Flavious Josephus And the Apostle Paul Were the Same Person?

1. Both of them were Pharisees.

2. Both were hellenistic Jews.

3. Both are known for their literary works, and both produced their works with upper-class Koine greek.

4. Josephus tells that he knows many ancient dramas. In acts, there's an episode that narrates Paul's conversion, and the saying "hard to kick against the goad" which has its origin in a drama (written by Jospehus himself?), is used.

5. Paul (paulos) means "small". Josephus mentions Mathhias Curtus as his forefather. Curtus means "small".

6. Paul was in his famous shipwreck when he was on his way to Rome. Josephus also mentions that he was shipwrecked when on his way to Rome.

7. Both were in Rome during the well-known fire in 64CE

8. Paul spent 2 years in inprisonment in Caesarea when waiting for his trip to Rome. Josephus was inprisoned for 2 years during the Jewish war in 67-69CE and he was apparently kept in Caesarea. He too ended up in Rome.

9. Paul disappears into desert for three years after the Damascus incident. Josephus mentions that he had been in the desert with a hermit named Banus for a period of three years when he was young.

10. After the Jewish war, Josephus became a traitor in the eyes of the Jews, and he lived in Rome, apparently for reasons of safety, and wrote his apologies. Paul became a traitor and a 'renegade of the law' in the eyes of the Jews, and there were many attempts to kill him.

Originally posted by Frank4YAHWEH
1. Both of them were Pharisees.

Paul said he had only been a Pharisee. Josephus said he had been a member of the Essenes and Sadducees before settling on being a Pharisee.

Originally posted by Frank4YAHWEH
5. Paul (paulos) means "small". Josephus mentions Mathhias Curtus as his forefather. Curtus means "small".

Give me a break.

Originally posted by Frank4YAHWEH

6. Paul was in his famous shipwreck when he was on his way to Rome. Josephus also mentions that he was shipwrecked when on his way to Rome.

Paul was three times shipwrecked (2 Corinthians 11:25) and once, "passed a night and a day on the deep."

There were 276 people involved in the shipwreck on Malta (Acts 27: 37) but when Josephus was shipwrecked, about 600 people were on the ship and perhaps only 80 were saved.

Mr. X got a flat tire driving across the country to Washington D.C. in 1996, Mr. Z got a flat tire driving to Washington D.C. in 2004, therefore Mr. X = Mr. Z. Yeah right.

Originally posted by Frank4YAHWEH

7. Both were in Rome during the well-known fire in 64CE

Really? Paul would probably include such a newsworthy event in one of his outgoing letters to overseas churches. Why don't you provide that reference for us? Oh that's right, no such thing exists, and Paul was almost certainly dead by then.

No way. Josephus was a secular Jew with few interests in religion other than interesting bits of superstition common in his era. Paul was fanatical (no offense). Josephus a member of the Sanhedrene? Never knew that

Paul was almost certainly dead by then.

If he was then that makes All his writings forgeries and frauds. His ramblings
seem to be the oldest ( older that the 4 gospels) and date fron no earlier than 60-60 CE.

I can't say I buy into this idea but, it does make one wonder...it's been a history-mystery why Josephus' writings survived the great purges of the great libraries when so many other historical writings (based on scraps of evidence like references to them in later writings) did not.

With the Church of Rome as one of the major players deciding which writings were to be destroyed (as herectical texts), then, well, maybe...maybe this is the big secret of the Roman/Constantinian church.

Something to ponder...

Originally posted by Frank4YAHWEH
Both of them were Pharisees.

When was paul a pharisee?

Both were hellenistic Jews.

Paul was from turkey. He might've been a mithraist.

Both are known for their literary works, and both produced their works with upper-class Koine greek

That would've been the case for any literary work spread throughout that part of the world.

And, since paul is from tarsus, what else would he speak?

which has its origin in a drama (written by Jospehus himself?), is used.

Interesting, but I don't think it adds much.

Paul (paulos) means "small".

From where? ALso, why concoct the story about the name being saul originally?

6. Paul was in his famous shipwreck when he was on his way to Rome. Josephus also mentions that he was shipwrecked when on his way to Rome.

Shipwrecks, however, were very common.

and there were many attempts to kill him.

???

The information is interesting. However, wouldnt' the people in contact with Paul-Josephus recognize the difference? Is there some similiartiy in the specifc writting styles that shows that its the same author?

Why would josephus spend his time posing as a jew when he's really a christian? Whats the motivation for the fraud?

Interesting ideas.

[edit on 10-5-2006 by Nygdan]

Nygdan - you make good points but I question those last two:

The information is interesting. However, wouldnt' the people in contact with Paul-Josephus recognize the difference? Is there some similiartiy in the specifc writting styles that shows that its the same author?

Why would josephus spend his time posing as a jew when he's really a christian? Whats the motivation for the fraud?

1) Well, where is there any non-biblical historical reference to Paul? I'm not saying that there isn't any - just that I'm not familiar with any.

2) In the first century, a large percentage of Christians were Jews. (Some would argue that they still are but that's a different discussion.) Christians were seen only as another sect of Judaism by Rome and the secular authorities as so many of them were, in fact. There were Gentile converts to Christianity as well, of course. In fact, that was one of the main "sticking points" - those crazy Christians let the Gentiles join their religion!

Anyway, I just thought that was an odd comment or oddly phrased to make a point about it being a fraud for a Christian to pose as a Jew since there was no posing required in those days.

Originally posted by Nygdan

When was paul a pharisee?

Phil 1:1 (was written by) Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Phil3:5 (Paul writing) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Peace greetings ALL,

Actually, I received this information from someone else and was just curious of what would be the responce and reaction to such a question and the statements that accompanied it.

Anyone who is interested in this subject should read "KING JESUS" by Ralph Ellis. One of the most amazing books I have ever read. I'm actually re-reading it because there was too much information to absorb in one take. This is an author who seems to have no motive other than the discovery of the truth. And he does not seem to be worried about stepping on any toes by telling it. If you read one book the rest of your life, let it be this one.

Sorry but this is just too misleading to pass up. The premise of the thread is comical and no serious historian would even consider the notion. The issue of Joesphus = Paul needs no address, it's silly. I can't imagine what would motivate such an uninformed conjecture. But I will clear up a few confusions I see in this thread.

Paul was originally a Pharisee - a very devout one. Trained under the famous Pharisee Gamaliel who is also mentioned in the book of Acts. Paul was present when Stephen was killed for being a Christian. His mission was to hunt down persecute and kill Christians. That is what makes his conversion so dramatic. Paul's incredible 180 turn is very strong evidence for the reality of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Nygdan

When was paul a pharisee?

Up until he was confronted by Jesus during the Damascus road incident when he converted to Christianity.
His own words...

Philippians 3:4-6

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinks that he has whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul was from turkey. He might've been a mithraist.

No way! First off he was from Tarsus which was in Greece - it was called Greece back then, now the area is in Turkey. He was aRoman citizen. Obviously he was very devout Jew - a high ranking Pharisee and most likely a member of the Sanhedrin himself.



[edit on 12/15/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Frank4YAHWEH


I have one that only Paul can claim and Josephus can not and did not...

Who taught Paul in Torah, who did he study under? And also for Josephus?

You can do this very same thing with many others in history that APPEAR to be the same. Try Bobby Or and Wayne Gretzky...

EDIT - I will give you the answer so you may look into this one.

Acts 22:3 ¶ I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.


[edit on 12/15/2008 by theindependentjournal]

No way, Paul was obviously Simon Magus.

Aren't you up to date on the latest radical fringe scholarship?

reply to post by Paul of Nisbis

Read "KING JESUS" by Ralph Ellis. It's a compendium of staggering historical detective work. He goes into incredible detail of many things being 'played with' here; including the identity of Paul and Josephus Flavius. Well worth a look if you're serious about truth. I'm not saying everything Mr Ellis puts forward is absolute, however, his work is an indespinsible tool for anyone interested in intelligent debate of such matters.

James - the half brother of Jesus - directly contradicts Paul's "by faith alone you are justified" doctrine: James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

He continues in James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

If you read the rest of the New Testament - excluding Paul - you will see emphasis on the obedience to the commandments is key. When Jesus was asked how to gain eternal life, he answered "follow the commandments". That is in Matthew and another book also.

John said: "If you claim to know him, but don't follow his commandments, then you are a liar".

I add that all 10 commandments apply, including the 4th one - the Sabbath commandment. The Sabbath also applies to Gentiles - read Isaiah 56. The strangers referred to there are Gentiles per my interpretation and also my study bible.

Search also on YouTube for "Paxeon", who is Scott McQuate, author of "Blueprint For Bondage", subtitled "The Secret Ancient Agenda for the Endtime Seduction of the Bride of Christ". He has a video there called "False Apostle Paul And The Roots Of Christianity". It's fast-paced - too fast - but you can pause it, drag the scroll bar back, etc.

Brian