Browning Machine Guns/.50 Cal Weapons

How long has the Brownings been in service now? I mean the ANM2s M1919 and the M2HBs?

The M2HB is the most sucessful Heavy MG ever produced up to now and is used on most militrary vehicles and foxholes 'n' stuff. There have been proposals to replace it but it still seems to be effective today

I always wondered, Why dont the Germans use .50 cal weapons?, Ive never happened to see them using it.

[edit on 2-5-2006 by Browno]

The Austrian military seem to be more US influenced than the Germans, They use/did have US tanks and some other US type of weaponry, Maybe they might use the M2HB

There is also a smaller version of the Barret Sniper rifle, I think it takes a 7.62 round, not sure.

Does anyone out there know what it is?

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Browno]

posted by Browno: “How long has the Browning been in service now? I mean the ANM2s M1919 and the M2HBs? The M2HB is the most successful Heavy MG ever produced up to now and is used on most military vehicles and foxholes 'n' stuff. [Edited by Don W]

I know “about” the two models or versions you refer to but I do not know any dates related to either weapon. Once upon a time the US military assigned a number that was the year of the adoption of the weapon. Obviously by the time the Garand was adopted - 1940 - it was assigned as the “M1" and the old system was gone.

There have been proposals to replace it but it still seems to be effective today I always wondered, Why don’t the Germans use .50 cal weapons?, I’ve never happened to see them using it.

Philosophy. If you notice the Brit's famous Spitfire was equipped with 8 .303 cal machine guns. The Republic P47 was first equipped with 6 then 8 of our preferred types, the Browning 50 cal or .5 mg. A 30 cal’s effective range is say, 700-1,000 yards, whereas a 50 cal’s effective range is closer to 1,500-2,000 yards. (Republic was the new name for old Sikorsky, when Russian Communism fell into great disfavor in the 1930s US). OTOH, you can carry 50% more rounds of 30 cal ammo than you can of 50 cal. If you know you’re going to be up close then you’d want more rounds. If the number of rounds is not limited - as on a ship - then you’d choose the 50 cal.

Same situation in M1 and M14 American issue rifles. I believe the M14 was issued in .308 cal. A very good round in terms of its ballistics and developmental history. Yet, we went to the M16 of 5.56 mm which is the same bore as our old time rim fire .22 cal. A soldier can carry 2 X as many rounds of 5.56 as he can of .30-06 - adopted in 1906 - or .308 ammo.

Europeans have always favored smaller rounds. I don’t know why. The US Army switched to the Beretta M9 in 9 mm cal away from the trustworthy Colt .45. I believe the change was motivated purely by politics and our consent to have a common round for NATO.

Beretta is the oldest gun manufacturer in the world and their products are 99.44% as good as German guns, but for me, if my life depended on it, and I had a choice, I’d carry a .45 Colt.

Soldiers of course, do not get to choose their weapons. That privilege goes to Congresspersons and Military Industrial Complex contractors. And fellows like Jack Abramoff.

www.army.mil...


[edit on 5/2/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Browno
There is also a smaller version of the Barret Sniper rifle, I think it takes a 7.62 round, not sure.

Does anyone out there know what it is?

To my knowledge the only non .50 rifle Barret makes is the M468 which is an assualt rifle chambered in 6.8mm SPC, and I would imagine they have made 5.56 models at some point or it could be done easily enough. Perhaps they have made a heavy model in the 7.62?




[edit on 2-5-2006 by warpboost]

I wouldn't mind if the US Army adopted the Barret upgrade kits, albeit more expensive than other alternatives like the XM8.

posted by Browno: “Why don’t the Germans use .50 cal weapons? There have been proposals to replace M2HB it but it still seems to be effective today. [Edited by Don W]

The America Armed Forces entered the 20th century armed with the M1903 Springfield 30 caliber bolt action repeating rifle. The ‘03 featured a licensed Mauser action that may have had some antecedents in the English Enfield version of the Mauser. The "Ought-Three" as it was called, featured a built-in box magazine that held 3 or 4 rounds. This allowed the shooter to fire off several rounds very quickly. This is the weapon Sgt. York used to win his Congressional Medal of Honor in WW1. This action is still found in the two most popular bolt actions, the Winchester Model 70 and the Remington Model 700. Springfield was the Massachusetts Armory operated by the War Department back in those halcyon days when the government did governmental things itself.

Until the end of the Korean War, soldiers and Marines were trained as sharpshooters. The M1 - 8 shots - and the later but short lived M14 - 15 shots - were perfect for that theory of infantry warfare. The massed assaults by the Chinese Volunteers - PLA in disguise - that confronted the US in Korea after November, 1950, showed us that era of shooting one aimed shot at a time was over.

It was time to reexamine the tactics of rapid more or less unaimed fire developed in War 2 by the Germans and Russians on the Eastern Front. The new formula was to cover the forward movement of your fellow soldiers with rapid fire. Keep the enemy’s head down! If he can’t look at you, he can’t shoot you. Colt made the AR15 which morphed into the M16. Also, the new 5.56 mm bullet does things to the human body the .30-06 bullet never dreamed of doing. And it ain't good.

Replace the Browning? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.


[edit on 5/3/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Browno
How long has the Brownings been in service now? I mean the ANM2s M1919 and the M2HBs?

I dont know the other MG you name, but the M2HB was developed in 1938. The HB version with changeable barrel was developed around 1978.

Originally posted by donwhite

There have been proposals to replace it but it still seems to be effective today I always wondered, Why don’t the Germans use .50 cal weapons?, I’ve never happened to see them using it.

Philosophy. ...

Europeans have always favored smaller rounds. I don’t know why. The US Army switched to the Beretta M9 in 9 mm cal away from the trustworthy Colt .45. I believe the change was motivated purely by politics and our consent to have a common round for NATO. ...

Well, when we are speaking of Germany its quite the opposite. It is true that "Europeans never jumped on the .45 bandwagon, but that wasnt because of its "preference for smaller rounds", it was and is because of the questionable usefulness of a .45 as a general issue sidearm. The 9mm was the natural choice as Nato standard, but why did it even BECOME so widespread and well-liked? Because it was and is the best for most militaries´ doctrines, and for those that know that BIGGER doesnt equal BETTER.

Germany in particular was always looking for "more bang for the buck". They used the strongest rifle cartridge in WW1 and 2; were the undisputed kings of cannon forging - cannons that ever grew in size - for the first half of the last century; while, like you describe, the allies put an array of MGs on their fighter planes the Germans had 2-4 proper cannons from 13mm-30mm; they built the "Acht-acht" Flak, unrivalled for many years, while most other nations thought large anti-air artillery was becoming obsolete.

Of course the new german political course and the ideology of the Bundeswehr didnt favor powerful destructing devices. Still, contemporary german 7.62mm and 9mm cartridges have a higher-than-usual operating pressure, the Pzf3 might be the most powerful unguided shoulder-launched RPG, and with the "Monarc" system the new frigates will have, uncommon for modern ships, a large artillery gun again. The German "Gepard" mobile anti-aircraft gun is the largest modern system I know of with 2x35mm.



[edit on 3/5/2006 by Lonestar24]

Originally posted by Browno
...
I always wondered, Why dont the Germans use .50 cal weapons?, Ive never happened to see them using it.
...

Because Germans can afford proper automatic cannons

The M2 saw limited service in the early years of the Bundeswehr because much of the arsenal were leftovers from the US. It was used for example on the M39, until all these vehicles were replaced by more modern and capable equipment.

Today M2´s are mainly used by the Marine just like they are used in other Navies: as close-in protection because they punch nice holes into small boat hulls. They also see limited use on the "Serval" KSK jeep, but apparently the HK GMG is preferred - the Serval has MG3s in the front and back anyway...



M3M machine guns are also part of a proposal for a mid-life update of the CH-53G helicopters, and are used on the Sea Lynx helicopters:




So, why doesnt Germany field the M2 regularly?
Because they can afford proper automatic cannons

Now seriously, the M2 never fit into the Bundeswehr doctrine. The experience of WW2 was proof that the MG42, later MG3, was absolutely sufficient as secondary armament. It was also found that heavy MGs arent suitable for a mobile battle as it occured during WW2 and, more importantly, was expected during the cold war. The simple truth is: whatever requires something heavier than 1200 RPM of 7.62mm Nato should rather be fought with a real cannon and not an MG on steroids.

The Bundeswehr never could have upheld air superiority against the "red hordes" on its own, so the focus was put on building up the army as a predominantly mechanized force to interdict the ground advance of the Waesaw Pact. The M2 doesnt serve a purpose here, you need some real punch and thats why there is (was) a wide array of machine cannons from 20mm upwards available, also on lafettes for infantry use.

In short: The M2 is well suited to fight light infantry/insurgents (or to occasionally level a 3rd world village )

The Germans however had to be prepared to destroy an armored enemy that had a fearsome punch.

I do admit they are very reliable and have a good service record, They also can be mounted almost anywhere on anything.

Can be fitted with various types of grips to suit the firer
www.liberatorcrew.com...
www.liberatorcrew.com...

The ones mounted in the spitfires wings/allied ww2 aircraft were decent, Its light for a Browning MG too and still provides heavy firepower
blindkat.hegewisch.net...
www.rememuseum.org.uk...
www.ferretscoutcar.info...

There was an attempt to make one a hand held GPMG but was a poor move
www.ferretscoutcar.info...

They can just be mounted almost anywhere!
www.navweaps.com...

Here's another .50cal sniper rifle that tried to compete the Barrett M82,
The Pauza P50
www.securityarms.com...
www.freshourmfg.com...

[edit on 4-5-2006 by Browno]