Freemasonry question...

Originally posted by Tamahu
No, the term "Black Lodge" is not in reference to Prince Hall Lodges(if you've read the previous posts in this thread you should have noticed this).

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Might this be refering to Prince Hall Masonry?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
As for "Black Lodges", this could possibly refer to the Prince Hall Affiliation, who are predominately African-American.

Originally posted by ac707
Yes there are other lodges, and these lodges are more known in the African-American lodges.

Originally posted by Ralph_The_Wonder_Llama
"Black Masonry" is something created for African-Americans.

Thank you for your reply Tamahu. Are you a Scottish Rite Mason? You seem to be more Theosophically inclined. I was not saying that I subscribe to the belief that "Black Lodges" mean negro lodges. Just that it seemed to be the popular belief.

The link you supplied tells me what I wanted to know. That the Vengeance grades are refered to as Black Masonry/ Black Lodge. This is where I think the premise comes from.

What I am searching for is an answer from a Scottish Rite Mason to verify my question:

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
My question is this; Is it true that the Templar degrees of the Scottish Rite are grouped together as "Black Lodge," "Encampment," and "The Lodge of Vengeance?"

I have read that the Templar degrees are conducted in rooms draped in black velvet and that black gloves replace the customary white.

The grades that involve the use of Black are known as the Grades of the Dagger or more commmonly; The Elect of Fifteen, The Master Elect of Nine, and The Chevalier Kadosh. All are represented with black drapings and the presence of the assassin's dagger.

[edit on 13/11/2006 by Beelzebubba]

Beelzebubba,,

I can't answer your questions but congratulations on the handle. I needed a good laugh.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Beelzebubba,,

I can't answer your questions but congratulations on the handle. I needed a good laugh.

My pleasure Fitzgibbon.

Originally posted by Roark
Some blokes join for the fraternal aspects of Freemasonry, others are into esoterica and history. Some join largely because of the charity work.

This is very true, i know one mason who was horribly burned in a house fire as a child, he is covered in scars to this day and now in his 40s and the fire left him an orphan.. when this man.. then a child, had no family to speak of.. and no money for his recovery, it was the shriners that gave him his life back. it is for this reason more then any that he joined the masons.. so that he could advance high enough to join the shrine and help kids like him that had been burned and scarred for life. His best friend joined the order as well because he saw the good that his friend was doing as a member of the shrine

I think we all (Masons, that is) join Masonry for different reasons. Some join it for family continuity (my case even if it skipped a generation), some join it for networking and professional advantage, others join to give back what was given to them.

Despite the naysayers, the reasons are as varied as the individuals themselves.

Greetings Beelzebubba

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
Thank you for your reply Tamahu. Are you a Scottish Rite Mason? You seem to be more Theosophically inclined.

No, I'm not a Scottish Rite Mason.

However, I do study FreeMasonry, Theosophy, Tibetan Buddhism and the Gnostic tradition of Samael Aun Weor(among other things).

I was not saying that I subscribe to the belief that "Black Lodges" mean negro lodges. Just that it seemed to be the popular belief.

And the popular belief is false.

For FreeMasonry to be passed down to occidental people from the Original Man, and then for occidentals to turn around and act as if they're the owners of it, by saying that there is a newer "Black Masonry" for "negros", would be rediculous.

The link you supplied tells me what I wanted to know. That the Vengeance grades are refered to as Black Masonry/ Black Lodge. This is where I think the premise comes from.

No it does not, actually.

As I said:

But this "Black Masonry" that C.W.L. refers to; is not the same as what we call "The Black Lodge"(the latter of who's Head is Javhe or Yawhe who is the Chief of Demons).

Also, this "Black Masonry" he refers to, is not the same as Prince Hall Masonry(and, I repeat, Prince Hall Masonry is not necessarily "The Black Lodge").

There are many levels of symbolism in regard to color, and they all have to be taken in context.

The Black Lodge is somewhat comparable to "the Dark Side" of Star Wars, we might say.

The symbolism of "Black Masonry" that C.W. Leadbeater wrote about, is something else.

Also, the "White Masonry" that he refers to is not synonymous with the Great White Lodge.

Although I'm quite sure that C.W. Leadbeater would say that the "Black Masonry"(which is not racial) and "White Masonry" he refers to, are both of the White Lodge.





Regards





[edit on 14-11-2006 by Tamahu]

There are definitions of the White Lodge and Black Lodge here:

www.gnosticteachings.org...

White Brotherhood

That ancient collection of pure souls who maintain the highest and most sacred of sciences: White Magic or White Tantrism. It is called White due to its purity and cleanliness. This “Brotherhood” or “Lodge” includes human beings of the highest order from every race, culture, creed and religion, and of both sexes.

Black Lodge

The diabolic intelligence which seeks to pull souls into attachment to desire-sensation and the awakening of the consciousness (negatively) that is trapped within the ego.

Excerpted from The Perfect Matrimony : "From the dawn of life, a great battle has raged between the powers of Light and the powers of Darkness. The secret root of that battle lies in sex. Gods and Demons live in eternal struggle. The Gods defend the doctrine of chastity. The Demons hate chastity. In sex is found the root of the conflict between Gods and Demons... There are Masters of the Great White Lodge. There are Masters of the Great Black Lodge. There are disciples of the Great White Lodge. There are disciples of the Great Black Lodge. The disciples of the Great White Lodge know how to move consciously and positively in the Astral Body. The disciples of the Great Black Lodge also know how to travel in the Astral Body... The White Magician worships the inner Christ. The Black Magician worships Satan. This is the "I," the me, myself, the reincarnating ego. In fact, the "I" is the specter of the threshold itself. It continually reincarnates to satisfy desires. The "I" is memory. In the "I" are all the memories of our ancient personalities. The "I" is Ahriman, Lucifer, Satan."

Samael Aun Weor on Huiracocha(Arnold Krumm-Heller founder of the F.R.A. and an original member of the pre-Aleister Crowley O.T.O.), racism, and the White Lodge:

Igneous Rose






We do not accept incongruent statements as for instance:

Master Huiracocha states that black and yellow skinned people cannot belong to the White Lodge because it is only for people who belong to the white race. We cannot accept any type of racial prejudice, because the White Lodge is universal. Masters from all races exist within our venerable White Lodge. We must not forget that Master Moria and Master Kout Humi belong to the yellow race. The white race is not superior nor inferior than other races. Simply, it is different, that is all.

We also disagree with Master Huiracocha’s despise for Oriental wisdom. Christ taught three ways in order to reach the union with the Intimate. When he was preaching to the multitudes, when he was mystically exalted, he showed us the way of Ramakrishna, Kempis, and Francis of Assisi. This is the path of Anthony of Padua and Theresa of Jesus. This is the Mystical Path (the way of the Monk). When Christ was walking with Magdalene, the repented prostitute, when he was among publicans and sinners, fishermen and wine drinkers, he showed us the Gnostic Path. When he retired to the solitude of the desert for forty days and forty nights, he then taught the way of Oriental Yoga (the way of the Yogi). The seven rays of cosmic evolution are synthesized in these three ways that the Nazarene showed.

Therefore, we cannot despise Oriental wisdom. The Innermost of all humans who are fastened to the wheel of births and deaths belong to these three ways. With all this, we sustain that sexual magic between husband and wife is the way in order to reach Nirvana. Therefore, we cannot accept the racial prejudice of Master Huiracocha (or any Master) by any means.

The Elohim have no preference for anyone. All human beings without distinction of sex, race, creed or color are beloved children of the Father (Kether). ALL have the same rights.

We also cannot accept the absurd thesis of Master Huiracocha (or any Master), who state that it is a sin for a man of one race to become married with a woman of another race, and that the bastard children are children of the devil. We recognize that Master Huiracocha is a Guru of the Universal White Fraternity. It is evident for me that he is an Archbishop of the Gnostic Church. Yet, he committed a lamentable mistake when he made these statements in his course of Magic Runes.

There is no doubt that if the Guru Huiracocha had a physical body he would rectify those errors. Humans commit errors, however, only those who are stubborn remain in the error.

Some Western occultists, such as Aleister Crowley, also accused H.P. Blavatsky of dealing with "'n-word's"(in reference to Tibetans, Indians, Tamils, etc.).





Regards







[edit on 14-11-2006 by Tamahu]

Conclusion


What then are we to make of Blavatsky? She was not like her colonialist, materialist, and missionary peers. As an avowed Buddhist, HPB claimed to be in touch with the living tradition, and she saw the Buddha and the lamas who upheld his tradition in Tibet as the pinnacle of human possibility, and not as the ''n-word's' and 'fakirs' her European peers perceived. For this, she was an object of Christian spite and scholarly scorn.

Despite her appropriations from Western works on Buddhism (and even despite her acknowledgement that not infrequently she personally composed letters ascribed to Mahatmas),(61) there is enough evidence, gathered carefully and methodically, to demonstrate that Blavatsky had access to Tibetan Buddhist sources which no other Westerner during her time had. Her works are by no means merely strings of plagiarisms, but rather very cogent arguments, supplemented by masses of data, that her readers should believe Buddhist claims that there is a perennial philosophy, in the possession of Adepts, which explains the origins of the world and leads to salvation from it.

There it is.

Her "The Voice of the Silence" was first printed under the auspices of The Panchen Lama or Tashi Lama himself.



See the following thread as well:


www.abovetopsecret.com...





Regards

So..explain what this has really to do with Masonry, be it Blue, Red or whatever..and what conspiracy are you illuminating to us?

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
[What I am searching for is an answer from a Scottish Rite Mason to verify my question:


My question is this; Is it true that the Templar degrees of the Scottish Rite are grouped together as "Black Lodge," "Encampment," and "The Lodge of Vengeance?"

No. In the Mother Jurisdiction of the World (Southern Jurisdiction USA), there are three Templar degrees in the grouping known as the Council of Kadosh. These degrees are Knight Commander of the Temple (27°), Scottish Knight of St. Andrew (29°), and Knight Kadosh (30°). The 33°, styled Sovereign Grand Inspector General, also possesses Templar characteristics.

In the Northern Jurisdiction, the 27°, 29°, and 30° all fall under the grouping of the Consistory, which in the Southern Jurisdiction is limited to the 31° and 32°.

There is nothing known as the "Black Lodge" or "Lodge of Vengeance" in Freemasonry; however, "Encampments" are organizations of Knights Templar in the York Rite in some countries. In the US, they are called "Commanderies of Knights Templar" with the exception of the national body, which is styled "Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States".

I have read that the Templar degrees are conducted in rooms draped in black velvet and that black gloves replace the customary white.

It depends on the actual degree, the version used, and the scene of the degree. For example, in the Pike version of the degree of Knight Kadosh, the ceremony is didvided into 4 major scenes, with the first 4 having the Council draped in black, with the Knights wearing black robes, black hats, black gloves, and swords (along with white chasubles). In the last scene, the Lodge is draped in white, with the Brethren wearing white robes with black chasubles.

The grades that involve the use of Black are known as the Grades of the Dagger or more commmonly; The Elect of Fifteen, The Master Elect of Nine, and The Chevalier Kadosh. All are represented with black drapings and the presence of the assassin's dagger.

The Elu degrees are Elu of the Nine, Elu of the Fifteen, and Elu of the Twelve, which are, respectively, the 9°, 10°, and 11°. The dagger appears on the various aprons of these degrees. However, these degrees are part of the Lodge of Perfection, which continues the Hiramic Legend, and are not Templar degrees proper.

Thank you for clearing that up for me Masonic Light.

Originally posted by Tamahu


For FreeMasonry to be passed down to occidental people from the Original Man, and then for occidentals to turn around and act as if they're the owners of it, by saying that there is a newer "Black Masonry" for "negros", would be rediculous.

But Freemasonry was not "passed down to occidental people from the Original Man". Freemasonry was itself founded by occidental people.

Many have attempted, for example, to paint Pike as a racist for stating that the common ancestors of Europeans and the inhabitants of Hindustan and the Panjab (i.e., white folks) were the fathers of science, art, and true spirituality.

Some have even used Pike's words against him here to pretend he was a member of the KKK! Nevertheless, the historian or anthropologist would have a difficult time in proving Pike wrong on this. We must remember that the descendants of the Panjab, our ancestors as European-Americans, were delving into science, philosophy, and mathematics while the other tribes were busy sacrificing their children to their monstrous gods, sticking bones in their noses, and practicing voodoo.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Freemasonry was itself founded by occidental people.

The modern Lodges were, yes.

FreeMasonry itself however, was founded by the Elohim, Dhyan-Chohans, etc. who are the Original Man(or Manas), in the sense that they are Original Mind or Primordial Mind(Manas).

But, the first physical-etheric Gods who we have all descended from, were of a very dark color physically.

Many have attempted, for example, to paint Pike as a racist for stating that the common ancestors of Europeans and the inhabitants of Hindustan and the Panjab (i.e., white folks) were the fathers of science, art, and true spirituality.

I need to study Albert Pike more, but I think he simply means that the Indo-Aryans and Irano-Aryans were the main fore-fathers of the Europeans.

But I don't think he would deny that these Aryans received the Occult Sciences from the more Ancient Nagas and Rishis who had already Mastered the Buddhic-Tantric Sciences.

Albert Pike had had to have read and respected the works of Godfrey Higgins and H.P. Blavatsky, even if he didn't fully agree with everything in them.

And I think that Albert Pike may have actually been a member of the original KKK(which was established to conceal the secret fo the Kuklos perhaps?) which is not necessarily a bad thing per-se', as from what I understand, the original KKK was not hateful.

We must remember that the descendants of the Panjab, our ancestors as European-Americans, were delving into science, philosophy, and mathematics while the other tribes were busy sacrificing their children to their monstrous gods, sticking bones in their noses, and practicing voodoo.

I tend to agree more with Elijah Muhammad, and Manly P. Hall on this(see his "Collected Writings Volume 1"), when they say that Europeans were digging roots out of the ground and eating raw meat as savages, while the dark-skinned people(probably Dravidians, Tamils, etc.(Eastern Kush-ites)) of the Indus-Kush were sitting on chairs in palaces with libraries full of books.

The Lost Word - (Page 411)








If, after the beginning of persecution against Buddhism, the Arhats were no more heard of in India, it was because, their vows prohibiting retaliation, they had to leave the country and seek solitude and security in China, Tibet, Japan, and elsewhere. The sacerdotal powers of the Brâhmans being at that time unlimited, the Simons and Apolloniuses of Buddhism had as much chance of recognition and appreciation by the Brâhmanical Irenæuses and Tertullians as had their successors in the Judæan and Roman worlds. It was a historical rehearsal of the dramas that were enacted centuries later in Christendom. As in the case of the so-called “Heresiarchs” of Christianity, it was not for rejecting the Vedas or the sacred Syllable that the Buddhist Arhats were persecuted, but for understanding too well the secret meaning of both. It was simply because their knowledge was regarded as dangerous and their presence in India unwelcome, that they had to emigrate. Nor were there a smaller number of Initiates among the Brâhmans themselves. Even today one meets most wonderfully-gifted Sâddhus and Yogîs, obliged to keep themselves unnoticed and in the shadow, not only owing to the absolute secresy imposed upon them at their Initiation but also for fear of the Anglo-Indian tribunals and courts of law, wherein judges are determined to regard as charlatanry, imposition, and fraud, the exhibition of, or claim to, any abnormal powers, and one may judge of the past by the present. Centuries after our era the Initiates of the inner temples and the Mathams (monastic communities) chose a superior council, presided over by an all-powerful Brahm-Ãtmâ, the Supreme Chief of all those Mahâtmâs. This pontificate could be exercised only by a Brâhman who had reached a certain age, and he it was who was the sole guardian of the mystic formula, and he was the Hierophant who created great Adepts. He alone could explain the meaning of the sacred word, AUM, and of all the religious symbols and rites. And whosoever among those Initiates of the Supreme Degree revealed to a profane a single one of the truths, even the smallest of the secrets entrusted to him, had to die; and he who received the confidence was put to death. But there existed, and still exists to this day, a Word far surpassing the mysterious monosyllable, and which renders him who comes into possession of its key nearly the equal of Brahman. The Brahmâtmâs alone possess this key, and we know that to this day there are two (Page 412) great Initiates in Southern India who possess it. It can be passed only at death, for it is the “Lost Word.” No torture, no human power, could force its disclosure by a Brâhman who knows it; and it is well guarded in Tibet.


Yet this secresy and this profound mystery are indeed disheartening, since they alone—the Initiates of India and Tibet—could thoroughly dissipate the thick mists hanging over the history of Occultism, and force its claims to be recognized.







The Delphic injunction, “Know thyself,” seems for the few in this age. But the fault ought not to be laid at the door of the Adepts, who have done all that could be done, and have gone as far as Their rules permitted, to open the eyes of the world. Only, while the European shrinks from public obloquy and the ridicule unsparingly thrown on Occultists, the Asiatic is being discouraged by his own Pandits. These profess to labour under the gloomy impression that no Bîga Vidyâ, no Arhatship (Adeptship), is possible during the Kali Yuga (the “Black Age”) we are now passing through. Even the Buddhists are taught that the Lord Buddha is alleged to have prophesied that the power would die out in “one millennium after His death.” But this is an entire mistake. In the Dîgha Nikâya the Buddha says:


Hear, Subhadra! The world will never be without Rahats, if the ascetics in my congregations well and truly keep my precepts.


A similar contradiction of the view brought forward by the Brâhmans is made by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gîtâ, and there is further the actual appearance of many Sâddhus and miracle-workers in the past, and even in the present age. The same holds good for China and Tibet.


Among the commandments of Tsong-Kha-pa there is one that enjoins the Rahats (Arhats) to make an attempt to enlighten the world, including the “white barbarians,” every century, at a certain specified period of the cycle. Up to the present day none of these attempts has been very successful. Failure has followed failure. Have we to explain the fact by the light of a certain prophecy?









It is said that up to the time when Phan-chhen-rin-po-chhe (the Great Jewel of Wisdom) [A title of the Tda-shu-Illum-po Lama.] condescends to be reborn in the land of the P’helings (Westerners), and appearing as the Spiritual Conqueror (Chom-den-da), destroys the errors and ignorance of the ages,

it will be of little use to try to uproot the misconceptions of P’heling-pa (Europe): her sons will listen to no one.










Tibetan Prophecies - (Page 413) Another prophecy declares that the Secret Doctrine shall remain in all its purity in Bhod-yul (Tibet), only to the day that it is kept free from foreign invasion.

The very visits of Western natives, however friendly, would be baneful to the Tibetan populations. This is the true key to Tibetan exclusiveness.

Regards





[edit on 20-11-2006 by Tamahu]

The Secret Doctrine of Anahuac


"The Brahmans got their cosmogony, arts, culture and science from the famous Naga-
Mayans, later called Danavas.


The Nagas and the Brahmans used the sacred symbol of the feathered serpent, an
irrefutable Mexican or Mayan symbol.

The Upanishads contain a treatise on the science of the serpents, or, in other words, the
science of occult knowledge.

The Nagas (serpents) of esoteric Buddhism, are perfect, authentic and self-realized men,
by virtue of their occult knowledge and they are the protectors of Buddha’s Law, because
they correctly interpret his metaphysical doctrines.

The crown, in the shape of an asp — the Thermuthis — belongs to Isis, our individual
inner Divine Mother Kundalini (we all have our own).

Kundalini, the Igneous Serpent of our magical powers, coiled in the coccygeal magnetic
center (base of the spinal column), flashes likes a lightning bolt.

The great Kabir Jesus of Nazareth would never have advised his disciples to be as wise as
the serpent if it had been the symbol of evil. Neither would have the Ophites, the
Egyptian Gnostic sages of the fraternity of the Serpent, adored a living snake in their
liturgy as the symbol of divine Sophia (wisdom), If the reptile had been related to the
powers of evil."

- Samael Aun Weor

And the Nagas that taught the Brahmins everything, were very dark-skinned God-Men.





The Brahmin Nagarjuna is converted into a Naga(Serpent)-Buddha:

The Waters of Life








Left: An Egyptian wall painting of an Initiate drinking from the Sacred Waters, given by the Divine Mother through the Tree of Life.

Right: A Tibetan wall painting of the Initiate Nagarjuna drinking of the ambrosial waters which sustain his inner illumination.

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. - John 4:14

These two paintings seen side by side clearly illustrate the universality of the Christic Doctrine: the Tree of Life (the spinal column in the microcosmic Human Being) is illuminated by the waters of life (Sexual Energy), providing the force and sustanance which illuminates the soul. There is no doubt that the Egyptian Initiates and the Tibetan Initiates studied the same knowledge; what is unknown to modern humanity is where they received such knowledge. The answer is here in these paintings: they received it internally, from their own Tree of Life, through the alchemical work of Transmutation. The Waters of Life, given by the Divine Mother (the feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit, Binah) illuminate the soul. Without the waters, there is no light. Without the waters, there is only Suffering and death. Therefore, when the cultures who had this knowledge turned away from the proper use of the sexual energy, those cultures lost their inner connection to the fount of all Wisdom, and they entered into decline and decay. The same applies to the individual person.

Regards





[edit on 20-11-2006 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Roark
The term "The Craft", when used to describe Masonry, does not come from "witchcraft".

As to the question "why Freemasonry?", well... it's different for everyone. The reason you haven't received what you consider to be a satisfactory answer could be that people simply don't want to share something that personal. Nobody speaks for the whole membership, that's for sure. Some blokes join for the fraternal aspects of Freemasonry, others are into esoterica and history. Some join largely because of the charity work.

It refers to "Stonecraft" as workers in stone were called in the way back time...

Originally posted by sergeant_tibbs
Do you know the meaning behind the tradition(s)?

Yes, the Craft uses allegorical symbolism to teach the history behind the traditions.

Originally posted by Tamahu


But, the first physical-etheric Gods who we have all descended from, were of a very dark color physically.

I don't think that gods have color or any other physical attributes, but if you can provide a photo, I'd be willing to concede.

I need to study Albert Pike more, but I think he simply means that the Indo-Aryans and Irano-Aryans were the main fore-fathers of the Europeans.

He does indeed state this, both in his published writings and esoteric ceremonial.

But I don't think he would deny that these Aryans received the Occult Sciences from the more Ancient Nagas and Rishis who had already Mastered the Buddhic-Tantric Sciences.

He would indeed deny it (and actually did, both in his writings and esoteric ceremonial).

It was Pike's belief that the ancient Aryans were the possessors of the original and pure religion, which were corrupted by the Egyptians, Hebrews, and even the Aryans' own descendants (Hindus, Zoroastrians, and modern Europeans and Americans).

Pike was of the opinion that the ancient Aryans constituted the first real civilization and religion, and that all others were derived from them in a degraded form. For example, he believed that the seven potencies of the Deity recognized by the ancient Aryans were misunderstood by Hebrew scholars at Babylon when they first became exposed to the doctrines of Pythagoras. Misunderstanding the esoteric meaning of the Tetractys, they instituted ten emanations instead of the original seven, which became the Sephiroth (see Pike's "Lectures On The Indo-Aryans" and Legenda B of the 32nd degree).

Albert Pike had had to have read and respected the works of Godfrey Higgins and H.P. Blavatsky, even if he didn't fully agree with everything in them.

I don't recall Pike mentioning Higgins, but refers to Blavatsky as a charlatan on p. 135 of his "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees".

And I think that Albert Pike may have actually been a member of the original KKK(which was established to conceal the secret fo the Kuklos perhaps?) which is not necessarily a bad thing per-se', as from what I understand, the original KKK was not hateful.

I agree that it was not necessarily a bad thing to have been an original member; however, there is not the slightest bit of evidence that Pike was a member. In the abovementioned book, Pike relates that outside of Masonry, the only Society which he belonged was the Oddfellows. Furthermore, even then, the KKK required Protestant Christianity as a prerequisite to membership, and Pike despised sectarian societies, as is evidenced by many passages in "Morals and Dogmas".

I tend to agree more with Elijah Muhammad, and Manly P. Hall on this(see his "Collected Writings Volume 1"), when they say that Europeans were digging roots out of the ground and eating raw meat as savages, while the dark-skinned people(probably Dravidians, Tamils, etc.(Eastern Kush-ites)) of the Indus-Kush were sitting on chairs in palaces with libraries full of books.

Where did Hall say such a thing? That an imposter such as Elijah Muhammed said it is not surprising, or at least no more so than Farrakhan saying that white folks were created by black scientists. Anthropology, however, nominally agrees with Pike.

EDIT

[edit on 22-11-2006 by Tamahu]

EDIT- Double Post

[edit on 22-11-2006 by Tamahu]