Your challenge is accepted - FACTS vs. SYMBOLISM

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hi Managerie,

Have you perceived that Queenannie is not a Christian?

Have you perceived that your words have fallen far beyond the limits of your personal authority?



As well as served as witness to your own reluctance to follow the teachings of our LORD?

None of the four horsemen are ‘the antichrist’ masquerading as Christ: because that would be a trick. God would not purposely trick us by revealing something false within the frame of the integrity of His Divine Seal. The seals tell us that all 7 images can be trusted and as such, are not deception.

God is not tricking us by revealing something false, he is revealing the truth.

Anit- Christ comes to power portraying himself as God on earth. The Abomination of desolation.

The Great Deceiver.......................clear enough...............

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hi Managerie,

Have you perceived that Queenannie is not a Christian?

Have you perceived that your words have fallen far beyond the limits of your personal authority?

As well as served as witness to your own reluctance to follow the teachings of our LORD?

Lord, nice term.....................Baal?

Your master?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

None of the four horsemen are ‘the antichrist’ masquerading as Christ: because that would be a trick. God would not purposely trick us by revealing something false within the frame of the integrity of His Divine Seal. The seals tell us that all 7 images can be trusted and as such, are not deception.

God is not tricking us by revealing something false, he is revealing the truth.

Anit- Christ comes to power portraying himself as God on earth. The Abomination of desolation.

The Great Deceiver.......................clear enough...............

Oh, the Anti-Christ spirit is a great deceiver all right. Of that, there is no doubt.

Sun, I have explained some of what I see in the Word and my reasonings why. I would like to see what your reasoning is and your biblical backing for your views. If you recall the challenge, it was that I would help show the error of the ways of the pre-trib view. I need a cohesive explanation as to the end-time plan and how you see that supported in scripture so that I can compare notes.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Hi Queenannie, I perceive that you have some insights into the spirit of what is going on on the books. I would like to review insights with you further on these things.

Hi Managerie,

Have you perceived that Queenannie is not a Christian?

Hi Sun,

I have decided nothing, but want to hear what further insights to what this person understands. Dreams, visions, and insights come from even the most unlikely sources as we understand God's sovereignty in that all vessels serve him and dreams are given even to Nebuchnadnezzar and Pilate's wife. If we are to test the spirits as 1 John says, then that spirit must speak, mustn't it?

And if this person is not a believer, than 1 Cor 5 reminds us not to judge those without the camp, but rather only those who should know better.
Nevertheless, I want to hear what this person has to say.

Sun, I would really like to hear your views on the rapture with biblical backing so I can see from where the conclusions derive as I have tried to do for you.

have never gotten anything but immediate and staunch resistance when I've shared the fruits of my studies--something that doesn't offend me or surprise me, since really I expect it.

Yes, these interpretations do seem totally wrong when compared with the copious amounts of so-called biblical scholastics offered by the preceding generations of the last dozen or so centuries.

However, the bible is the reed by which we are to measure, and against that, the popular opinion does not stand.

One would be hard pressed to find symbolic examples in the bible to support the ideas that most accept as truth. I searched for proof, beyond the standardly promoted set of cut and paste verses that are offered as testament to these ideas. What I found was astounding, and it in no way upholds these teachings.

For the most part, those who desire to follow Christ and His teachings and example actually follow the opinions and guess-ulations of mankind. Going to seminary school or somehow finding a niche as a man of the cloth in no way guarantees that the intepretation is not one of a 'private' nature (2 Peter 1:20). Neither does a majority vote by human hands give any authority to that which is not supported by scripture.

At first glance on what you have written so far, these above statements are very true for me. What I often find is that, among people who claim Christ as their Lord, the immediate criticism and denial comes from those who still seem self-focused. The desire or worse, need, to be right outweighs the humble desire to share and discover the truth of the Word.
The moment that happens, the defensive walls go up, and the divisions which the Lord hates show themselves before the world. Love does not do that. Love listens, discusses, yields to sound reason and sound doctrine, and insights that the Holy Spirit confirms in us. Love regards the sharing of the truth and seeing it go throughout the world as something that must tread human pride into the dust.

I also have seen that much of churchdom no longer believes the following promises:

But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. (John 14:26)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. (John 16:13)

Consider what I say; for the Lord shall give thee understanding in all things. (2 Timothy 2:7)

And they said one to another, Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures. (Luke 24: 32, 45)

And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him. (1 John 2:27)
Oh how love I thy law! It is my meditation all the day. Thy commandments make me wiser than mine enemies; For they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers; For thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the aged, Because I have kept thy precepts. I have refrained my feet from every evil way, That I might observe thy word. I have not turned aside from thine ordinances; For thou hast taught me. How sweet are thy words unto my taste! Yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through thy precepts I get understanding: Therefore I hate every false way. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, And light unto my path. (Psalm 119:97-105)

Yes, now you must be approved of men and go to seminary and read what others have said. The Lord can no longer teach you His ways or open the mind to understand the scriptures which He directly implies are locked to some. I was interviewing a Christian University and few of the questions from some dealt with my walk with Jesus. One in particular wanted to know what positions I have held in the church (approval of men) and what was my favorite Christian author (must listen to men, not God). Jesus spoke at that moment and told me I was talking to a Pharisee. I know my eyes widened at the recognition of the revelation. I found it a little shocking since it confirmed part of the state of the mainstream church as the coming of the man-child ministry approaches.

I appreciate in particular your understanding of the Greek. I will cut out and print what you wrote so I can consider it more carefully this week.
Thanks for your inputs.

Noah's ark was a prophetic type. Noah was 7 days in the ark (secret place of the most high) for 7 years of tribulation in which we are seperated from the world at some level. When the wrath/flood started, Noah was protected on the earth 40 days before he lifted off. So shall we be 40 days on the earth during the start of the wrath in the day of the Lord that last a year (Isa 34:8). We will be up in Heaven with the Lord for about a year (Note Noah was in the Ark for about a year) while the day of the Lord progresses in wrath, then we return with Him (Rev 19) to finish off the last of the enemy. As Matt 24 says, "as it was in the days of Noah".

Yes, we are told that the story of Noah is a prophetic parallel to the coming of the son of man. As you say, Noah is in the ark for the 7 years of the tribulation. So, you understand that, and yet why do you quit reading. Starting at Matthew 24 vs 40, you see the rapture. Jesus has come for his bride, those whose lamps are full of oil and are prepared and watching for the bridegroom.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Genesis 7:7 So Noah, with his sons, his wife, and his sons' wives, went into the ark because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth, 9 two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth

.

Originally posted by managerie
What I often find is that, among people who claim Christ as their Lord, the immediate criticism and denial comes from those who still seem self-focused. The desire or worse, need, to be right outweighs the humble desire to share and discover the truth of the Word.

Yes, I agree with your assessment. By necessity, we are all born self-focused (hence we are all born 'into sin'). But if that condition clings to us as we mature (physically) I think it is primarily insecurity that keeps it hanging on. And of course, God can cure insecurity. And love is our own way to help others overcome fear.

Personally, my own thoughts have always been that I can't be sure anyone else is right, and certainly can't know if I'm right--but if I think I'm 'right' but it's not in agreement with God--what good is it? And while I have been considered 'rebellious' to human religious authority by some, I have never been rebellious to God's authority. Not always understanding it, but always willing to submit to it. Like Einstein said: "I want to know God's thoughts--the rest are details.' And if I do not accept what men tell me as anything other than suggestion, God will let me know what's what. But if my ear is filled with human voices and my mind governed by human thoughts, how can I expect to hear God's still silent voice which comes from within?

I also have seen that much of churchdom no longer believes the following promises:

Yes! All those verses are dear to me--and they are so simply worded, straightforward and truly inarguable! The simple core truths of God are not hidden or coded! And available to anyone who ever rented a motel room (thanks to the Gideon's). The bible is used by many to provide support for their opinions--any opinion could probably be held up with the right twisting of scripture, it is so myriad and rich in its subject matter. Perhaps the majority of folks don't know these things are waiting inside--I have rarely heard a sermon about unconditional love, forgiveness, or our duties to one another as servants around the LORD's table. A deacon is not a church official! A 'deacon' (diakonos) is one who serves others at table! One who puts the needs of everyone else before their own--not someone who decides where church monies should be distributed or what the congregation's missionary policy is. I'm rambling...

Here are some other rarely-advertised gems:

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(~John 14:23)

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the age. Amen.
(~Matthew 28:20)

What words? What commandments? What's the requirement?

LOVE. Love God, Love others. Seek not for your own.

And wait patiently upon the LORD, for He has made good on His promises.

Jesus spoke at that moment and told me I was talking to a Pharisee. I know my eyes widened at the recognition of the revelation.

Crazy, huh? Yes, Pharisees have little use for God's laws--they much prefer their own self-righteousness. But our righteousness is indeed like filthly rags--better to just cast aside, IMO.

I found it a little shocking since it confirmed part of the state of the mainstream church as the coming of the man-child ministry approaches.

I know you are diligent in your education--so I think I can safely say that the shocking things have only just begun to arrive! God's plan for us reveals a genius of a sort that can only be Divine, completely wise, and He is a true living fountain of limitless love! I am ecstatic in my understanding of what lies ahead of you, my friend! And I can only guess at what lies ahead of me! I can't wait, that's all I know. So far it's been the best adventure anyone could ever have. And I know this is just the very start.

I appreciate in particular your understanding of the Greek.

I have found it to be quite clarifying in my studies--what the NT says, according to the Greek texts, is quite different, in many ways, from what the English translations say (even the KJV which is my preferred.) The more modern translations have begun to echo human doctrine and there are so many words that meant one thing, when written, that have been transformed to represent different ideas, all together.

I think it might help Managerie understand better if you would not use open terms.

Instead of using the term LORD, use the term Lord Jesus, or Lord Baal, or whoever your master is.

Instead of just saying Christ, try using Jesus the Christ, or the Cosmic Christ, the Son of Perdition.

This will give Managerie a much better understanding of what you are really talking about.

It is clear to me, however.

Some more points to consider:

The 7 years is a time of personal tribulation--God no longer deals with us grouped together, but because of Christ, we now receive 'individual attention.'

And actually, even in the OT, there are examples of individual trials lasting 7 years. Nebuchadnezzar is the main one--even though a Babylonian who preferred a myriad of idols, he did not understand or acknowledge the ultimate sovreignity of God. 7 years living as a 'beast' made him see differently.

'7 years living as a beast.'

External source: KJV, Public Domain
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(~2 Peter 3:8)

According to the biblical lesson, mankind is in it's seventh year. This is our last year of living as beasts. We are beasts:

External source: KJV, Public Domain
Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight?
(~Job 18:3)

But none saith, Where is God my maker, who giveth songs in the night; Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven? There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men.
(~Job 35:10-12)

'The pride of evil men' has taught us that we are not beasts. But yet this does not change the fact that we share beastly traits with all the other beasts of the earth--the defining one being mortality:

External source: KJV, Public Domain
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
(~Ecclesiastes 3:18-19)

Also read Psalms 49:11-13, 49:20.

Nebuchadnezzar is all of us--what he learned, we will each learn, in turn:

External source: KJV, Public Domain
And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
(~Daniel 4:34-37)

This a powerful speech!

An 'image' is a reflection, basically. We are made in God's image--we are a reflection of his likeness. And if we are 'beasts' and the dreaded antichrist power is manifested in the 'image of the beast,' then what in the world could it be?

That which the world worships (not will worship but does worship) is not some graven image or man-made temple. It is not something made with human hands but rather with human minds--thoughts. The image of the beast is the god that has evolved in man's mind--a direct reflection of our own imperfect thoughts and petty jealousies and rampant insecurities.

And just as God seals His own with His law on forehead or hand, following the laws of man is presented as 'the mark of the beast.' It is man's mark, not Satan's. Satan is not a beast, and he is far less evil than we, ourselves, are. Our selfish ways and unwillingness to let God lead us is evil. Because when we follow our own agendas (even when that agenda is beautifully packaged in religious piety and a show of christian doctrine) we are not serving one another--we are serving ourselves.

Who can 'buy or sell?' Those without the mark of the beast cannot buy or sell--but they have no need to! They have already been purchased with the blood of the lamb (we all have, but we don't all realize that the debt is already paid, not in escrow). Religion is an economic institution, and I don't men merely in a financial sense. It deals in social and personal approval, benchmarks one's idea of personal worthiness to God, and the idea of allegiance to a religion being the way to reap the 'reward' of salvation (which is not a reward but a gift--the holy spirit is the reward, when it is received in a mortal lifetime) and win favor in God's eyes--that is where the bartering of souls comes in....

When Cain killed Able, his blood spilled into the ground, and the earth received it. And in Genesis 4:15 we find the first mark on Cain's forehead--but it is not God's law, just protection. Cain chose to worship God the way he saw fit--but Able sought to please God, and God alone. And so Cain's jealousy ate at him until he killed his brother. Cain's decision is the root of modern religiosity.

The Hebrew word translated 'received' also means 'purchase' or 'buy.' And in Leviticus we read that the 'life of the soul is in the blood.'

From the day one brother killed the other, our souls were literally prisoners in the earth. Centuries later, we killed our brother--but He gave his mortal life up so that the blood which was spilled once more into the ground would pay the debt and set us all free from the earth's death sentence (otherwise known as the carbon-based life cycle).

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Instead of using the term LORD, use the term Lord Jesus, or Lord Baal, or whoever your master is.

Just for the benefit of your own so-called 'clarity,' Sun Matrix, I will explain just this once why I capitalize LORD and what I mean by it, every single time I use it.

In the KJV of the OT, most of the time when we read 'Lord' it represents the Hebrew word 'Adonai,' which basically means 'sovereign, lord, master, or owner.'

Abraham used this title when addressing God, and Sarah used a more simple form of the same word when addressing her husband, Abraham. There are a couple of other Hebrew words used here and there which basically mean the same thing and are translated in the same manner.

Everytime LORD is displayed using all capital letters, the Hebrew word it represents is


Which is only applicable to 'the Self-existent One,' He who is the creator and savior of this earth and all its inhabitants. The God of Israel. The Lord of the Universe. And I am using it in the exact same fashion, to indicate the very same God.

Although, it seems to me, that we've covered this already?

Originally posted by queenannie38
Either you have never read the New Testament or you are baiting me.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
No, neither. I have read the new testament and I am not baiting you. I am confused on who your master is?

I won't derail another thread by engaging in a snipe session with you, Sun Matrix. Please consider the issue resolved or else keep it to yourself.

[edit on 4/23/2006 by queenannie38]

In the KJV of the OT, most of the time when we read 'Lord' it represents the Hebrew word 'Adonai,' which basically means 'sovereign, lord, master, or owner.'

I am certainly aware of who your Master isn't. I just think you should come out from behind the smoke and mirrors of Lord and Christ and tell us who your Master is.

In the meantime, go back to your Master and tell him............

Have you perceived that your words have fallen far beyond the limits of your personal authority?

Whose authority I walk in. I would like him to get his cringe in for the day.

Please consider the issue resolved or else keep it to yourself.

Like it will be our little secret????

Hey Managerie,

What happened to you? Remember, you were taking on any and all challengers.

You shot the big guns off a few times, I guess. I pulled out the slingshot and laid one verse of truth on you and you disappeared.

All the symbolism and interpretation just doesn't hold up to just reading the straight facts of a verse.

There is no "Corporate Man-Child", ministry as you can see. The doors of the ark are shut.

God rescued Lot from Sodom and Noah from the flood, so an unchanging God will rescue those that have overcome from the day of testing.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Hey Managerie,

What happened to you? Remember, you were taking on any and all challengers.

You shot the big guns off a few times, I guess. I pulled out the slingshot and laid one verse of truth on you and you disappeared.

All the symbolism and interpretation just doesn\'t hold up to just reading the straight facts of a verse.

There is no \"Corporate Man-Child\", ministry as you can see. The doors of the ark are shut.

God rescued Lot from Sodom and Noah from the flood, so an unchanging God will rescue those that have overcome from the day of testing.

Hi Sun,

Work heated up a lot this week and I have had a lot less time for this than I wanted. I assume the one verse of truth to which you refer is the reference in Matthew 24 - the one taken, one left scenario?

There are several points to consider here:
1. The bible does not self-conflict. In proverbs, 2:21-22, it talks about the wicked being removed from the land, but the righteous being rooted in it.
So, while I think you mean that the matthew 24 verses refer to God taking the righteous and leaving the wicked in the land, proverbs says that the righteous in the land and the wicked are removed.

2. It does not say in "taken" that God took them, as with Enoch. It is much closer to the verses in Zech 14:1-2 when God judges the city that 1/2 will be taken into captivity in persecution.

3. The Bible theme is that every time that Israel went against God's ways, God raised up the Egpytians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Medes/Persians, and Romans to take them captive. Now, at the end, we are to now believe that God will do a "new" thing and take us out of the hands of the final beast kingdom.

4. The verse that talks about studying to find yourself approved to escape all these things. The greek word for escape there means "flee out of" (run), etc, not some rapture of being caught away. In Lot's case, it was definitely God's leading that caused Lot to flee out of (not raptured out of) Sodom and Gomorrah and so it shall be with those that overcome. In Noah's case, he was shut in the Ark on the earth for 7 days before the WRATH started (day of Lord - year after tribulation) and then 40 days (very close to the 1335-1290 = 45 days after the end of the tribulation) protected in the midst of the wrath before being raised up off the earth.

So, you think that you can quote the Matt 24 verses with only assumptions about :

1. what taken means

2. taken by who

3. who is taken and who is left

4. where are then taken

and your work is done in explaining this. There are so many assumptions that you have made that are invalid in this single quote alone. Did you really think your work in proving your case was done?

In the next year or so, you may start seeing people with an anointing of the Holy Spirit upon them that preach the Word of God and follow it with signs and wonders as never seen before in this world. Do not persecute them in any way. These people will be part of that corporate man-child and theywill be fought against by the mainstream church who will not understand that this is genuine and always intended. For your sake, bless them and do not fight them.

I will not be able to answer daily for a while as my work got really heavy.

[edit on 23-4-2006 by managerie]

Don't have time to respond, watching Basketball.

Glad to have you back.


Most cut and run never to be heard from again.

Managerie,

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

After reading your response and rereading the verse, I was ready to agree with you.

I based that on the fact that the ones taken were taken by the flood.

After rereading again, I note that "ALL" were taken by the flood, and none were left.

Therefore, I cannot draw a clear conclusion from this verse whether it supports a pre, mid or post tribulation rapture.

Need to do more digging.



[edit on 25-4-2006 by Sun Matrix]

[Therefore, I cannot draw a clear conclusion from this verse whether it supports a pre, mid or post tribulation rapture.

Need to do more digging.

Hi Sun,

I agree as well that this passage is not conclusive on pre, post, or mid-trib. I would really be interested in other passages that demonstrate to you the pre-tribulation rapture. I do see a rapture. It is after the tribulation and we are up
in heaven for close to a year before returning with Jesus to finish the last battle
in the war of the great day of God. Then we stay and reign with Christ for the Millenium. The rapture occurs 40-45 days after the beginning of the day of the Lord where were are protected supernaturally on earth as the wicked are judged (Psalm 91)

Again, that is what I have concluded. I would really like to hear your backing for the pre-trib view.

Pre trib scripture???????????

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.

Verse 7, only He who restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way,(The Holy Spirit is taken out of the way as those with their lamps full of oil, the Holy Spirit, are ready for the Bridegroom.

And then the lawless one will be revealed. (The first seal is broken and the White horse comes conquering and to conquer.)