The human herd...

Originally posted by NotClever
Think about this in the context of evolution. Our genetic lines are being weakened by the continued reproduction of less than hardy stock.

And the strength of the herd is diminished by inferior genetics. Stupid, weak, etc..

NC

But whos to say what are inferior genetics and which are superior ones.

Many might consider Stephen Hawkings poor genetic stock, physically hes a mess. Yet he turned out to be one of the greatest minds in history.

What about a Young Einstein he didnt talk until 3 years old and was not was not fluent until much later. Some of his teachers thought he was borderline retarded.

We cant even properly gauge important attributes like intelligence.

Have we, because of our technological advances made evolution redundant? Crocodiles have barely evolved for a million years, why, they dont need to.
Due to the size of our brains we have become the dominant species on earth, in our early begginings the old, infirm, crippled or just plain stupid didn't survive. Now, these same people are able to contribute in other ways to society. Senior citizens are still contributing until the day they die in a lot of cases. What chance would Steven Hawking have had in the middle ages, in our times he'll be remembered as a great person. George Bush is the leader of the most powerful nation on earth.(omg)

Perhaps we, as a species are at a stagnant stage in our evolution.

Now a catastrophic event or a potent threat may restart our survival of the fittest past. To say that we are above the baser instincts of animals is a crock. Just take a look around at some of the horrific things that we are still capable of doing to each other.
At least animals only kill for food or defense.

I also think that because of our huge population growth that our breeding is able to be so much more diverse. There are so many more inter racial partners now that i think that our gene pool will continue to grow and improve. We are still producing great thinkers. The so called "clueless" that were mentioned earlier can still be valuable participants.

denythestatusquoif I cross a lion with a leopard then what do I have?

A really really big tabby.

Originally posted by brEaDITOR

You should be very careful here. Someone was banned for comments like these made in another thread. I don't care because I'm pretty open-minded, but just be aware that not everyone who posts at ATS is.

I'm commenting about biology, nothing more. I completely trust the moderators of this forum to do what they think is appropriate. I want this discussion to remain in very general terms. I understand your concern, but I don't think the knee-jerk inference that this subject is somehow sinister is warranted.

Originally posted by seagull
...has enabled us to rise above simple "survival of the fittest" to become the dominant speicies on this world...

We are able to prevent the deaths of our young from disease, and misfortune by the use of medical tools and knowledge. Which in turn deepens the genepool, and strengthens, not weakens, us as a speicies. So I submit to you that your entire notion is mistaken.

Tired or not, I think you made your point just fine.

At what point does 'survival of the fittest' become 'survival of the not quite so fit'? I'm of the opinion that the constant introduction of manufactured antibodies and vaccines leaves us wildly vulnerable to mutated bacteria or viruses, organisms that are practicing 'survival of the fittest' far better than our technological culture.

I may be simply too cynical or curmudgeonly, but I look around at my community and I don't see much evolutionary improvement.

Parts of my notion may be mistaken, I'll concede that. But I can't escape the worry that some outside influence will force 'survival of the fittest' on us, and many will suffer simply because they are not equipped for the struggle.

NC

with all of the humans on earth no, matter how strong a bug is. there are bound to be some of us that will surive it. it may not be anyone with a pitcular extordanary ability. its just the fact that there are so many of us that the diversiny of our genes will ensure our survival.

Remember that we, the people living now are descendants of those stronger, intelligent, cautious prehistoric people.Evolution is indeed slowing because of medicine, laws,family etc. but you should see this as a step in our evolution and not as if we are going back.
Not only the human body and intelligence are the ones that evolve but also does our knowledge, in that way consider our knowledge in medicine is evolving (very fast) to the point we will perfect our breeding, speeding the evolution of our bodies and intelligence.

Just brain-storming or wool-gathering.

Sounds eerily similar to the same "brain- storming or wool-gathering" that took place by Josef Mengele and the Nazi party just before the systematic butchering of millions of European Jews, cripples and mentally inferior "Untermensch" in Germany back in the 1940's. Very dangerous train of thought IMO, but I am certain that you are aware of this. That aside, my question is - Who gets to decide who is inferior and who is superior? Do you base it off of mental superiority or physical superiority? Who gets to stay and who has got to go?

Will it be based on physical or mental handicap?

Under this line of thinking Aristotle, Beethoven, Napolean, Sir Isaac Newton, Leonardo DaVinci, Nicola Tesla, Ernest Hemingway, Abraham Lincoln, Stephen Hawking, Hellen Keller, Ray Charles, Alexander the Great, FDR (and countless others) all would have been classified as undesirable and disposed of.

Should it be based on religion, as so many would like for us to believe? My God is better than your God, so it's time for you to go. I know many people who are superior physically and have very high IQ's, seemingly the "perfect" human specimen, and they are rotten, miserable people. On the same hand I have a cousin who has downs syndrome and, true he can't write a great novel or win the 200 meter hurdles at the summer olympics, but he is so full of love and pure joy at being alive that there could never be any doubt that his life is worthwhile. Which is more than I can say for a lot of these "superior" folk walking around out there.

My point is this - I don't care who you are, dumb or smart, short or tall, rich or poor, strong or weak, you deserve a chance at living a good life and at least a chance at creating some sort of peaceful existence for yourself. This is what a free society is founded on. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Everyone can contribute to the human cause in their own unique way, on some level, and no one persons existence is more worthwhile or more important than anyone elses.

Nobody has the authority to say who's life is more valuable than anothers. When you get right down to it, people are people whoever or wherever you are and science, with all of it's many wonders and advances, still cannot understand, capture, reproduce or raplace the human spirit. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

For sure, if there were some cataclysmic event some of us would survive and some of us would perish. Those of us with the spirit to survive will have more of a chance than someone who doesn't have a strong will to survive.

Funny thing is, some folks with "handicaps" have been known to live fuller lives than those with no physical handicaps. Will and spirit to survive that factors in heavily.

While I believe mankind is different than animals, there still is that "spark" in everything that lives. I guess I'm a bit of a tree-hugger too. I recycle, but still I know I need to do more....

Troy

O.K., I admit I'm bumping this because the topic is somewhat related to a thread at the top of the list.

Its completely selfish but I think its an interesting theoretical discussion.

I am in no way advocating genocide

NC

What I may add may be seen as slightly contraversial and i apologise for any offence I may cause in advance. I do not intend to insult other users with the content of my post and if needs be I will remove it immediately.

I would like to say I whole heartidly agree with the 'Survival of the fittest' theory. I do not see humans as being higher than animals.. we may be physically and mentally but on the whole we are the same. Birth defects, disease, old age, mental illnesses, disabilities, many would result in an early death creating a stronger gene pool for the human race.

What many do not realise is many Western countries are turning top heavy, due to this good health care people are generally living longer and using money from the Government to live. Handicapped people need specialist health care and carers.. draining more money from our Government. With each generation less children are born (mainly down to educating children on sexual issues from a young age), as these children grow the generation before and before will all be facing retirement and a Government pension and increased health care.. can we actually cope?? I don't think so.

Because my post may seem quite ignorant I am only trying to state what I feel. I realise that when im older or if I ever had and disabled children I will possibly have somewhat different views.. but I do feel this country's economy will collapse eventually.. too little money in and too much money out.

[edit on 3-4-2006 by Knights]

Natural selection?

Oh, it's still hard at work. Yeah, it's true that some, maybe more, "inferior" representatives of the species are being preserved because of better medicine. But gold 'ol Mother Nature still has a way of weeding out the unfit.

Something will happen. A virus only a few percent of us have an immunity to will bust us back down a notch. Solar flares could toast everyone in the Northern Hemisphere. Fluoride in the drinking water or Round-Up in the soybeans will make us all sterile. Something.

Then the only people left will be those with Sickle-Cell Anemia, or Down's Syndrome, or pedophiles, or blonds, or some other group of people born with the lucky survival mutation. There were quite a few Neanderthals around for quite a while. They were a good, solid adaptation and existed a lot longer than we have, so far. And now they're gone.

Patience. Patience.

Originally posted by NotClever
I am in no way advocating genocide!

You know, it's usually people who say this kind of thing who are the ones actually advocating genocide. Come on. Just admit it. You wouldn't mind seeing a big chunk of the Earth's population wiped out overnight. As long as it was THEM and not YOU. I think we'd all like a little more elbow room, a little less trash by the highways.

Admit it!

Originally posted by Enkidu
You know, it's usually people who say this kind of thing who are the ones actually advocating genocide.

I'll bet you wrote that without really reflecting on it. As the writer I can't actually prove the statement wrong, but I know, as sure as I'm typing this...the statement's wrong, at least in my case. The neighbors?...I don't know. (Does that make me a know-it-all, or firm in my convictions?)

You wouldn't mind seeing a big chunk of the Earth's population wiped out overnight. As long as it was THEM and not YOU. I think we'd all like a little more elbow room, a little less trash by the highways.

Zing! I don't think you could have written a more direct, true statement than this. You're right.

And I guarantee,...the groupthink here will force respondents to feverishly type "FASCIST","NAZI", "PSYCHO"....I know, I'm exaggerating about the verbiage, but go back and read the whole thread. Some posters have come close to the concept.

Do I want it to happen? No. If I woke up and found 3/4 of the Earth's population gone, would I wail and gnash my teeth. Paradoxically, No. Do I fervently pray or wish it would happen? Again, No.

No, I'll simply remain a grumpy curmudgeon; shaking my head and muttering about "goin' to hell in a hand basket". Poking along in the right lane at the speed limit, watching SUVs and 4x4s that never get off of concrete blowing fuel out the exhaust pipe at 80 mph. Harrumphing at the kids at the mall, with enough fabric hanging off 'em to clothe 3 or 4 children from developing countries......and not enough brains to know the bill of the cap goes in the front.

I'll stay convinced there is no solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Roll my eyes when Muslims rant about American hegemony while the Shiites and Sunnis lustily slaughter each other in Iraq. I'll pray that a miracle happens and Africa is saved from utter depravation and murder.

And I laugh in the face of deluded people who think we as humans are somehow 'higher' and more 'spiritual', when the fact of the matter is we are simply perverted predators, preying on our own kind, and getting stupider and stupider.

I'm done with this rant.

Read the whole thread.

NC

[edit on 3-4-2006 by NotClever]