Arab Palestinians; political pawns and human weapons

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Your average Lebanese or Jordanian likely sees Palestinians like Americans see illegal immigrants. "Well, we feel real bad that they come from a cesspit of a country with no freedoms whatsoever and just want a chance at making a life for themselves, but I still don't want them here"

Wasn't what we now call Jordan originally part of Palestine anyway? I'm sure it was part of the British Mandate and that's why the King accepts Palestinians as his own people. Surely Jordan should give up some of their land for a Palestinian state if that was the original intention?

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
That is not true. The Arabs only turned to Czechoslovakia for arms when they were defeated by the Israelis which were provided arms by the US. Israel was just established and it had no chance of winning against the outnumbered and better equipped Arab allied forces without any major foreign support.


[edit on 27-2-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

If you stop holding the book upside down, you might get the facts straight.

The U.S. didn't provide Israel with JACK! AS a matter of fact, it WAS the Russians and the Czechs who did.
How did you get the historical data upside down? on December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on the entire region!

Don't feel bad if you are using your memory, mine plays tricks on me from time to time, too.

[edit on 27-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

TC..

As much as the arabs did wrong AFTER Israel was slapped down in front of them. It was also extremely arogant and wrong for the UN which was ruled by non arab's to create Israel there.

I agree with the Iranian president on this matter.. WTF wasn't israel made in Europe?

If someone takes half of my country away and then say oh its ok just live with these new guys. They will only take what land they need. Sorry if its yours. I will fight them, i hope my neighbors fight them, and I hope all of my friends fight them. Until they are gone.


Creating Israel was wrong. The wars since have been wrong. The terrorism is wrong. The wholesale bombing of targets inside palestine is wrong.

EVERYONE in this situation is dead wrong.

Really? I have a question for you, then.

Why wasn't Jordan made in Europe? Why wasn't any of those states created in Europe? I don't see you complaining about those, huh?

What half of your country? You had no country then. There was no state from which this state was created. It was just as much Jewish as it was Arabic, you realize that, right?
Again, you seem to not mind that the other states were created, only Israel.
You seem to not understand that there was no "Palestine" as a states, and that Jes were Palestinian, too, and that the word was specifically targeted for the Jew. Back then, the Arab was slightly offended if he was referred to as a Palestinian.
The Arab was only referred to as a Palestinian when it suited their political needs, starting in the '60's, I believe.

Gotta go to work and make money for the cable access bill. Have a good day.

Xerrog,

Why should a Jewish state be created in Europe? Because there were Jews there? There were Jews in the US, in Syria, in Iran, Iraq, Soviet Union, Morocco, Lybia, Tunisia, 'Palestine', south America, India, Yemen . . .( I think I made my point). So why in Europe. Moreover who is the PM of Iran to suggest such a thing?
And finally, what land did the Jews take from Iran to even incorporate Iran into the conflict?


[edit on 28/2/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Originally posted by Xerrog
I agree with the Iranian president on this matter.. WTF wasn't israel made in Europe?

Nations “slapped down” after the Ottoman dissolution:

The British held control of the areas of the middle east that are now known as Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordon and Palestine; France held the territories of Syria and Lebanon(just in the middle east).
European & Ottoman Empire Map 1900

In total:

The director general of Turkey's state archives, Yusuf Sarinay, said that 30 countries were once incorporated into the Ottoman Empire scattered across Asia, Africa and the Balkans.

(Link to

Asian and African nations formerly part of the Ottoman Empire are using Ottoman archival resources to resolve territorial disputes.

What happened to the Kurds…received no ‘state’; robbed and continued persecution and the 125,000 Jews thrown-out Iraq…robbed; certainly no ‘right to return’ Where is all the disgust?


mg

Originally posted by Chris McGee

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Your average Lebanese or Jordanian likely sees Palestinians like Americans see illegal immigrants. "Well, we feel real bad that they come from a cesspit of a country with no freedoms whatsoever and just want a chance at making a life for themselves, but I still don't want them here"

Wasn't what we now call Jordan originally part of Palestine anyway? I'm sure it was part of the British Mandate and that's why the King accepts Palestinians as his own people. Surely Jordan should give up some of their land for a Palestinian state if that was the original intention?

No, there was Palestine (modern Israel/Palestine) and there was Transjordan - Modern Jordan.

Originally posted by Chris McGee

Wasn't what we now call Jordan originally part of ... the British Mandate

Yes, it was.

here are some maps - to show how that area in the Middle East changed during the centuries

(click on image to enlarge and read about that area)

external imageThe Kingdoms of David and Solomon: 1077 - 997 BCE

external image The Kingdom of Herod: 30 BCE to 70 CE

external imageJewish Communities in the Land of Israel (7th - 11th Centuries)

external image British Mandate

external image Separation of Transjordan (1922)

external image 1947 UN Partition Plan

external image 1949-1967 Armistice Lines

external image 1949 Armistice Agreement with Jordan


[edit on 1-3-2006 by Riwka]

Actually, everyone seems to have over-looked one crucial piece of information – the petition of Land, that was given to the Jewish State [Israel] did not include Jerusalem – that piece of land was meant to be shared by both groups. It was Irgun/Levi, who broke the initial treaty by refusing to disarm and this in turn lead to the Arab Invasion days later.

People also forget to mention or just over-look to justify their own point the Jewish extremists who launched attacks to gain this piece of land – killing many Arabs. It seems though people are fine when it is Jewish groups killing Arabs, but when Arabs decide to kill a Jewish person that is not expectable?

The problem with the whole region is the blatant hypocrisy and the fact one side are called terrorists, when in fact both are. Like it or not collateral damage – the murder of innocent people- is still terrorism. Killing Civilians by Israeli’s and by Arab’s, is terrorism to one side and until we begin to evaluate these things rationally and logically and begin to open up a dialogue the whole process will time and time be ground to a halt. Both sides broke parts of the agreement, there is point before point we can use to justify the attacks of one after the other but does that really matter? Many people in Palestine won’t forgive Israel for invading – as they see it and many people in Israel won’t give up the land or desire to as they see the conquest as justifiable. The problem will only be solved when areas such as Jerusalem are shared – controlled by a Non-Muslim and Non-Jewish Government and when we in the West begin to accept Israel is a much a terrorist organisation as Hamas are or as the I.R.A. are and stop differentiating between innocent people.

What part of the opening is confusing?
Someone is about to get permanently banned after refusing to stop hijacking threads (this particular thread was his last straw), and now it seems it is continuing.
Let us continue the thread discussion if we want to, but let us keep on track. This thread I started and I now know how it feels to have people try and steal your thread. I don't like it, and I know others don't, either.

Originally posted by Odium
Actually, everyone seems to have over-looked one crucial piece of information – the petition of Land, that was given to the Jewish State [Israel] did not include Jerusalem – that piece of land was meant to be shared by both groups. It was Irgun/Levi, who broke the initial treaty by refusing to disarm and this in turn lead to the Arab Invasion days later.

People also forget to mention or just over-look to justify their own point the Jewish extremists who launched attacks to gain this piece of land – killing many Arabs. It seems though people are fine when it is Jewish groups killing Arabs, but when Arabs decide to kill a Jewish person that is not expectable?

The problem with the whole region is the blatant hypocrisy and the fact one side are called terrorists, when in fact both are. Like it or not collateral damage – the murder of innocent people- is still terrorism. Killing Civilians by Israeli’s and by Arab’s, is terrorism to one side and until we begin to evaluate these things rationally and logically and begin to open up a dialogue the whole process will time and time be ground to a halt. Both sides broke parts of the agreement, there is point before point we can use to justify the attacks of one after the other but does that really matter? Many people in Palestine won’t forgive Israel for invading – as they see it and many people in Israel won’t give up the land or desire to as they see the conquest as justifiable. The problem will only be solved when areas such as Jerusalem are shared – controlled by a Non-Muslim and Non-Jewish Government and when we in the West begin to accept Israel is a much a terrorist organisation as Hamas are or as the I.R.A. are and stop differentiating between innocent people.

Odium,
Everyone is well aware that Jerusalem (although mostly Jewish for hundreds of years) was supposed to be under international jurisdiction as part of the Partition Plan.
The war did not start because of Jewish 'extremist' groups. That is a lie!
The Arabs attacked Israel, straight out, as soon as Israel declared independance. Irgun and Lehi were soon after merged into the IDF.
Do not even try to justify Arab agression by laying the blame on Irgun or Lehi. The attack to liberate Jerusalem was only necessary since it was obvious that the Arab armies had no intention to accept the partition plan and because they held Jerusalem under seige with its Jewish majority.

Comparing collateral damage to Palestinian terrorism is also a sorry comparison for the reason that, NO MATTER anyone says, targetting civilians is different ethical level than targeting militant who hide out among civilians. It is an insult to anyones intelligence who makes such a comparison.

My mistake, I assumed the history of the region and the history of them being pawns was fine.

Removed my posts,Drama attempt removed. Feel free to delete the one above.

[edit on 1/3/2006 by Odium]



[edit on 2-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Palestinian Refugees

Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict [...]UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948“

external image
(click to enlarge)




Palestine Refugees registered with UNWRA
(sources: UNWRA1 & UNWRA 2)

Field.....................................June 1950.......June 1970.......March 2005
Jordan........................................506,200...........506,038...........1,780,701
Lebanon.....................................127,600...........175,958..............400,582
Syrian Arab Republic.....................82,194...........158,717..............424,650
Westbank......................................(1).................272,692..............687,542
Gaza............................................198,277..........311,814...............961,645
Total all Fields............................914,221........1,425,219...........4.225,120

(1) Until 1967, the West Bank was administered as an integral part of the Jordan and UNWRA had no numbers



Jordan

www.dpa.gov.jo..." target='_new' class='postlink' style='color: #ff0000; font-size: 14px;'>external image
(Photo: El Hussein Camp)

Jordan has received the largest number of Palestinian refugees (05/2005: 1,780,701 = 42%) and has granted

full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendents.

 

Lebanon

~10% (= 400,582 in March 2005)
of the total number of Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon the majority of them are

• stateless. Lebanon has repeatedly stated that it will not accept the permanent settlement of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon;
  
  
• Some of the Palestinian refugee camps in the south of Lebanon might easily be mistaken for military zones. The camps are isolated from the outside word by fences and are guarded by Lebanese soldiers that control and vet access to and exit from the camps.
  
  
• they do not have social and civil rights,
  
  
• no right to own or inherit property,
  
  
• even construction and redevelopment inside the existing camps in the south of Lebanon, where the largest camps are situated, is prohibited.
  
  
• Palestinian refugees have only a very limited access to the government's public health and educational facilities.
  
  
• Palestinian refugees are prohibited by law from working in more than 70 trades and professions.

(source:www.amnesty.org..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>).............................................................................. ............(Photo: Nahr el Bared Camp)


Syria


(click on the map for a profile of each of the camps)

~ 10.5% (424,650 in March 2005) of the total refugees registered by UNRWA live in Syria;
They are

• not eligible for citizenship but they are
  
• well integrated into the country's economy, social, and political life.
• They have opened shops, established business, and formed companies on their own.
  
• The unemployment rate among Palestinian refugees in Syria is very low.

Westbank & Jerusalem


~16.5% (= 687,542 in March 2005) of all Palestinian refugees live in the WestBank territories.

After Oslo Agreements, Wye River Memorandum and other agreements, the camps came under different zones:

• Zone A – full Israeli control: Jerusalem & Shufat camp
  
  
• Zone B – joint Palestinian /Israeli control: 6 camps
  
  
• Zone C: full Palestinian control: the remaining 13 camps

The West Bank camps are active social units and run their own activities and camp committees in each camp are regarded as an official body representing the camp population.
Several Palestinian NGOs as well as Palestinian Authority ministries are active in the West Bank camps
................................................................................ (click on the map for a profile of each of the camps)



GazaStrip













~22.5% (= 961,645 in March 2005) of all Palestinian refugees live in the GazaStrip.


Israel left the GazaStrip in August 2005


The Palestinian refugees are under Palestinian control.







.



[edit on 1-3-2006 by Riwka]

To insure that it is clear what the thread is about;

The Arabic leaders urged the Arabs to leave the A-O so that they could destroy Israel.
The Arabs did, but the Arab armies lost.
The Arab Palestinians lost the gamble.
Rather than own up to their screw up, much of the Arab world prefers to use the people as pawns after SO many years. A poinmt is more important than a life.
Nowhere is a rehash of Palestinian Arab origins necessary or asked for. This thread is not yours for the hijacking.

Try it again, councillor. As I said, I am the creator of this thread, I should know its intent. The intent is clear.

As I said, it is easy to hijack; we have all done it on accident.

[edit on 2-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Rather than own up to their screw up, much of the Arab world prefers to use the people as pawns after SO many years. A poinmt is more important than a life.

The Arab oligarchies, monarchies and military dictators have used the ‘issue of Palestine’ time and time again as a matter of convenience in advancing their own respective agenda’s with very little consideration of the Arab Palestinians.

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, They abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones.

The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

- by Abu Mazen (Abbas), from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976

mg

Violence met with violence won't end until we have a winner.

Hamas turing to Iran for aid was met with the response "only if you continue attacks on Isreal"... this is not the first time this has happened.

I saw a programme about the Visisgoths, supposedly the only group of people to defeat the Romans at Rome. These people were used as pawns by the then emporer, but with nothing to lose they fought back and defeated the Romans.

The Arab-Isreal war needs to end. Forgiveness is the only path.