A question for Catholics...

Say that the Catholic Church urged you to overthrow your respective governments, would you do it?

Ever heard of separation between church and state? That's a pretty good philosophy....keeps the bs of religion out of the reality of life.

Does the Catholic Church have an army? Is that the Salvation Army? I'm scared of that bunch. Those tacky uniforms and bells don't fool me.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Say that the Catholic Church urged you to overthrow your respective governments, would you do it?

What if jesus told you to do it? Hmm, many christians would. Best to arrest them all and get ride of these potential traitor-christians.

I think the RCC in the modern age is cognizant and concerned about potentially violent backlash to members of the church living within and/or with citizenship in the nation in question, whichever nation that would turn out to be.

These days, the church appears to try to work within established political systems, and bring pressure to bear on politicians and political systems directly from the Vatican. Remember the controversy in 2004, when the Pope recommended denying John Kerry communion because he was Pro-Choice? There was quite an op/ed piece here on ATS about it.

All Hail the Power of the Cracker!

The Vatican holds a unique position in world politics as a city/state/nation. Yes, they even have their own army, though they rent it from the Swiss.

The Swiss Guard

How a Swiss unit came to be guarding the Pope is a story in itself. Talk about separation of church and state, how about separation of church and banking! I know, let's guard the Pope with the guys who control the money! What a deal.

The split between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches traces back to 1054 CE, even before, when clashes over the display and veneration of icons and calender disputes over when to hold holy days, as well as the political realities of keeping a large feudal empire functioning, began to take its toll on the unity of the Church and the Holy Roman Empire.

The Great Schism

[edit on 27-2-2006 by Icarus Rising]

Christ says in MAtthew 22


15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words.

16They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are.

17Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

This applies not solely to paying taxes, but to render the loyalty that is due to one's nation. If the Vatican called for a massive coup in this or any other country - which is unlikely to say the least - a contentious and educated Catholic would have solid theological and doctrinal cause to ignore this call. Anyone who is Pope surely would have the requisite knowledge of the New Testement.

Calling for Catholics to speak out against policy is another issue. Many Catholics and other Christians are ardent oppenents to abortion, for example. Speaking out, demonstrating, working to push legislation ... all of these are acceptable in the United States. Sniper attacks on abortion clinics are not. Many Catholics participated in the Civil Rights movement - including engaging in acts of civil disobedience. Once again, working within the letters of the law and the protections of our Constitutional rights. Poles who secretly worshipped during Communist dominion certainly broke the laws, and were prepared to pay the price if found out. Early Christians continued to worship despite periods of violent oppression. Despite what Nero claimed, Christians had nothing to do with Rome burning....

Man possesses Free Will. Certainly, a Pope or other religious figure could call upon the Faithful to rise up. Some would likely choose to follow this call. This is an instance of people failing to recognize this gift of choice and the expectation that we will choose wisely. It is the responsibility of us all to learn to listen to the Voice of God within us all, to discern the correct path.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Say that the Catholic Church urged you to overthrow your respective governments, would you do it?
I'm unsure if I would.

Consider this - in Ecclesiastes - Chapter 10:4 it clearly says -

If the spirit of the ruler rise up against thee, leave not thy place; for yielding pacifieth great offenses.

It represents an idea I agree with.

A person MUST stand up for what is proper.

If any political movement goes against it - they need to be challenged.

I am not saying that I would blindly follow a Church directive - but if it was presented I would have to evaluate the situation and pray for the wisdom to understand the way to handle it!

As far as I am concerned - even if ANY church failed to call for such an action - I think it is important to know that even though we were taught to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's does NOT mean it is acceptable to live against the values God has taught us to accept.

In my humble opinion - ALL religious organizations have sold their souls to the almighty cash flow that business offers.


FYI: My First Communion was the last one our parish did in Latin!

Give to god what is god’s , give to Cesar what is Cesar’s

I am a not a catholic but my husband is and our four children are.They all go to a catholic school. We love it. I was married in a catholic church. I chose not to become 1.

As for following what you asked. Nope we wouldn't. The church is not like to say that.
I am not sure if I like the new Pope yet?
Our kids have minds of their own but love being catholic.

I completely agree with benevolent. The country would have to have gotten to the point of oppression of Nazi Germany or the USSR before I'd rise up. But the Church doesn't just randomly tell people to rise up, there better a pretty damn good reason for recommending revolution.

BTW. I think denying Kerry, or any Catholic who supports birth control or abortion, Holy Communion is appropriate because it goes against church teachings.



Edited For Spelling

[edit on 3/26/2006 by replicators]

And what about denying communion from anyone that votes for Kerry, or any other politician that isn't in the favour of the church?

Capital punishment is against church teachings, are catholic candidates that support capital punishment denied communion?

Hell, since when is going against church teachings grounds for not getting communion anyway? No one is perfect, no? Likesay, those preists who molest kids, the church says 'they're sinners, but we forgive them and are willing to work with them'.

The requirement to receive communion for a Catholic is confession. If you haven't been to confession recently and confessed your sins and done your penance, you aren't supposed to receive Holy Communion.

A few items....

The "All Hail the Power of the Cracker" op-ed and many of the comments that followed is one of the more offensive things I've read in a while. Why is that people can't argue against something without being offensive and insensitive to other people's beliefs? I have little respect for most secular humanists because of this very reason. If I don't respect your perspective, I am a narrow-minded, inquisitorial fundamentalist. If you don't respect mine, you're hip.

I am not going to discuss the mystery of transubstantiation and the doctrine of the Eucharist here - if anyone is interest, U2 me. Suffice it to say that we take it seriously and that we celebrate in the Eucharist the mystery of Christ's sacrifice for all humanity. Because we believe that partaking in the Eucharist is partaking of a facet of the Divine, the church is justified in ensuring the bestowal of this grace. To be Catholic is to accept doctrine. To refuse to accept doctrine is to put oneself out of the tenets of the faith. Period. If you don't like that, become a Unitarian. Some of this doctrine has proven difficult for me, but the reflection, study, prayer, and consideration involved in resolving my conflict has always proven to be worth the trial.

SlantedFacts, I am not sure to be offended or to extend my pity for your perspective on all religions having sold their souls for money. I think you need to look around - there are good priests and good parishes out there. And I have seen a lot of good things done with the money I've given my parish. We feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, help the sick of body, mind, and spirit. Our money has gone to advocate for social justice, defend the downtrodden, and aid the strangers among us... and we never ask if you are Catholic when you come to us for help. How many other groups do that???

I stand by the Render onto Ceaser comments I made in an earlier epistle. Ecclesiastes doesn't apply to Catholics - Christ said that only He is the Way and the Truth and the Light. The Old Testament serves to give us wisdom, but your quote from 10:4 isn't a mandate. Catholics have employed a number of tactics to express their opposition to government policies. Boycotts, demonstrations, protests, grassroots organizing, and civil disobedience are all tools Catholics have used in the past and are using now. I don't see a time when I would have to choose between God and Country. I am politically involved to ensure that I won't!

Exitable Boy - the Salvation Army is not affiliated with the Catholic Church. Be worried about the Knights of Columbus - we are almost two million strong and devoted to the Holy See. We swear terrible oaths of loyalty to our Church, our parishes, our families, our communities....and our Country!

As to the doctrine of seperation of church and state - that applies to the government as an entity, not to politicians or the public at large. The 'BS of religion'??? As I said before, if it wasn't for religious groups - and not just the Roman Catholic church, but many congregations and denominations - there would be a hell of a lot more hunger, disease, homelessness, poverty, and dispair in the world. If you take the religious people out of your 'reality of life'...well, hell on earth is pretty much what you would be left with. Most of the secular humanists I know are big on talk, but not so great with good works....

Separation of church and state? Certainly a concept forbidden (or at the very least, unfathomable) for those powers-that-be who rule over Vatican City!

And a good working example of 'why not' for the rest of us!....

Well, seperation of church and state is very much an American institution - and a recent one, actually. It wasn't until 1819 that the Constitution of Connecticut was amended to exclude the mandatory support of the Congregational church. Catholics were restricted from owning property until the 1820s or so here as well. There are a number of countries that have religions that are official or quasi-official. Many Islamic nations adhere to Sharia law, Israel has a state religion as well. The Queen is the head of the Church of England... the list is lengthy.

Benevolent tyrant, glad you brought up these examples. Outside of Rome, Bishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador spoke out against the country's rulers before he was assassinated. There have been clergy who embraced "liberation theology."

Originally posted by shantyman
The "All Hail the Power of the Cracker" op-ed and many of the comments that followed is one of the more offensive things I've read in a while.

Then you definitly won't like the Zombie-Jews!!!!

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why is that people can't argue against something without being offensive and insensitive to other people's beliefs?

Why should people have to respect other people's silly and irrational beleifs???


edit to add:
by 'respect' i mean literally 'respect', not 'permit'. Clearly, if people want to beleive in zombi-jews or sin cleaning cookies or that they should throw pebbles at some silly obelisk, by all means, it should be permited, but respect?


[edit on 15-5-2006 by Nygdan]

Why? If for no other reason, for preserving your own integrity. Obviously, you missed the 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit' comment. Personally, I love it when people who disagree with me throw out the invective. They are telling me that the offensive remarks card is the best thing they have in their hand. The early church fathers capitilized on this approach with the numerous Apologetics that now form the foundation of Catholicism - and many other Christian denominations. Instead of spewing invective, they argued their perspective with logic, compelling arguments, and through examples. Mud-flinging has become so acceptable in our culture, we have forgetten the difference between simple invective and a valid argument. You want a REAL conspiracy? How about the conspiracy of ignorance?

There is the maxim 'I don't have to like you, I do have to tolerate you.' I am a strong believer in this precept. Toleration should include a modicum of courtesy if not respect. Otherwise, you are really nothing more than an ignorant bully.

The Catholic Church is a 2000 year old human institution. It certainly has its dark periods, it certainly has been embroiled in scandal, and there have been a number of Popes who have been wicked men. Guess what? God is perfect. Man isn't.We do the best we can, repair the damage, and try to do better. For every 'dark age' of the Church, there has been a movement of reform that has had impact at least as powerful.

Now - as to the comments of Social Liberation. Priests have stood against political tyranny for a variety of reasons. There are several Mexican Priests - all Knights of Columbus - who are in the process of being recognized as Saints (and the Catholic definition of a Saint is simply a person who we know beyond a shadow of doubt are in Heaven - so great was their good works and piety). Their crime? They refused to submit to the will of the Mexican government. They were martyred. Would I do the same? I would like to think that I would. Would I go out and start shooting up abortion clinics or targeting politicians that have been identified as Anti-Catholic? Nope. Christ spoke more than once that this world was NOT his kingdom. His Kingdom is in Heaven. He said that if He were in His Kingdom, a host of Angels - arrayed for battle - would come to do His Will. Catholics are expected to support the Church. We are expected to advocate socially and politically to support Catholic values. If neccesary, civil disobedience is a valid path. Armed insurrection against a secular government merely to create a theocratic state? Unlikely.

While many people may consider this to be a frivolous thread, as a teacher I believe that all questions are valid. Those who have been considerate and presented arguments based on beliefs or reasons that have been elaborated - I thank you for your contributions. Those who have tossed disrepectful links, platitudes, and phrases around - go fetch your own bones, dogs.

I do hope that I see more considerate, thoughtful debate in this forum. Sometimes I enjoy reading perspectives that I don't share - when they are well-written. It's as unlikely that others will change my mind as it is that I will change the minds of some other participants. That's OK. At least knowing what others think gives me food for reflection.

As always, thank you for your kind attention....