NEWS: Cartoon protests turn deadly

Originally posted by sigung86

Originally posted by Regenmacher
No IQ or brain required. A game for all ages with no winners, solve nothing, the past in never learned from, remain irresponsible, generate more hate, and point a finger today.

I kind of wish I were a cartoonist. I think I would draw a cartoon with Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, and what the Hell... Throw in Zoroaster just to attempt a balance of some kind, all standing on a cloud with their arms around each other, looking down, sadly, on the planet, shaking their collective heads, and saying, each in his own language... "They just don't get it".

I'm passing along a Way Above for this one thread that really makes sense in a simple way.

That's a nice image to have, but the problem is, "they" will never get it until and unless they are all on the same plane of understanding. And the longer that people are allowed to escape responsibility for their misdeeds, the longer that day will be put off.

I also agree that it is pointless and a waste of time to bring history into this debate. It's time to drive a stake into the ground and move forward.

I'm with you on this one JS'! But, alas, it is a shame that such a simple concept eludes the vast majority of people.

What is the problem with the Danish just offering an apology? This is so stupid. Day after day comes and goes and there is more blood shed, why??? Because a couple of people are waaay too smug to just admit they should apologize and do so.Without hiding behind the flipping freedom of speech amendment. Think about it like this. On will and grace, britney spears was going to play a christian woman wth a cooking show called CRUCIFIXENS, I think that is funny as hell, would they dare air that episode?? No frigging way.
WHY???
Because it insults christians. WHy is it ok to poke fun of Mohammed? Everyone is crying because of the cartoon of Donald rumsfeld listing a double amputee's condition as Battle hardened, and there are protests over that, because we dont go after defense secretaries or double amputeed soldiers... I think people need to check themselves with this double standard BS, because thats all it is BS>

What An ATSer Says

Originally posted by jsobecky
The media doesn't skew the facts, either. The fact is, embassies are being burned, people have been killed because of these cartoons. Who did the burning? Muslims, that's who.

What is skewed is the notion that the use of the word “Muslims” to describe a fractional subset of Muslims who are part of an organized propaganda and disruption effort as “Muslims” accurately represents who they are.

That's analogous to describing U.S. troops in Iraq as “Californians” because some of the U.S. troops in Iraq are from California. Or putting out an all-points-bulletin for police to search for an “American” because an American committed a robbery in America.

It is less relevant that the “protesters” are Muslims (most of the people in that part of the world are, and most of them aren't protesting) than that they are working as part of an organized effort to polarize the world into “Muslims” and “infidels”.

Losing sight of this fact is, ironically enough, the point of the exercise.

Escher's Challenge

Originally posted by denial28
What is the problem with the Danish just offering an apology?

If you apologize for posting that, I'll tell you.

Originally posted by Majic
If you apologize for posting that, I'll tell you.

At least I'll apologize if I offended you
My mom always told me to, no matter how right you feel about doing something, if it causes panacea, apologize. I do however have to agree with you on the extremists who do things in the name of Allah. Unfortunately in every religion, there are extremists and cultists no matter what you are.

[edit on 2/9/2006 by denial28]

Originally posted by denial28
What is the problem with the Danish just offering an apology?

On will and grace, britney spears was going to play a christian woman wth a cooking show called CRUCIFIXENS, I think that is funny as hell, would they dare air that episode?? No frigging way.
WHY???

Anyone here voted to axe Britney? I doubt it, because TV is controlled by advertisers, so your playing right into the old circulate the blame and try stick it on someone else to rationalize immoral behavior in others.

They did apologize btw, did you see or are you blind from rage?
Cartoons: Danish Newspaper says sorry
Danish Ambassador apologises for 'disparaging' cartoons

So shall we ever see a time for the perpetrators to apologize for fabricating phony images and blaming the Danes? How about the criminals paying for the damage caused by arson, inciting riots and death.


[edit on 10-2-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Majic
That's analogous to describing U.S. troops in Iraq as “Californians” because some of the U.S. troops in Iraq are from California. Or putting out an all-points-bulletin for police to search for an “American” because an American committed a robbery in America.

It is less relevant that the “protesters” are Muslims (most of the people in that part of the world are, and most of them aren't protesting) than that they are working as part of an organized effort to polarize the world into “Muslims” and “infidels”.

Losing sight of this fact is, ironically enough, the point of the exercise.

According to that logic, it would be factually true to say that "some" of the protestors were Muslims. Well, 99.999% of the protestors could be Muslim and that would still be factually true. But it would be intellectually deceitful, because I'm not saying that most Muslims are protesting. I'm saying that most of the protestors are Muslim. Like about 99.99% of them, imo.

Why are people so afraid to assign responsibility to those responsible? Are they trying to be painfully PC at all cost?

I came across this on disinfo.com, it sheds quite a bit of light on this situition.

Muslim Cartoon Controversy: What the Media Isn't Telling You
by Soj
Sun Feb 05, 2006 at 11:01:49 AM PDT

I had a friend over today who lives out of town and we switched on the traditional news media television and saw what most of you have probably seen - angry rioters protesting, burning flags and attacking various Danish embassies around the world.

Despite the spectaculor footage and a bevy of experts "weighing in" on the issue, I did not one single mention of what's actually going on. And so therefore, by my duty as a citizen journalist, I will now share it with all of you.

The issue has been framed by the traditional media as "Free Expression/Speech" in contrast with "Sensitivity to Religion". Do newspapers in democratic societies have the right to publish offensive images? Well that's something definitely worth debating, but it's overlooking an important step.

12 cartoons were published in the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten, which you can see here. Some were very bland, others seem to be unquestionably offensive. Yet these cartons were published on September 30, 2005. What the traditional media has failed to explain is why the protests are occuring now.

* Soj's diary :: ::
*

But before we explain that, it's time to address a few other issues. The first issue is whether or not it is inflammatory or offensive to Islam to depict the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) at all. Traditionally, the answer is the Qur'an (the Muslim equivalent to the Christian Bible) does not forbid it, it only forbids "idolatry", which would imply worshipping a statue or other representation of Mohammed (PBUH). The Hadith, which has no equivalent in Christianity but is equivalent to Judaism's Talmud, and is somewhat of a secondary literary source of the Muslim faith, prohibits any pictures or drawings of sacred figures, including Mohammed (PBUH). That being said, in practical terms, it occurs quite regularly.

There are images similar to Orthodox Christian ikons that are commonplace in Shi'ite communities, especially in Iran. There are also Muslim works of art depicting Mohammed (PBUH) in Central Asia, and neither these nor those in Iran are considered inflammatory and neither are they censored.

There are a number of depictions of Mohammed (PBUH), some in very unflattering situations, in Christian churches in Europe, especially Italy. The famous book/poem "Inferno" by Dante makes a very unflattering reference to Mohammed (PBUH) and there are several pieces of artwork depicting Dante's descriptions.

There have been several derogatory or potentially inflammatory usages of Mohammed (PBUH) in American entertainment vehicles, perhaps the most famous being South Park. And last but not least, there is an actual sculpture of Mohammed (PBUH) on the Supreme Court building in Washington, DC.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Mohammed (PBUH) has been depicted, painted or made appearances in animated cartoons on many, many occasions and yet there's been no rioting, storming of embassies and CNN coverage. The question becomes, not why were the Danish cartoons offensive or inappropriate, but why is there such a strong reaction now?

Denmark has a long history of multi-cultural tolerance, including their famous solidarity stand with Jewish citizens during World War 2. The newspaper Jyllands-Posten itself was surprised by the strong reaction to their cartoons and even apologized publically for any offense they may have caused. And for 2 months, there was hardly a peep from any Muslim group outside a small protest in Denmark itself and somewhat larger protests in Pakistan.

So what triggered this? Well it takes a blog to explain it. What CNN and the other traditional media failed to tell you is that the thousand gallons of fuel added to the fire of outrage came from none other than our old pals Saudi Arabia.

While it was a minor side story in the western press, the most important of Muslim religious festivals recently took place in Saudi Arabia - called the Hajj. Every able-bodied Muslim is obligated to make a pilgrimage once in their lifetime to Mecca, which is in modern-day Saudi Arabia. This pilgrimage can be done at any time of the year but most pilgrims arrive during the Muslim month known as Dhu al-Hijjah, which follows a lunar calendar that does not exactly match the western Gregorian calendar.

The most recent Hajj occurred during the first half of January 2006, precisely when the "outrage" over the Danish cartoons began in earnest. There were a number of stampedes, called "tragedies" in the press, during the Hajj which killed several hundred pilgrims. I say "tragedies" in quotation marks because there have been similar "tragedies" during the Hajj and each time, the Saudi government promises to improve security and facilitation of movement to avoid these. Over 251 pilgrims were killed during the 2004 Hajj alone in the same area as the one that killed 350 pilgrims in 2006. These were not unavoidable accidents, they were the results of poor planning by the Saudi government.

And while the deaths of these pilgrims was a mere blip on the traditional western media's radar, it was a huge story in the Muslim world. Most of the pilgrims who were killed came from poorer countries such as Pakistan, where the Hajj is a very big story. Even the most objective news stories were suddenly casting Saudi Arabia in a very bad light and they decided to do something about it.

Their plan was to go on a major offensive against the Danish cartoons. The 350 pilgrims were killed on January 12 and soon after, Saudi newspapers (which are all controlled by the state) began running up to 4 articles per day condemning the Danish cartoons. The Saudi government asked for a formal apology from Denmark. When that was not forthcoming, they began calling for world-wide protests. After two weeks of this, the Libyans decided to close their embassy in Denmark. Then there was an attack on the Danish embassy in Indonesia. And that was followed by attacks on the embassies in Syria and then Lebanon.

Many European papers, including the right-wing German Springer media group, fanned the flames by reprinting the cartoons. And now you have the situation we are in today, with lots of video footage of angry crowds and the storming of embassies and calls for boycotts of Danish and European products.

Saudi Arabia's influence on the Sunni Muslim world is incalculable. The sermons from high-ranking Muslim clerics are read and studied by Muslims around the world, who in turn give sermons to their local congregations. While the Saudis do not have direct control of the world's Sunni flocks, their influence is similar somewhat to the Pope's pronouncements and the sermons that Catholic priests give to their flocks the following Sundays. Saudi Arabia also finances a number of Muslim "study centers", where all the literature and material is provided by the Saudi government, filled with hatred for Jews and other extremely racist material. For them to promote an idea based on religion, including "outrage" at some cartoons published months earlier, is standard operating procedure.

Of course there is more than Saudi Arabia's hand at play here. The issue has metamorphed from religious outrage at a dozen cartoons to a clash of those who feel they are oppressed and downtrodded by the Christian world and those they consider their oppressors. That's why there was anti-Christian rioting in Lebanon, where the two religious groups have a long and tumultous co-existance.

As I sat there watching CNN (International) with my friend today, I could not help but note the number of Saudi flags that the various rioters were waving in Lebanon and Syria. Coincidence? I think not. Look for yourself - they are green with a large expanse of Arabic writing in white above a sword.

A very interesting perspective that would certainly explain a lot about the extent of the uproar and its real motivations.

Certainly something to consider. Of course I don't know who "soj" is and what the entent of his knowledge into the situation and into Saudi government officials' ideas, but it's interesting food for thought.

Thank you for passing that along.

[edit on 2-10-2006 by Djarums]

Originally posted by Djarums

Of course I don't know who "soj" is and what the entent of his knowledge into the situation and into Saudi government officials' ideas, but it's interesting food for thought.

Soj is an American girl living in Romania.

www.weblog.ro...


edit to add:
She is very intelligent. I recommend reading her blog on a daily basis. Her PDB (President´s Daily Briefing) is excellent. She writes a PDB almost every day.

[edit on 2006/2/10 by Hellmutt]

This is the first I have heard of Soj. But, her posting is obviously veery intelligent and articulate and concise...rightly or wrongly it has far more analysis in it than 95% of American news media does which is why I rarely get my news from Faux or any other television outlet. I highly recommend www.watchingamerica.com, whether you agree with any of the editorial and news articles posted there is illrevelent, it is a window through which to see how the rest of the world views us. Disinfo is good too.

This will set things in motion towards the end


but comon ppl, its a cartoon FFS, GROW UP, idiots

Today in PAKISTAN

external image
[Size=-2](Photo: Reuters)

at least two people were killed and 11 injuried

a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant torched

KFR burned

external image
[Size=-2](Photo: Reuters)

a Pizza Hut was attacked

a McDonalds in flames

external image
(Photo: AP)

the office of a Norwegian cell phone company, Telenor burned down

one hotel burned

two banks burned

and protesters also hurled stones at a Holiday Inn hotel and Western-owned filling stations and a branch of British bank Standard Chartered

AP[/url ]

U.S. and British embassy staffers were confined to their compounds until police dispersed the protesters, some of whom chanted, "Death to America!"

and in IRAN the the British embassy was attacked with Molotov cocktails and Islamists also targeted the German embassy

[url=http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-14T144040Z_01_L14722866_RTRUKOC_0_UK-RELIGION-CARTOONS-IRAN.xml]R euters

The protesters, mostly religious seminary students, chanted "Death to Tony Blair", "Death to Britain" and Death to America" while throwing hundreds of stones at the embassy buildings, smashing many windows

Cheers erupted when a petrol bomb was thrown over the high wall surrounding the embassy compound in central Tehran. Several other petrol bombs struck the wall and the embassy's main gate. Scuffles broke out between the protesters and dozens of riot police trying to prevent the crowd from surging towards the embassy gates.

Stones and firecrackers were thrown at the nearby German embassy by a smaller crowd of protesters earlier on Tuesday. "Europe, Europe this is the last warning. Mohammad is the Prophet of compassion, America is the cause of all misery," the crowd of about 50 chanted outside the German embassy.

[edit on 14-2-2006 by Riwka]

www.foxnews.com...

Intelligence officials say members of outlawed Islamic militant groups have joined the protests, and may be inciting violence to undermine the pro-Western government of President Gen. Pervez Musharraf

Some very keen observations by Soj. It should be fairly obvious, to every one except our various administrations dating back to FDR, that the House of Saud is not our freind, they are at best, allies of the moment, nothing more. Oh and suppliers of alot of oil to the western economies, how silly of me to almost forget that little tidbit .

If they aren't a major player in facilitating the spread of islamo-terror by supporting the spread of ultraorthodox Wahabi-brand in Islamic schools worldwide, I'd be surprised. Along with outright support of terrorism by private citizens who are connected at the hip to the House of Saud.

Very interesting blogsite, I'm going to keep up on the site whenever I can.

Assuming of course, I can even find the ferschligginer site. Help.

[edit on 15-2-2006 by seagull]

Soj is right. I have Muslims that are connected to my family through marriage and I've asked questions about how the Saudi's promote religion as "outsiders" aren't allowed anywhere near the holy places in that country and the locals don't really feel like explaining it to "outsiders" or else I would've found out about this type of manipulation when I lived in that cursed country.

Soj's analysis is pretty much on par with what my Cousins Uncle told me as well as her Great Uncle. Both are great people and cannot stand what is going on in the Muslim world today. Wish I could say the same about the rest of that family though :sigh: I also wish the Women in that family would let them visit more then once a decade ..... (For those that do not know in an Islamic Family the Women RULE the household as they don't have any other rights OUTSIDE of it)

[edit on 15-2-2006 by sardion2000]

Considering mere cartoons propagated all this to tip into voilence. What happens when fed up groups start burning the Quran and Muhammed effigies on TV?


Three die in Pakistan cartoon riots -worst yet



Days get more ridiculous by each passing....

Defining Caricaturistics

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Days get more ridiculous by each passing....

Indeed, the fact that we can now refer to the "Cartoon Riots" as a factual historical event of worldwide significance speaks for itself.

The death toll as far as I have noticed:

• Nigeria: At least 16 dead (Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters - three children and a priest were among those killed - eleven churches were also torched.)
  
• Libya: 11 dead
  
• Pakistan: 5 dead
  
• and 1 Indian sailor beaten to death

- and an unknown number injured

- and at least 125 protesters and an editor in Russia and a Yemini editor jailed so far...

Islamic truths

ANOTHER WEEK, another Muslim country burns in rage over months-old Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in an unflattering light. On Friday it was Libya, and earlier in the week it was my father's homeland, Pakistan, where violent protests were scattered across the nation.

Some Muslims have decided that burning cities in defense of a prophet's teachings, which none of them seem willing to practice, is preferable to participating in rational debate about the myths and realities of a religion whose worst enemies are increasingly its own adherents.

This week's events should compel those of us who claim Islam as our system of philosophical guidance to ask hard questions of ourselves in order to revive the religion's essential foundation: justice, peaceful and tolerant coexistence, compassion, the search for knowledge and unwavering faith in the unity of God...

By Mansoor Ijaz - an American Muslim of Pakistani ancestry.

[edit on 18-2-2006 by Riwka]

Trouble In Toon Town

Certain ideologues rhetorically ask "Where's the Muslim outrage against these violent protests?" while deliberately ignoring it, and choosing instead to feed the stated Al Qaeda goal of polarizing Muslims and non-Muslims against each other worldwide.

For me, what really drove home the tragic absurdity of these riots was the dark, double meaning of a search term I used on Google to find more information regarding the mainstream Muslim response to them:

Google search: Muslims denounce cartoon violence

The bitter irony of all this continues to amaze me.