Noah's Flood???

the reason i am posting is i heard a really interesting theory from a creationist the other day. here goes my best attempt at summing up what he said.

the theory:
when the earth began, where is now the ozone layer there was a shell of ice encompasing the whole earth. why is this important you might ask? because this explains the reason the dinosaurs died. one observation of dinosaurs has been that in proportion to their size they have extremely small nostrals. example the t-rex is supposed to have nostrals comparative in size to a quarter horse. in todays environment it is hard to understand how such low volumes of air could support such a large body mass. ~~~ this ice shell that surrounded the earth allowed the earth to be under pressure. similar to pumping pressurized air into the cabin of airliners. when air is under higher pressure there is more oxygen available per unit of volume. hense, this explains why dinosaurs were able to survive with such small nostrals before the flood!! just like it is easier to breath at lower elevations than up high, there is higher concentration of oxygen. ~~~another cool point:
ice acts as a UV filter. why is this important? because how was there enough food for these huge dinosaurs to survive? because when UV rays have been filtered out plants grow exponentially faster! and when plants are in higher airpressure they also grow much faster! there have been scientists prove both.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
now when the iceshell melted the earth was no longer in a pressure chamber, it was now only under atmospheric pressure. less oxygen available for the dinosaurs to breath. also the UV rays no longer were filtered out by the ice layer!! so the plants grew much much slower and the lower air pressure also slowed their growth. less food helped starve off those dinosaurs that didn't die from lack of oxygen.

this really made logical sense, atleast as much as any other theory i have heard.

also i believe in the Bible it says after the rain stopped the earth opened up and swallowed the water!!!!...hmm think, when the pressure the earth was once under escaped, the internal pressure of the earth caused it to push out from the inside. EXPAND.

ever noticed how the map just looks like all the continents just expanded from one land mass!!! well it did, and it expanded at the flood. the waters ran into the voids between the expanded land masses lowering the water level.



anyways if nothing else i hope this bring a new piece to the puzzle.... enjoy the read fellow ATS members and please don't be too harse on my first topic

Originally posted by confused
also i believe in the Bible it says after the rain stopped the earth opened up and swallowed the water!!!!...hmm think, when the pressure the earth was once under escaped, the internal pressure of the earth caused it to push out from the inside. EXPAND.

ever noticed how the map just looks like all the continents just expanded from one land mass!!! well it did, and it expanded at the flood. the waters ran into the voids between the expanded land masses lowering the water level.

Nahhh the continents expanding has nothing to do with landmass. The surface of the Earth is made out of tectonic plates which move around all the time. This causes earthquakes, volcanoes and mountains.

Interesting, but I am going to go with TheBandit on the continents. Especially when many things point to different regions being different climates in the past, deserts were forests, London was like Hawaii, etc...

If there were an ice shield, how did enough light get to the surface for the plants? The ice would have to be as clear as glass. Are there any ideas on how a shell of ice could be formed around the earth? Saw a show on TV about 2 planets colliding as one theory on the formation of the earth and the moon. Quite interesting, specially the part where the scientist wasn't allowed to touch the keyboard (dang government labs)

it's interesting to note that most religions, including the pagan ones , have flood myths

Originally posted by confused
when the earth began, where is now the ozone layer there was a shell of ice encompasing the whole earth.

How did sunlight get through to feed to plants and warm the environment?
What kept this massively heavy shell of ice in-place?

how or why it happened is still debatable.

there is insurmountable evidence towards a cataclysm that had the earth awash in its own water.

the ice shield is a relatively interesting theory as it has many correlations in ancient myths about the sky falling and it would be the most logical source of all that extral water. but its survival would have to be artificially induced and aided because the heat from the sun would melt an unenhanced natural ice shield within moments of its deployment. one or two solar flares would do the trick.

lots of theories have been invented to explain the floods. one of the more interesting scientifically accepted ones is the mutation of the Earth's oceanic belt, which is responsible for regulating the flow of the oceans. it is a complete cycle that cannot be disrupted without causing ecological changes.

It is interesting how many flood myths there are - each country seems to have a few versions. The oldest i know of is the Sumerian account - it is similar to the biblical tale apart from it is longer and makes a litte more sense.

Welcome to the board, Confused!

Interresting theory indeed which makes much sense to me, allthough I don't know the physics or the probabilities. But it could indeed explain how there was first light but no Sun and how the Heavens were "shaken" and so on, and not to mention the flood.

Crayon: Ice wouldn't need to be crystal clear for the earth to receive more than enough light for plants etc. to grow. If there was a white plexi cover around the Earth there would probably still be enough light here for both you an me to see eachother as well as to aid plant processes like producing oxygen etc. Don't there live highly specialised plants thousands of feet below ocean level and deep inside caves? Besides, fossil proofs say that plants then and plants now aren't the same breed. Few of the plant species that are around today lived back then, just like it is with the rest of the species. I live in Norway and part of the country is North of the polar circle meaning that for parts of the year there is close to no light, but still the pine trees or whatever they're called are still green and living when the Sun comes back a month later. Perhaps it was the Sun that killed all the ur-plants back then and paved the way for all the new plant species God had made for the new world.....

AlnilamOmega: The ice melt you say? Why do we have snow and hail? And why don't all water evaporate further into space like it seems to have done on Mars? I don't know if you have ever stuck your head out of a plane at high altitude, but I guess all those dead immigrants frozen to death inside weel chambers of airliners disproves your assertion beyond doubt.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

The entire surface of the earth has not been flooded for billions of years.

The flood myth of the bible seems to have been taken from the Flood myth of the babylonians, who inherited thiers from the Sumerians. The Sumerian flood myth was based upon an actual flooding around 6000-4000 BC, somehwere between those years, of the Danubian Basin north of the black sea. This flooding was so massive it drove the Indo Europeans out of the area, which was thier home at the time, and forced them to go elsewhere. One of many places they went was Sumeria, the first known civilization, where they picked up the arts of bronze working, civilization, and writing.

This flooding was pretty massive. But it did not cover the whole earth. there is no evidence anywhere showing that the whole surface of the earth was covered in water at one time other than before even animals existed.

The flood myths happen in many cultures, because, when you look at where civilizations sprung, the sprung from river deltas and valleys, which are prone to massive and catastrophic flooding. people back then, had no real concept of the actual world, thier small tiny corner of earth was, in thier minds, THE ENTIRE world, and thus, in thier myths, they talk about great floods.

China, egypt, Sumeria, all these places were build on floodplains and deltas which flood as a natural course of thier natures, thier flood waters making the soil fertile for agriculture, the very backbone of civilization.

Thus, in ancient times, when the rivers did flood and sweep whole cities away, in the minds of those isolated people, the world really did flood.

interisting theory

but they "geoligist/scientest"

that there were diffremt climets like the other people abuve siad

It was on an episode of "Ancient Mysteries" on the History Channel... it pertained to the flood.

Although my reply has nothing to do with an ice layer, it does help explain the flood waters.

There is a geologist theory that the earth's crust is much too thin for a planet of this age (how they came up with that idea puzzles me)... anyway, because of the fluidy of the surface, the great tetonic plate action (as opposed to other planets), they believe that the whole of the world is resting/ floating atop a massive subsurface ocean.

When, say, a massive asteriod or other celestrial object drew too close to the earth, a mighty fissure was created, releasing this pent up liquid (they believe the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is a remenant... also explains sinking of Atlantis).

At first, the fissure drew in the water, as a vaccuum (explaining the N. American Indian tales of how the water ran away)... then, in a giant uproar, shot forth a wall of water miles into the air.

As the tidal wave swept by, the sonic barrier being pushed before it alarmed and notified the world's inhabitants (and the force of God sprang forth, telling Noah... the hand of God slammed shut the Ark's door).

This tidal wave helps explain, why in N. American caves... I believe it was in the Washington/ Oregon area (can't be sure), the bone remains of many cross-habitat animals AND PEOPLE were found, smashed against the cave walls... animals that normally wouldn't have been together!

Also, if I may, helps alot with Noah's story. How long of a rainstorm, do you think, would there have to have been in order to LIFT the Ark? A surging flood/ tidal wave would do the trick.

Anyone else remeber that show on History?

o ya! i remember that was awhile tho

The same amount of water has always been here. It just gets redistributed. No water comes from space, and no water leaves the planet. (very little, anyway) How could the entire earth be flooded? Even if both polar caps melted completely, the earth would not be covered with water.

[Edited on 10-2-2003 by Satyr]

Stories about floods do not really imply that the entire planet is inundated by water. But rather, that for a period of time water covered what is usually dry land.

The list of cultures, which speak of such an event is actually quite long and as well is there evidence of animals and plants. Which lived in warm climates found in locations, which clearly are not.

The latter of course could have been the result of some other factors but with respect to the former, that is in fact suggestive of a real event related to the issue of Noah.

With respect to a pole shift one, which entailed the planet actually moving as a result flooding on the scale suggested for a period of time is possible.

As to how such a pole shift can occur see link....
wwwesterni.unibg.it...

Also, with the findings of sea shells in the the Himalaya's, ports and ahrbors atop the Ande's, the land masses, (or at least, the mountians), were lower. Tetonics... the factor for raising the mountians in the first place.

If there was a world-wide flood, and if these mountians have evidence of "ocean activity", wouldn't it stand to reason that the mountians were in fact lower?

Originally posted by AlnilamOmega
how or why it happened is still debatable.

there is insurmountable evidence towards a cataclysm that had the earth awash in its own water.

Actually, there isn't. If anything, the overwhelming evidence goes the other way... lots of local floods including some large ones that may have inspired the myths. No global flood.

the ice shield is a relatively interesting theory as it has many correlations in ancient myths about the sky falling

I collect legends because I'm a storyteller and an anthropolgy student. To date, the ONLY story about the sky falling is (I kid you not... do the research for yourself) the Chicken Little story for little children. There's not a religion of Chicken Littleites that I've found.

and it would be the most logical source of all that extral water. but its survival would have to be artificially induced and aided because the heat from the sun would melt an unenhanced natural ice shield within moments of its deployment. one or two solar flares would do the trick.

You don't even need that. Just trot outside and try to build an ice "roof" from your house to the house across the street. Now try building it to the house two streets away.

You'll find it collapses and you can't do it. Because ice isn't that strong.

And there's no way to get the ice up that high in the first place.

lots of theories have been invented to explain the floods. one of the more interesting scientifically accepted ones is the mutation of the Earth's oceanic belt, which is responsible for regulating the flow of the oceans. it is a complete cycle that cannot be disrupted without causing ecological changes.

1) there's no such thing as the earth's "oceanic belt." Your source knows nothing about fluid dynamics (I'm trying to not be harsh... but... sheesh!)
2) physical processes don't mutate.
3) Your source really needs to learn more about continental drift, volcanism, and a lot of other things.

I think you should ignore any more "evidence" this person gives you. The logic is terrible and their knowledge of very very basic grade school science is just dismal!

Originally posted by soothsayer
It was on an episode of "Ancient Mysteries" on the History Channel... it pertained to the flood.

someone needs to take the producers out and smack them with a science book. Seriously.

There is a geologist theory that the earth's crust is much too thin for a planet of this age (how they came up with that idea puzzles me)... anyway, because of the fluidy of the surface, the great tetonic plate action (as opposed to other planets), they believe that the whole of the world is resting/ floating atop a massive subsurface ocean.

This isn't a geologist's theory... or not a real geologist's theory. Yes, there are underground rivers and lakes, but the world isn't a tiny covering of rock resting on some huge ocean.

And it's not resting on turtles, either (sorry. I know I'm getting sarcastic, but that's such a lame theory.)

When, say, a massive asteriod or other celestrial object drew too close to the earth, a mighty fissure was created, releasing this pent up liquid (they believe the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is a remenant... also explains sinking of Atlantis).

Well, there's a number of problems with this, including that the whole world would have sunk and you'd find the rocks all mixed up in heaps and piles. It also doesn't explain the very measurable way that the mid-Atlantic ridge is STILL moving today.

Nor does it explain how this "shell" of rock suddenly settled down intact when the water came out instead of fracturing all over the place and showing signs of global earthquakes.

And a planet THAT close to do something gravitationally to the Earth would have then smashed into the Earth and obliterated it.

At first, the fissure drew in the water, as a vaccuum (explaining the N. American Indian tales of how the water ran away)...

Sources, please? I'm quite familiar with tribal tales and haven't come across this one -- ever.

As the tidal wave swept by, the sonic barrier being pushed before it alarmed and notified the world's inhabitants (and the force of God sprang forth, telling Noah... the hand of God slammed shut the Ark's door).

So you're saying that the tidal wave moved faster a modern airplaine (as fast as a fighter jet), and managed to get over the Rockies (taller than a mile high), the Cascade range, the Alps, and the Himalayas (among others.)

You can try the experiment for yourself -- sit in a bathtub and "sploosh" the water down. Let us know when you manage to get the water moving at the speed of sound (it's a liquid, and you probably can't manage to get it going that fast before it vaporizes.)

This tidal wave helps explain, why in N. American caves... I believe it was in the Washington/ Oregon area (can't be sure), the bone remains of many cross-habitat animals AND PEOPLE were found, smashed against the cave walls... animals that normally wouldn't have been together!

Actually, if they'd been hit by a tidal wave going Mach1, they'd have disintegrated. Imagine slapping a squirrel with a board that's traveling 500 mph. Bones like you described are the result of local flooding.

Also, if I may, helps alot with Noah's story. How long of a rainstorm, do you think, would there have to have been in order to LIFT the Ark? A surging flood/ tidal wave would do the trick.

One storyteller with some Magic/Miracle tales could do the same thing. No bodies, no floods, no nothing. Just a wild tale to tell so you'd believe.

And as was said, it appears to have been borrowed from the Babylonians.

[Edited on 2-10-2003 by Byrd]

1. The Rockies are a relativly young mountian chain

2. The Ande's and Himalayan Mountians have evidence of being at sea level or beneath it.

3. The Great Plains was once an inland sea.

4. Oh, story-teller, then you must surely have heard the Hopi legend which states the people had fled to a cave, escaping from a great flood.

5. Tidal waves do not move faster then sound! BUT they do PUSH the air in front of it (Besides, according to YOUR response, the wave would hit before the air pressure?) This is proven along the eastern coast of Japan. History tells of the villagers being pushed aside by a wall of air... and THEN seeing a wall of water emerging from the distance.

6. Even I had said something to the extaent of "how they figured that out puzzles me" in regards to the earth's crust.

7. The moon efects the tides every day, yet no disasters occur. Move it close, wouldn't it have a bigger impact? Like you said, water is fluid; land , although it is fluid (siesmic speaking), is not as fluid as water. Water will move and give before land will, with tidal effects.

8. There is much more water then surface land. When the earth was still young, and the land masses were one, when everything was still "hot" globally, the ice caps, if any, were non existant. How long did it take for them to form? Where did the much larger, deeper oceans go?

9. A theory is a theory, but when evidence in the land structures (albiet circumstantial), and eye witness accounts (rligious texts)... if this were a murder case, the jury would charge guilty. Sure, there are floods, some pretty big... but when every ancient text talks about the destruction of everything, and one person creating a boat to escape (with animals), something has to be considered.

10. And lastly, o story teller, Was it the Incas or the Aztec that told of an age of man wiped out by flood?