NEWS: 1000's Of Tribesmen Protest Against Alleged US Zawahiri Air Strike

Regulator, where do I say that is how it is? Where do I make out it is fact? I clearly point out that not everyone has knowledge of who is in the villages, who is coming to visit and so on and so fourth with the exception of the "Elders" and even now they do not.

Source
The tribal elders in Waziristan can do little more than make forlorn appeals for negotiations.

But the young Waziris do not want to talk. Inspired by the local mullahs, they are vowing to fight.

Clearly, every member of the village asks permission.

Source
"Their features are not local. They appear to be Chechens or Central Asians," said Muhammad Azam Khan, a local government official in the tribal region.

Attackers set military vehicles ablaze while terrified townspeople streamed out of the remote tribal village of Kaloosha.

Clearly all these villagers are terrorists...

Edit: Fix code.

[edit on 15/1/2006 by Odium]

Because it is not a political organization but a terrorist organization, supoorted by members of that community who are willing to hide a murderer, we should do nothing to win the war.

not sure where you go that from, you are stating that everyone in the village knew a terrorist was visiting and as such should all suffer and die?

Because it is not a country, they should not be confronted, they should be allowed to kill us.
Because it was not a country that attacked the U.S. time and time aain, finally leading up to 9-11-01, none of the attacks offficially happened, therefore we should do nothing.

from what I can tell, no. Pakistani government did not attack the country. Individuals who may have come from pakistan or visited pakistan may have been involved. Is this reason enough to punishg a nation? If what Hitler did during WW2 justification to hate all Germans?

Is it right that If a black man is beaten up by a White individual then he should hate all white people? no. to do so would be prejudice.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
BH said

What? The whole country is responsible for the actions of a few?

We didn't bomb the whole country. We bombed where the
terrorists were. If those harboring the terrorists died too...
then they are to blame. Personal responsibility. You harbor a
terrorist, then you take a chance of getting yourself blown up.

But you said the 5000 protesters were harboring the terrorists and it was 'their fault'...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
This was said by the author of this thread -

quote: What we do know is that 5000 people living nearby have protested. Who can blame them?

Answer - They have only themselves to blame. If they weren't
harboring terrorists, there wouldn't have been a bombing.
If they don't take seriously the consquences of harboring
murderers, it's their own fault.

How far out do these chains of responsibility go? Is the village responsible? Is the city? The state? How many people are responsible if one household harbors terrorists?

Were the 5000 people living close to Mohammed Atta here in the US responsible for 'harboring' him? Was 9/11 their fault?

Do we even hold the people who taught them how to fly the airplanes responsible? No.

Blaming 5000 villagers for harboring Zawahiri, when you don't even know if he was there or not is kind of an extreme accusation, don't you think?


[edit on 15-1-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

No, I didn't say all are supporting them, did I? Nope. What I did say is that theterrorist mastermind and his supporters were targeted in order to get him. I also said that collateral death is bad thing, and I don't know of anyone who thinks otherwise.
Of course, there are those who think that there is no such thing as collateral damage, such as the ones who target innocent men, women and children, but they are the ones who we are after.

There's a difference. But, I am also open to hugging suggestions, any feel-good, sensitive way to win the war but take no lives, and at teh same time, insure that we do not see the continued blood loss. Please, I am really open to suggestions

I may be wrong about this, but I get the distinct impression that the Pakistani government knew full well that these operations were underway. They lied to their people because association with the Americans is a no-no in todays political climate.

The tribal authorities are understandably upset, because they're not in the loop, but I'm pretty sure Musharaff was included in the decision making process on this one. It's not as if he and the CIA are stangers...

It doesn't make the attacks any less wrong, in my eyes, but it does add another guilty party to the mix, to keep the CIA company.

Troops...

If you really wish to stop the War, it is about time people start to think first. Bombs do not work, dropping a bomb on a village will kill innocent people and cause more terrorism.

If they bothered to go in their by foot, they would stand a chance of capturing these "terrorists" especailly if they are an important figure. Part of modern warfare is information, and destroying that information is foolish.

BH, 5,000 people were not targeted, only one small place.
Again, considering how an entire city would be laid to waste in WWII so that we don't have to live as Nazis, I think it is much better.

By the way,m I have an idea. How about a highly trained, crack, elite team of highly trained Flower Children? We can call in the Thpecial Forthes Pink Berets! They'll flush the bad guy out, the one who is single-handedly stalking this lovely little community of people who do not support him!

I may be wrong about this, but I get the distinct impression that the Pakistani government knew full well that these operations were underway.

Just out of interest WO, what gave you that impression?

I thought the missles were fired from a drone or outside of pakistan. (though I may be wrong.)

Must I tell people that they are coming a bit close to the edge of civility? I'm about to step out, and I don't want to hear about people acting bad in ATSNN while I am gone. I have to change out a dead alternator, so, please, Billy, you and the rest, put your guns away.

By the way,m I have an idea. How about a highly trained, crack, elite team of highly trained Flower Children? We can call in the Thpecial Forthes Pink Berets! They'll flush the bad guy out, the one who is single-handedly stalking this lovely little community of people who do not support him!

yeah nice idea, you could be chief if you want.

I find it ironic that these tribal areas are now finding that the price of supporting and aiding Bin Laden/Zawahiri will be steep indeed. We are now hearing some reports that Zawahiri was "invited" by a villiager to Celebrate a Muslim feast day.

I really tire of people sheltering terrorists and them claiming that they have never seen or helped them when they get attacked in a strike to take out said terrorists. While we might not have hit our high profile target (Zawahiri) it looks like we did nail about 10 of his group and also some civillians who were near those said terrorists. The claims that the village had not seen nor heard or any terrorists in the area is weak. It's like talking to someone in prison.......everyone's innocent in here and was wronged and set up.

Maybe this will get the point through to them that if you shelter or aid terrorists then you will pay a steep price. I bet they don't invite Zawahiri to dinner again! Maybe they will but now will decide to collect the 25 Million pricetag on his head.

Does the quote feature no longer work? I just tried it to no avail. Ah well, anyway.

TC
Who's Billy?

Klepto

I thought the missles were fired from a drone or outside of pakistan. (though I may be wrong.)

Yeah, I think you're right. The villagers claim the drone was aloft for several days before the strike, I don't know if it was toeing the border or simply disregarding it. Another villager who lived 5 or 6 kilometers away claims he saw planes 'dropping light', followed by explosions on the ground. Not sure of the validity of any of that, just what's being reported.

As far as my comment regarding cooperation between Musharaff and the CIA, it's just a matter of opinion. I don't have any secret information or anything, just my gut. Just looking at the situation we can deduce that the Pakistani Prez is between a rock and a hard place. His goal is to stay alive and stay aloft by straddling the fence.

He can't openly allow the Americans to conduct operations within his borders, the people would revolt and toss him out on his butt. He can't say no to America if she wants to conduct clandestine operations in the borderlands as part of the WOT, or WE'LL toss him out on his butt. So it becomes a matter of plausible deniablity. He acquiesces privately, and feigns shock and anger publically to maintain the tenuous local support that keeps him in power.

Again, I'm not an analyst or an employee of any intelligence service, I'm a nobody. Anything I post should be taken in that context.

Yes , it seems to be they fired from across the border - which may explain that they fired at three houses then.

Pakistan Observer

According to preliminary investigations there was foreign presence in the area and that in all probability was targeted from across the border in Afghanistan. [...]

Villagers in Damadola said they heard aircraft or helicopters before the strike [...]

and (same source)

Interior Minister Aftab Sherpao said a number of the dead appeared to be foreigners �possibly involved in sabotage activities.


Locals said senior Egyptian Al-Qaeda commander Hamza Rabia was killed in the tribal zone in December by a missile fired from a Predator, although Pakistan said the blast happened when munitions exploded inside his house.

The official said that hours before the strike some unidentified guests had arrived at the home of a tribesman named Shah Zaman.

Some unidentified miscreants launched attack from two posts of security forces here in Chashma and Surband areas of Miran Shah while no loss of life was reported.

According to official sources miscreant launched attack on night between Friday and Saturday night on two check post of security forces.
Security forces launched retaliatory attack on miscreants due to which electricity of various areas has been suspended.
After the attack, local tribal also formed a Lashkar to hunt down the miscreants who managed to escape the scene due to darkness.

[edit on 15-1-2006 by Riwka]

from WyrdeOne Does the quote feature no longer work? I just tried it to no avail. Ah well, anyway.

I think it doesn't work while the article is still in submission.

Well, it seems that some believe that only the tribal elders know whether the visitors are terrorists. So, the logical conclusion is that they are responsible for the deaths of the innocents, since they could have warned the villagers about it.

But then, the tribal elders aren't the ones who stand sentry at the outskirts of town. So the sentries, too, are at least partially responsible.

Don't Quote Me On This, But...

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Does the quote feature no longer work? I just tried it to no avail.

Quote doesn't work for news submissions because it could presumably be used to discern the "secret identity" of a news submitter.

Either that, or maybe it's a mild incentive for members who post to a news thread to be sure to vote for the article, as well.

With at least 74 replies on four pages of posts and over 600 views -- and yet still an unapproved submission -- one might get the impression that not everyone who has contributed to the thread has voted for the article.

Not to be a noodge or (hopefully not) do anything improper, but I encourage those who think the article is worth commenting on to vote for it on the first page.

And from way back on page 1...

from mythatsabigprobe

I always expect to see excuses here for the slaughter of innocent civilians, but these are the most distasteful comments I've seen yet.

I can't find a way to respond without making a personal attack, so I'll just shut up now.

Where do you see excuses for the slaughter of innocents? Why do you feel it is necessary to resort to hyperbole to try to make a point? You lie. Why do you lie?

Are you saying that public stonings do not occur in Pakistan? Because you must know that I can google up examples if need be.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster . . . for when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

And that's mildly put, Fred.

All these preliminary investigations and premature assessments of who really was killed remind me of horribly ominous IDF practices - whenever people get killed, they posthumously become terrorists. Anonymous sources and baseless hypotheses have become good enough for that, it seems. A shame.

Howard Thurman

During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.

I recommend this book, based on a true story: The Wave, it's only $ 5.50, a bargain considering it's actually priceless.

[edit] Recommended reading


[edit on 15-1-2006 by Lumos]

- and do you also have anything to add in regard to the topic?

Just in case you are accidently writing in the wrong thread:

The topic of this thread is: 1000's Of Tribesmen Protest Against Alleged US Zawahiri Air Strike

Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader was invited to a dinner marking a Muslim festival on the night of the devastating U.S. missile strike in a Pakistani border village, but he failed to show up, Pakistani intelligence officials said Sunday.

Ayman al-Zawahri sent aides instead, the officials said, and investigators are trying to establish if any of them were among the at least 17 people killed in the attack, which sparked a second day of anti-U.S. protests across the country Sunday.

Two Pakistani intelligence officials said Sunday that al-Zawahri, who has a wife from a tribe prominent in the region around the attacked village, had been invited to a dinner in Damadola to mark last week's Eid al-Adha holiday

(source)

It seems to be that the information the CAI had was correct.

Pakistan is a a valued ally of the U.S. and it is well known that the Pakistani border is a real problem.


IMHO the "official" Pakistan only shows to be angry with the U.S. because their government saying they were only informed of the strike after it happened (but I assume high-ranking officials in the Pakistani government knew in advance that this strike would have happen)

[edit on 15-1-2006 by Riwka]

...if out of all the United State's "Elite Units", SEALS, Delta Force, so on and so fourth they can't shut down a village in Pakistan and arrest a few terrorists than maybe it is about time the United State's refocuses some of the training? If with the 400billion a year that is spent, they can't do that...well...shocking to be honest.

Indeed.

When you occupy a country, you have to use police tactics in place of death from above. The analogy of a city block in America is accurate, a couple of people have used it in this thread and others. If you're trying to catch a guy in apartment B on the second floor, you don't just launch ordinance at the whole block and go in later with the DNA swabs.

The tactics being used are not effective in the long run, they're not even totally effective in the short run (as we're seeing). This has been proven over and over again, in earlier conflicts and over the course of this one. Even with a vastly superior military utilizing air power and stand-off tactics, one cannot expect to defeat an embedded enemy if one is not willing to engage the local populace.