Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW)

Originally posted by dragonrider
Salem, you may well call me a scared person, and you may even be right... however it is easy to hang such labels on someone when you live a life believing that everyone around you is nice and polite and would never hurt a fly..... In otherwords, these are the words of someone who really isnt in touch with the reality that the world can and does on occassion get ugly and nasty, and the police may not be there to pull your ass out of #.

Sorry DR but I didn't intend to offend you, I was not targeting you when I said that, I was more like targeting the criminals who use weapons.
It seems like we live in a different world... Yes I saw how ugly the situation can get, sometimes, but where I live, the population is not armed, so even if it gets bad, you wont need a fire weapon to protect yourself.

It seems like we live in a different world... Yes I saw how ugly the situation can get, sometimes, but where I live, the population is not armed, so even if it gets bad, you wont need a fire weapon to protect yourself.

I guess I should have expounded a bit more...

In both cases that I cited, the adversaries were all unarmed.

In a one on one situation, I would not have worried too much, however, in both cases, I was outnumbered 3 to 1 with the skinheads and 4 to 1 with the gangbangers.

The fact that they were all unarmed wouldnt have changed the fact that I would still have been just as dead if not for a small amount of luck on the first case and my .45 in the second.

Ok,

One of these 'friends of mine' cut a throat of a another bottomhole..

He got 8 years, of which he will only sit 4.

Does this seem as 'heavy punishment'?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

i Belive that nobody has been in prison, in Finland more than 25 years..

My Uncle is in prison.. and he is a drug dealer, had illegal fire arms and explosives.. and he also stole fire arms..

For these crimes he is only 'doing' 1-2 years..

this isnt right here..

too soft.

I dont think that death sentence is the way to go.. but neither is this..



And Springer,

good for you that you are such a 'crack shoot', so am i..

But why doesnt this excelent markmanship show in the people that serve in US military?

As US troops are about the worst 'rifle men' around, right after African child soldiers..



[Edited on 2-10-2003 by FULCRUM]

Originally posted by dragonrider
It seems like we live in a different world... Yes I saw how ugly the situation can get, sometimes, but where I live, the population is not armed, so even if it gets bad, you wont need a fire weapon to protect yourself.

I guess I should have expounded a bit more...

In both cases that I cited, the adversaries were all unarmed.

In a one on one situation, I would not have worried too much, however, in both cases, I was outnumbered 3 to 1 with the skinheads and 4 to 1 with the gangbangers.

The fact that they were all unarmed wouldnt have changed the fact that I would still have been just as dead if not for a small amount of luck on the first case and my .45 in the second.

I understand that, I got 2 vs 7 in Toronto once, after that such things haven't happened to me any more. I respect your choice to carry a weapon DR, but you wouldn't near my family with a gun on you.

[Edited on 2-10-2003 by Salem]

Fulcrum:

One of these 'friends of mine' cut a throat of a another bottomhole..

GOOD choice in friends!


My Uncle is in prison.. and he is a drug dealer, had illegal fire arms and explosives.. and he also stole fire arms..

Your Uncle sounds like a charming guy!


I dont think that death sentence is the way to go.. but neither is this..

DEATH WORKS as a deterrent! It's rather PERMANENT!


As US troops are about the worst 'rifle men' around, right after African child soldiers..

Oh I BET if you asked a few HUNDRED Iraqis right now if our boys can shoot they'd tell you DIFFERENT! NOT to mention a few THOUSAND Germans, Italians, Fins and Bavarians from back in the WWII days!

Our men and women in uniform can outshoot, out survive and, MOST importantly, OUT THINK any adversary in the WORLD!

Not to mention the fact that we can AFFORD to actually FEED, clothe and SUPPLY them forEVER in the field! DO NOT piss the USA off!

P...
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[Edited on 10-2-2003 by Springer]

Fulcrum,

Indeed the US service man is done a diservice in his training in terms of marksmanship. A rifleman is not a post that exists any longer in the US military.

There are a number of reasons for this:

The M-16A2 has a fire limiter (3 shot burst only) that uses a toothed yoke. Even on semi-auto, this produces a very heavy, gritty 3 stage trigger pull, making it almost impossible to make accurate shots, especially under stress.

That wonderful 2 stage smooth-as-glass trigger pull of the M1A/M14 is absolute nirvana compared to it.

Also, at the moment at least, the Army is taking just whoever walks in the door of the recruiter and getting them through bootcamp as fast as possible... marksmanship sufferes.

Also, modern US military philosophy is that most battles will be fought and won with high tech crap and there will only be limited ground engagements... therefore marksmanship takes a backseat.

Originally posted by Springer
As US troops are about the worst 'rifle men' around, right after African child soldiers..

Oh I BET if you asked a few HUNDRED Iraqis right now if our boys can shoot they'd tell you DIFFERENT!

Maybe the iraqis will reply: what's about that Iraqi farmer who shot down an apache with his ak-47 ?

No I'm joking

All I have to say is IF he did he was a DAMN GOOD SHOT! Too bad he was on the wrong team!...
p...
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Originally posted by Springer
All I have to say is IF he did he was a DAMN GOOD SHOT! Too bad he was on the wrong team!...
p...
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Yeah, told myself the same thing
But I seriously doubt that it happened, it was a footage from Al Jazeira... Propably propaganda.

[Edited on 2-10-2003 by Salem]

Springer,



Yeah..

Finns killed by US army..

(and id like to note that the FDF is about the best 'marksman' army still around.)

Springer, you see.. US and Finland haven ever been in war with each other.. not even during ww2 when US was 'allied' and Finland was 'axis'..

Btw.. 'Bavarians' are Germans.. like you are Texasian and US.

And my "friend" isnt a friend at all.. just one asshole i happen to know very well.

And what can i say about my Uncle.. well his only a half-brother to my dead father so..

I dont give a #.

DR,

accurate shots..

Remeber that USMC study that i have posted from 'ex-mout homepage' that was about the 'Iraqi Freedom'?

It clearly states that even the 'snipers' didnt shoot at distances over 300m.. aand that infantry was able to hit the targets with rifle fire only when 'targets' were 20-30m away and very rarely at distances over 100m..



That is sad..

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by Springer
As US troops are about the worst 'rifle men' around, right after African child soldiers..

Oh I BET if you asked a few HUNDRED Iraqis right now if our boys can shoot they'd tell you DIFFERENT!

Maybe the iraqis will reply: what's about that Iraqi farmer who shot down an apache with his ak-47 ?

No I'm joking

Actually that Apache was part of 32 ship formation which was doing a 'deep strike' against RG 'Medina' armoured division..

out of 32, 31 were shot down or so badly damaged that they had to be sent back to factory or written off.

Mainly due small arms fire.. so..

Maybe that paps realy got the Apache..

And that strike had no effect on the armor of 'Medina'..

here around san fran in my high school its nuts

you got the skin heads/crackheads/gangbangers/nuts

i have friends in each group some of them would wake someone in a hartbeat if they thoughet they could get away with it.

but i havnt seen a gun yet, but some of the gangbangers i know all they talk about is how they did a drive by eta,eta...


so you get the point

What the # is a Texasian?! A Korean person that lives in Texas?! You used to just be CRAZY now you aren't making sense dude...

The FINS were NAZI supporters and an Axis Nation and I ASSURE YOU the US Military Men and Women hunted them down and SHOT them during WWII, My (also Dead) Father was THERE...

Whether or not the "Finnish army" can shoot is immaterial, your WHOLE ARMY doesn't add up to a single divison of a Large Nation's army so it's rather a MOOT point isn't it?

Kind of like the City of Dallas Police Department taking on the US National Guard! A MEANINGLESS exercise in futility!

P...
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Originally posted by Springer
What the # is a Texasian?! A Korean person that lives in Texas?! You used to just be CRAZY now you aren't making sense dude...

The FINS were NAZI supporters and an Axis Nation and I ASSURE YOU the US Military Men and Women hunted them down and SHOT them during WWII, My (also Dead) Father was THERE...

Whether or not the "Finnish army" can shoot is immaterial, your WHOLE ARMY doesn't add up to a single divison of a Large Nation's army so it's rather a MOOT point isn't it?

Kind of like the City of Dallas Police Department taking on the US National Guard! A MEANINGLESS exercise in futility!

P...
m...

No,

US has never fought against Finns.

Our Armed forces still have war time strengt of 540 000..

Quite big divisions you have there on the otherside of the 'big water'.

Check back INTO Hotel REALITY my man! Your TOTAL Armed Forces count INCLUDING reserves and HORSES is 540,000. Your "walking Army is about 47,000. In other words a division...
P...
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Originally posted by Springer
Check back INTO Hotel REALITY my man! Your TOTAL Armed Forces count INCLUDING reserves and HORSES is 540,000. Your "walking Army is about 47,000. In other words a division...
P...
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HORSES?

Man, US airforce and army is buying our hardware as it is better than those made home in US, and so are other NATO nations..

Belive when i tell you, no horses here.. OUR army rides with Leopards..

And Springer,

Even the largest US divisions which are those of USMC only have max of 18 000 personel, and most 'divisions' have 10k or even less.

540 000 that is the Equipt part of FDF.. there are more men between 20-45 years but they have not been included.. at peace time..

You really are a fool.

Plz stop.





[Edited on 2-10-2003 by FULCRUM]

Your country has LESS people in it than my COUNTY (that would be a SMALL geographical area that is made up of a couple cities and a SMALL part of ONE state) does!

Go BUY A CLUE! The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex has MORE people in it than ALL of Finland!

YOU need to LEARN how to count an army division, do you even KNOW what a Division is?! The Mrines have the SMALLEST Divisions of our Armed Forces!

You are looking at Battallions Turkey!

PLEASE! Take your LITTLE ITTY BITTY toy CITY that THINKS it's a COUNTRY and get some help!

hehe heh

P...
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Springer,

Quantity isnt Quality..

And our motto is:

"Qualitas Potentia Nostra" - "Quality is our strength"

And all that you can come up with is 'Semper fi'..

And Marine divisions are largest.

You just love to disagree with me..

Because if i would to say that US flag has White, Blue and Red in it.. you would say: "No it has not any of those colors in it, cause it all pink.."



Thats the way you are..



Seriously, will not ruin AVDISORS good topic any futher..

By i must ask.. just how old are you Springer?



(feel free to u2u to me answer..)

Once again you are wrong, but I am used to it. Our Motto is, "NO ONE can even COMPETE" that's all that matters anyway...


You need to be THANKFUL our President is NOT looking in YOUR direction!

63 years old. In answer to your question.

P.S. LEARN the difference between a Batallion and a Division man! U.S. Armed Forces SUPPORT Personell out number your WHOLE COUNTRY'S population!

If I only had a couple thousand people and tried to call it a country my motto would be "Quality NOT Quantity" too!

Hell! When you have NO quantity HOW can you use it? You CAN'T! Again, pointing to the fact that your whole country would fit in my back yard...

I ONLY disagree with you when you are WRONG, which unfortunately for you, is about 97.4523754% of the time based on the MOST recent calculations supplied to me by NASA (which, by the way, has more people in IT than your whole country too! )

P...
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[Edited on 10-2-2003 by Springer]

Orginally posted by Springer
63 years old. In answer to your question.

P.S. LEARN the difference between a Batallion and a Division man! U.S. Armed Forces SUPPORT Personell out number your WHOLE COUNTRY'S population!

Well,

With old age there allways isnt commining the wisdom..

Some people just get senile..

More than 5 500 000 people here..
more than double number than personell in US MILITARY. (all included.. Navy/Army/Airforce/Marines.)



Springer,

If think that i hate you.. you are wrong.

If you think that i hate all Americans.. again wrong.

If you think that i am lying.. yet another time wrong.

I know from what i am talking about.

You sir, do not.