My personal case against the Brotherhood...

in that the Roman Catholic Church as a whole is NOT a secret society

Then please provide a link to all that takes place when bishops and above
meet. Please explain the closed Library. explain why only catholic researchers
approved by the Holy office of the inquisition ( cant remember their new name right now) were for many years the only ones to see the DSS?

I could go on but you get the point im sure

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

in that the Roman Catholic Church as a whole is NOT a secret society

Then please provide a link to all that takes place when bishops and above
meet. Please explain the closed Library. explain why only catholic researchers
approved by the Holy office of the inquisition ( cant remember their new name right now) were for many years the only ones to see the DSS?

I could go on but you get the point im sure

The way you present those things sounds to me like the actions of a secret society but it still doesn't make the RCC a secret society because of other opposing characteristics.

I'm surpised you haven't mentioned "Opus Dei". I always thought they were the Catholics' answer to secret societies.

some might consider Opus Dei the "Military arm" of the Holy office. I would need
more evidence. at this point they are just another group with non mainstream practices and beliefs. And possibly more than their RDA of loonies.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken


Masonic Light...

Like expected...You can continue to downplay P-2 by saying so and so wasn't an official mason at such and such a time so technically Freemasonry is not responsible and I'm sure some people will buy into that but other masons are quick to say in other cases that once a mason always a mason. You may be a mason in bad standing,but your still a mason.

If a member is expelled, he is no longer a Mason. A "Mason in bad standing", as you put it, is one who has been erased from the roll of his Lodge for non-payment of dues. A Mason in bad standing can regain his good standing by paying his annual dues. An expelled member, on the other hand, cannot.

It was the "good" members of P2 who had notified the Grand Orient of Italy about nefarious activities and deviations. These were given membership in other regular Lodges, while the offensive members were expelled. The expelled members continued meeting amongst themselves after they had ceased to be Masons, and after their meetings were no longer Masonic.

See I don't need to personally refute the things you say because other masons can do it for me PROVING that YOU only speak for YOURSELF. You can't pretend to vouch for all of Freemasonry,that's disinfo.

Again, when we say that Masons speak for themselves, we refer to philosophical interpretations of symbolism. We don't have to "speak for ourselves" concerning P2, as the facts are clearly documented. The Grand Orient of Italy's actions were proper and conformed to both Masonic and civil law.

You think the Hiram story is merely 270 years old? Here's an excerpt from the book "The Master Mason":

The idea that lies behind the Hiramic legend is as old as religious thinking among men. The same elements existed in the story of Osiris, which was celebrated by the Egyptians in their ancient temples; the old Persians told it concerning Mithras, their hero god. In Syria, the Dionysian Mysteries had the very same elements in the story of Dionysius: for the Romans, Bacchus was the god who died and lived again. There is also the story of Tammuz, older than any of these. These are collectively referred to as the ancient mysteries.

As I've already mentioned, there is little doubt that the authors of the Third Degree were inspired by the dramas of the ancient mysteries. However, that's sort of beside the point, and does not affect the fact that the Third Degree was not introduced into Masonry until the 1720's.

It is from this book, The Spirit of Masonry, by Foster Bailey, that we will take a quote concerning Masonry and the Mystery Religions. Bailey plainly says that Masonry is carrying on the work of the ancient Mystery schools.

Bailey also claims in the same book that Freemasonry originated on the star Sirius. Take it for whatever it's worth.

The Masonic authority, Albert Pike, also testifies to the relation of Freemasonry to the Mystery Religions.

And Pike's theories concerning the ancient mysteries were refuted by Gould.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken

I'm surpised you haven't mentioned "Opus Dei". I always thought they were the Catholics' answer to secret societies.

I don't think Opus Dei is really a secret society; it seems to be one of the Romanist lay orders.

Opus Dei

The Roman Catholic answer to Freemasonry are the Knights of Columbus

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Snake Plissken

I'm surpised you haven't mentioned "Opus Dei". I always thought they were the Catholics' answer to secret societies.

I don't think Opus Dei is really a secret society; it seems to be one of the Romanist lay orders.

Opus Dei

The Roman Catholic answer to Freemasonry are the Knights of Columbus

Devout Catholicism is probably one reason why the Knights of Columbus don't seem to generally care for Freemasons. Where I live,it's usually one or the other Order per town.

Masonic Light,

So in light of my last post...Is it safe to say that you don't speak for all of Freemasonry given the opinions starkly opposed to yours via masons?

Also,check this link out: www.geocities.com...

I'd like to get your opinion on this alleged Luciferian Order that uses alot distinct Freemasonry symbolism. I think it's clandestine and irregular Orders like this that give Freemasonry as a whole a bad name. I'm suprised no lawsuits have arisen.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
I'm surpised you haven't mentioned "Opus Dei". I always thought they were the Catholics' answer to secret societies.

I'd've thought that that was the Knights of Columbus.

Freemasonry seems to be plagued with lodges going rogue.

The OE lodge explains here why the Vatican attacked Freemasonry in the first place:

the reason for the first Papal Bull was not based on any ideological objection to Freemasonry as is often supposed. Indeed in the wake of the 1738 Bull, the Popes brother, Cardinal Corsini wrote stressing that Freemasonry in England was merely an innocent amusement. The main objection, according to Corsini, was that a lodge in Florence founded by Freemason Baron Von Stosch had become corrupt. Stosch, it should be noted, was employed by the Foreign Office in London and was possibly using Freemasonry as a cover to spy on the exiled Stuart cause in Rome, of whom Pope Clement was sympathetic. The ensuing ban caused widespread misunderstanding for centuries with the assumption being that it was based purely on theological grounds.

(emphasis mine)
Source: OE lodge www.oelodge.uklinux.net...

In my opinion Freemasonry teaches the great idea of self improvement. There are times when Freemasons do not live up to the high standards of public morality and are thrown out of the order. In Scotland Freemasonry is an Organisation that forbids the discussion of politics and religion when Freemasons are in a 'meeting'.

A Freemason is taught from the first degree that he has to obey the laws of the country that he lives in. He is also taught that he has obligations to his family and to the God that he worships. No Freemasonic body will accept any Freemason who breaks the law. The penalty for such action is expulsion from the order.

As a Freemason I can tell you that we do not seek to plot against Governments. We do not drink the blood of the first born child, worship the Devil. We also do not destroy toliets of non masons. As a Freemason I only want the rights that other societies have, the right to privacy and the right of freedom of assembly and speech.

Freemasonry in my opinion is an organisation that can only exist in a country where the citizens are free to express their opinions. The Fascists and Communist govenments took great delight in the murder and torture of Freemasons on the grounds that they were plotting against them.

Freemasons do not have the time nor inclanation to incite revolution. They are far too busy working degrees and grades of Freemasonry and raising money to keep their orders solvent.

Gerard

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
Masonic Light,

So in light of my last post...Is it safe to say that you don't speak for all of Freemasonry given the opinions starkly opposed to yours via masons?

Well, obviously, if I'm giving an opinion, I'm speaking for no one but myself. If I'm relating objective, factual information, then that's universal.

Also,check this link out: www.geocities.com...

I'd like to get your opinion on this alleged Luciferian Order that uses alot distinct Freemasonry symbolism. I think it's clandestine and irregular Orders like this that give Freemasonry as a whole a bad name. I'm suprised no lawsuits have arisen.

They claim to have 200 members, although I'm skeptical. They also claim to have been founded in England in the late 19th century, which is a claim I would call an outright lie. I'm not even sure if that organization really exists, or if it's just some guy having fun on his computer. There are many such websites: "all hat and no cattle", as they say in the Holy Land of Texas.

Originally posted by the Luciferian dudeInformations on this are not for public.

Hmm, yeah the site kinda reeks of someone who's been playing too much D&D, or who maybe got a bit too excited after reading one of Dan Brown's novels.

To StalkingWolf:

I believe the Office of The Inquisition is now the Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith. Once lead by one Cardinal Ratzinger.

Just $0.02

Yeah that sounds right.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Snake Plissken
Non-masons especially on this board need to understand that although well-mannered masons can pop up on a forum like this and be friendly,they are NOT necessarily representatives of all Freemasonry just like my grandfather the steadfast Republican is not representative of Bush and his version of the Republican Party. How do I know this? Because I've met so many masons in real life. People should feel free to give a fair critisism of Freemasonry and not worry about offending masons who may or may not be reading this.

Snake. Listen. The problem you seem to be having is distinguishing Freemasons from Freemasonry. Truer words were never spoken than “No one man can speak for Freemasonry.” I know that might be a difficult concept to understand, but bear with me. Freemasonry, as an institution, is hard to define, because it is so many things to so many people, as your excerpt from Carl Claudy (love that guy – my favorites are the ‘Old Tiler Talks’) shows. Whatever one man might say still only scratches the surface.

The ritual itself does, in my opinion, resemble the dramas of the ancient Mysteries. That is not to say that they are the same, but discerning individuals can hardly downplay the similarities. That being said, the Masonic ritual also differs from the aforementioned dramas.

First, the Mysteries were considered religions in the commonly accepted meaning of the word. The characters portrayed in the Mysteries were deities; they were gods in the hearts and minds of the candidates. The stories generally portrayed their hero gods facing trials and tribulations, and ultimately being sacrificed, that the people might be saved. Almost universally this was the case. Masonry does not, in any way, shape, form, or fashion, refer to Hiram as deity, nor is it anywhere implied. His story is an allegory, a fable (not even grounded in historical fact; the biblical Hiram returned to Tyre and continued his work after completion of the Temple), with the purpose of relating the teachings and tenets of Masonry to life.

In the Masonic ritual, Hiram serves as someone you can identify with; someone whose experiences and actions can be applied to one’s own position in almost any situation. It is a story of virtue, of fidelity, of principle, of right action, and of loyalty. It is not a story explaining how the people are to find salvation.

The ritual does, however, act as a catalyst for study of the Scripture (at least in my experience). I can tell you honestly that since I was raised I have read and studied the Scriptures and related literature much more than I ever did before. Mainly because my curiosity had been piqued by what I heard in the ritual and I wanted to know more. That’s the point, or it is as far as I see it; one of many.

It is also a fraternity in the literal sense. There are officers, there is business to be conducted, and everyone who wants to take part is welcome. One of the greatest benefits of lodge, in my opinion, is that it is a place where one can learn critical skills in a very unique environment. From articulation and public speaking skills, to memory, to teamwork, leadership, goal setting and goal accomplishing, to general people skills and conversational skills. Is it any wonder that such an organization attracts the kind of people who are famous who are/were Masons? Is it any wonder that an organization whose members can be broadly classified in the 4 types Bro. Claudy describes all working together as a unit, and contributing their individual strengths to the benefit of the lodge, would be so successful? Not only do they offer their own strengths, but perhaps they work on their own weaknesses with the help of other brethren who are more so inclined?

I have studied the Mason/Anti-Mason issue fairly thoroughly, and I still have yet to find any argument against Masonry that I can reconcile, except perhaps on religious grounds. However, there is a big difference between actual contradiction of faith and outright bigotry.

In short, your anecdotal story could happen to anyone in any position to have something in common or some pre-existing outside relationship with the judge, be it Masonry, Rotary, maybe they worked together in a soup kitchen last year at Thanksgiving. Who knows? Additionally, if I was a judge and someone tried to cop out by playing the Masonry card, I would actually hit him even harder, and possibly turn him in on Masonic charges, depending on the offense. It is not something frivolous or to be taken lightly, or used as a means to an unworthy end. It can be taken advantage of, and I am certain it does in some instances. Nobody’s perfect. However, the good Mason takes accountability for his actions, and what’s more, should hold his Brethren accountable for theirs as well.

If you have any questions or further information to present, I will be more than happy to discuss whatever you like. You have my word that I will answer to the best of my ability, that I will not lie, and that if I cannot tell you something, I will tell you straight forward if I cannot speak on it. There. You have my word; you can take it or leave it.

Regards

[edit on 13-1-2006 by Naphtalite]

Originally posted by Naphtalite
Snake. Listen. The problem you seem to be having is distinguishing Freemasons from Freemasonry. Truer words were never spoken than “No one man can speak for Freemasonry.” I know that might be a difficult concept to understand, but bear with me. Freemasonry, as an institution, is hard to define, because it is so many things to so many people, as your excerpt from Carl Claudy (love that guy – my favorites are the ‘Old Tiler Talks’) shows. Whatever one man might say still only scratches the surface.

Its what I've been saying for ages. People constantly get the two mixed up, like Christians and Christianity. Freemasonry is a blueprint for life based on morality. Freemasons are people.