Illuminati, tie in to Science then later Masonry.

Let me begin by saying if another thread exists on this I must have done a sufficently horrible job searching for it. The Net is not my strong point, but there is much value here. This is post one, I promise to work and get better.

That aside, I did a search check on Illumanati this morning and came up with more stuff than you can shake a stick at. However, it all seemed to have a certain slant to it... it was all Pagan. Not Anti-Religious as I expected. Paganism (which ever brand you choose) is in fact a Religion. Even Satanist are religious. Atheist alone are free of this brand, as even Spiritualism is a type of Religion.

I may be misguided, by I was under the impression that origanally the Illumanati were a group of great Scholars. That even Galileo and other great minds were among their kin. The problem occured when the Church went to burning learned men at the stake, or attempting to ruin the career of a great mind (as when the claim of the Galaxy revolving around the Sun, instead of all things Revolving around the Earth). At fear of death and even torture these great minds went underground to continue to allow knowledge to grow. Thus the Illumanati was first formed openly and then due to survival went underground and became a Secret Society.

This is where I would like to start with my knowledge. I want to begin with the idea that the Church did not become an enemy to the Illumanati due to Worship (knocking out the Pagan gods as most sites I've seen say) but out of Revenge for the Murder and Torture of Great Minds, and for hurting the evolution of Man through hindering Science.

From what I've learned, and I stand on none of this as truth but only assumption from various authors, the Illumanati had to find a place to be accepted and taken in. To this end they were taken in by the Free Masons.

Now there is a World Wide Secret Society assummed to be the Illumanati who have left their calling card on such works as the American One Dollar Bill.

This is what I'm looking for. Knowledge. An education that college hasn't given me. I admit I am new to the topic, and may have started off by learning misinformation. However this information that I start my trail on seems to make perfect sense. The one key to me is starting with the Learned Men Scenario. That the Illumanati were originally Enlightened Ones persecuted by the Church (i.e. Catholic, a Christian Faith).

The reason I am adament we start any discussion there is because it is Documented that the group existed, including the name of some of the times greatest minds during that Age, and that the Church did infact persecute those great minds when Science tried to explain things where as the Church merely held a "it is so" approach. It is also fairly obvious that the Catholic Church did many conspiritol things, like keeping the text in Latin so the unlearned could not argue or dispute the teachings (if you don't understand what I'm saying, then I can tell you it means anything I want and shape it to benefit me), so it is Logical that while under the same rulership they undermine Science so as to keep control of the citizens of the Religious World. (I am not taking a bad stance on Catholics or Catholsism, merely stating a fact that at least at some point in History the Catholic Church did many things wrong for what ever reason. I do not hold that the same occurs... or doesn't occur... today.)

So I start here, and go where understanding and advice lead me. The Illumanati were learned men who were forced underground by the Catholic Church who opposed Science because it undermined Religous Reason and could cause Revolt amongst the Masses.

Science had two drives to choose the Church as an enemy once underground. The drive to allow knowledge to grow and thus benefit society, and the lust for revenge for their peers. Not only were great people lost, but great information died with them, setting Science back many years.

Looking for help once underground the Illumanati found a helping hand in the Free Masons. My understanding is that this group was also on the "Naughty" list of the Church. It was not explained why, so here I am at a loss. Information on the Free Masons would be very helpful.

Once part of the Masons, many ambitious Illumanati took influential power in the Masons and while continuing the Masons also started garnering greater support for the Illumanati, basically still running the Masons as it should be ran but actually using it as a tool for the Illumanati.

There is no "In a Nutshell" and there is bound to be many answers. What I want to know is What/Who are the Free Masons and When/Why were they Founded. Where they also an Enemy of the Church, and Why? What is the Illumanati's Agenda and why are they believed to still exist secretly? Symbology is very important to the Illumanati, as it is to most groups. What Symbols did the Illumanati create and give meaning to, and also what Symbols did they absorb from other groups before them and did they retain meaning or where they given new definition?

I ask, though I can see it being hard to do, that we keep things a bit Chronological and start with the Original Illumanati, those Learned men of the past. Thank you for the time in reading, and hopefully responding, to this post.

Excellent post. Ive tried learning about this in the past, but all I could find was websites sayin they were satanic cults and misleading stuff like this. Hopefully we can get some interesting things out in this thread.

Well to be honest with you the ORIGINAL illuminati were arabic assasins.
They originated in afghasnistan, as a religious order of zealots. some stuff hapend with them they faded into obscuretiy.
Then adam weishaupt (or whoever you think started the illuminati, it really is a mystery) chose the name because he thought it sounded cool, or mabey it had meaning to him, which ever you find more feezible

It was my understanding that a group of basically wandering barbarians banded together. Perhaps they also were targets of the Church (highly likely, tending that they were not Christians). They were named HASSASSINS, or "Followers of Hash" due to enducing them self with Hashish as a narcotic.

I can see the Illumanati, once driven underground, resorting to employing or even merging the Hassassins into the Illumanati Battle (if you will).

However, there is nothing factual that I have found to support anything other than the Enlightened Ones being the Origanal Illumanati.

As for Adam Weishaupt, everything I have heard of him has to do with RELIGION being the sole reason for the Illumanati and their attempt to control. Looking at a timetable of events, I don't see that take standing because AW's sect is supposed to be PAGAN. Paganism is a group of religious branches, so a Pagan IS RELIGIOUS. Most scientist of the day were devout ATHEISTS, or else wanted RELIGION hand in hand with SCIENCE.

Thank you for brining up the Hassassins, as they do apparently play a role in the Illumanati. But everything I have read has them being assemilated INTO the Illumanati, much like the theories of the Free Masons actually being just an Illumanati face. (To any Masons, I'm not saying this is true. Merely that speculation occurs due to the Free Masons taking in the underground Illumanati, and the ambition of those Illumanati. A forgotten foe is tougher to defeat.)

I too hope this will become a read and respond worthy thread. Again, as it has been in the few posts, I hope we work on ONE TIME PERIOD AT A TIME, currently it's the most ANCIENT ILLUMANATI AGE I am curious about. The Hassassians and entry into the Free Masons are part of this formulative period.

hmm... odd
the group i was reffering to was not the hassins.. or mabey it was. bu ti deffinatly rember reading about an anceint soceity of assasins being called the illuminati before the bavarians... i might be wrogng though as you seem quite knowlegable on the subject. i will try and find the book were i read this and quote it succesfully

Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
I may be misguided, by I was under the impression that origanally the Illumanati were a group of great Scholars.

That is one of the conspiracy theories about them, yes.



As far as masonry and the dollar bill, why are you associating the pyramid with the illuminati? Why are you associating the illuminati, especially this 'underground scholars' variant, as being accepted by masonry?

it is Documented that the group existed, including the name of some of the times greatest minds during that Age

? Where is this documented?

like keeping the text in Latin so the unlearned could not argue or dispute the teachings

Thats not necessarily why the church kept the bible in the language that the church had received it in. With translation there is interpretation and error, and lots of meaning can be lost. Also, latin was simply the language of hte educated. If you could read, you learned to read latin, not the vulgar languages, like english or french or german. So having the text in the vulgar languages, for a long while anyways, woudln't make them more accesssible at all. The literate could read latin. The illiterate couldn't read latin or their own vulgarized languages.

Looking for help once underground the Illumanati found a helping hand in the Free Masons.

Why would a labour union even know about this version of the illuminati?

It was not explained why, so here I am at a loss. Information on the Free Masons would be very helpful.

Masonry is prohibited by the church because it is secular.

What/Who are the Free Masons

Masonry, in breif, starts as a labour union/workers guild for stonecutters. It received permission to meet from the king of england, and had a 'ritual' invoving Hiram Abif, from the bible, and the building of solomon's temple. Later, it starts having antiquarians welcomed into it. As more of these educated people start joining (say, around the 1700s), the group seems to get more elaborate rituals and more philosophical, eventually changing from a labour union into a speculative society that it is today.

What is the Illumanati's Agenda

The problem here is that the Illuminati are a group of people formed at the end of the 18th century by a german named Weishaupt. The group was eventually outlawed by, and I forget at the moment but I think it wasn't the kaiser of prussia but rather the Dual Emperor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The agenda of that illuminati seems to be liberalism, in the classical sense.

why are they believed to still exist secretly?

The illuminati of conspiracy theory exist for, perhaps, two related reasons. On the one hand, when the Illuminati were first learned about, they were thought to be a threat to the authority of The Church, and a lot of really extreme propaganda was put out against them, there was something of an hysteria, and they were made out to be against all governments, all religion, and all ethics and morality, with a plan to conquer the world.
Because of this, they were destroyed, and also because of this, they were so feared that people kept thinking that they were never really destroyed (no one was executed, as far as I know, some were arrested) and that they continued their nefarious plans clandestinely.
The other factor is that, well, modern conspiracy theory involves a lot of stuff where some group is trying to take over the world, destroy religion, etc. So lots of candidates have been 'revived', you might say, and that is why there is fear of the illuminati again, and that is why they can be interchanged with the NWO in these theories.

What Symbols did the Illumanati create and give meaning to

The Bavarian Illuminati, which I am talking about above, as far as I know, didn't create any symbols. The pyramid and the eye far predates them. It could even predate civilization in europe, if Ra's Eye is a form of it (also notice that Odin similarly looses an eye inexchange for, paradoxically, All-sight).
Anyway, the documents of the Bavarian Illuminati are more or less known, I am not familiar iwth them but i haven't heard of any symbols beign created. Weishaupt made the original rites and a mason named Von Knigge reworked them, so apparently there is a lot of stuff similar to masonry, which is much older than the Bavarian Illuminati.
The Illuminati did call one of their ranks "Minerval", so the goddess Minerva, if anything, might be said to be an Illuminati Symbol.
Also, oddly, "minervals" are what is due a person for work, like payment of wages, etc. Don't know what v.Knigge or Weishaupt were thinking of tho, the goddess minerva or this other meaning (which apparently is used in, at least, scandanavia and is perhaps germanic).

BradKellBrrexkl
HASSASSINS, or "Followers of Hash" due to enducing them self with Hashish as a narcotic.

This meaning is actually possible a bit of a myth, or legendary anyway.
The assasins weren't just amilitant cult. They were an offshoot of mystical islam, and have connections with a sect called the "Ishmaelii" and the Sufi. They were a philosophic-esoteric sect of islam.

Most scientist of the day were devout ATHEISTS

This is simply untrue, I don't know why you woudl think it. Most scientists of the time were infact very religious, perhaps not in thrall to the church, but hardly atheists.
Odd that you have the assasins being brought into the illuminati, normally the connection posited between the assasins is to masonry, through the knights templar. Of course, you are talking about a slightly different and more insubstantial illuminati as underground scientists.

las me
the group i was reffering to was not the hassins

I'd be interested if you could verify the name of what you are thinking about, because i wasn't aware that the assasins started in afghanistan, and comming from afghanistan doesn't jive with beign started by arabs (not that there aren't arabs in afghanistan, just not in appreaciable numbers).
The sufi, from what I understand, get their big start in Persia, which could account for thinking its afghanistan, and the assasins are somewhat related to them, and are arabs. The sufi, intersetingly, take power in persia by overthrowing the government and standing religion and replaceing it with their own, which is very much like the illuminati of conspiracy theory.

being called the illuminati before the bavarians

There is a group from spain called the alumbaros, or some such, which translates as 'illuminated' or 'enlightened'. They're a catholic spin off or heretical sect tho.


I had thought that this thread was going to take a different tack. The Enlightenment was an age of expanding science and reason, where the power of the church fell to the wayside and liberalism, in government and economy, along with rational inquiry of nature, grew greatly. I had thought that the thread originator was going to suggest that the Illuminati were strongly connected to this.

Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
Information on the Free Masons would be very helpful.

I'd be happy to help here where I can

Once part of the Masons, many ambitious Illumanati took influential power in the Masons and while continuing the Masons also started garnering greater support for the Illumanati, basically still running the Masons as it should be ran but actually using it as a tool for the Illumanati.

I'm not sure how grounded in reality this viewpoint is. There was some crossover in membership between the Bavarian Illuminati of the 18th Century and local masonic lodges, but there is no real evidence to the best of my knowledge that there was a 'takeover' or that German freemasonry changed its goals to align with those of an outside organisation such as the BI.

It should be remembered that freemasonry on the continent developed independently of 'anglo-saxon' freemasonry, and that freemasonry in the US (for example) grew out of the Grand Lodges of England, Ireland and Scotland rather than those on the continent. Changes in FM in one area would not necessarily have had an impact on other areas; e.g. some Grand Lodges in Europe accept atheists which is in contrast to 'original' speculative freemasonry in the UK.

What I want to know is What/Who are the Free Masons and When/Why were they Founded.

Have a look at www.grandlodge-england.org... and freemasonry.bcy.ca... for some background information on the origins of freemasonry, as well as a recent post I made here

Where they also an Enemy of the Church, and Why?

Freemasonry has always regarded itself as a supporter of religion, but the Catholic church in particular has always has its suspicions. More information can be found:

www.sspx.ca...

www.masonicinfo.com...

Yet another misleading interpretation from the hack Dan Brown. This theory is seen all over in Angels and Demons (which I could not finish because of its absurd, serial-B class storytelling). There are almost no evidences strong enough to assert what the Illuminati started from, what were they originally, and their link to freemasons. My personal theory, that seems perhaps the most believable, is that they served as a cover organisation/network for the surviving Templars, and one of the main other cover for this network was the better known Rosicrucians (since this organisation shared many affinities with Templars, such as gnostic beliefs, alchemy and also the red cross, or "rosy" cross). The same secret network could have later created freemasonry as a more public, accessible and yet "socially liable" cover organisation...

[edit on 21/12/05 by Echtelion]

[edit on 21/12/05 by Echtelion]

The problem with that interpretation, as I see it, is that the Rosicurians never existed as a secret society until something like the 1700's, far removed from the templars.

Also, what gnostic beleifs are actually associated with the templars? The order was a catholic order.

As far as any of them creating, there are two problems. One is that the constitutions of the masons are known, and they primarily are organized in the north of england and as a simply gathering of stonecutters. The other problem is that masonry (besides predating rosicurianism), in so far as it has symbols in common with rosicurianism, those symbols are readily interpreted as things important to stone cutters, square and compass, tiling, apron, etc etc. Even the structure of having a master working with an apprentice fits far better in masonry than in rosicurianism. Meanwhile none of the symbols in common seem to be strictly rosicurianistic symbols, or, another way of saying this is that there aren't any rosicurian symbols in masonry (so far as I know anyway).
The same goes for the templars, but in reverse. Why would an order of elitist chivalric knights change their 'cult' into the symbology and terminology and even structure of phyiscal labourers? It'd be equivalent to corporate ceo's and wall street financialists making up a club where everything is done in the humility and style and lingo of hispanic day labourers, that is to say, a lingo and style utterly unaccesible to them and 'beneath' them (since they'd consider themselves their betters, etc).

My understanding is this, to boil it to basic. After this is what I wish to grow upon and simply place what I have read/heard/'learned' that may or may not fit the picture.

I understand that a group of Scholars went under the group name of Illumanati, and that this word had the meaning of Enlightenment, or Enlightened Ones. These Scholars were chastised by the Church (among them Galileo, who was imprisoned) and therefore were driven underground.

Of any Illumanati, this would be the version I wish to learn about and follow, if not to find the thread die and be satisfied that they merely went under and either continue their studies or died away completely. No nefarious plot needed.

However, if following the logic (and a logic from hundreds of years past with out an eye witness) leads to such POSSIBLE conspiricies, then so be it.

I could see such intelligence bringing about both good and bad. Nuclear Power vs. Nuclear Destruction and the such for examples. Depending on who was in rule, or if a new faction emerged (as often does in Religion) among the group due to differences (Passifism vs. Aggressive) I can see a revenge or defend stance for the Illumanati to turn Anti-Church.

As I stated, most scholars were EITHER atheist or intended to merge Religion with Science. So those Atheists had a clear cut reason for going Anti Church (i.e. the Catholic Church). Those of Religion had to make a decision. To believe as the Church states, or to say that their is a God but that their God would allow for the betterment of mankind, as Science could achieve. Not a view of the Church, who feared losing followers due to Scientific discoveries that took away from the wonderment and amazement of a God.

So, to that end, I am looking at an Intellectual Society called the Illumanati, who was hindered and ran underground by the Church.

Now, to that addition I am currently inclined to believe that the Illumanati found haven with the Free Masons. I wanted to respond to this first, before delving into the Mason Information given on this thread, because I wanted my first response to be untainted, to be as it origanally was. The Free Masons were not exactly looked upon by the Church as best friends (the reason was stated above, but all I knew is it wasn't exactly a honeymoon engagement between the two factions). So I can see two groups that the Church was opposed to could come together to have strength in numbers. (After all, the combination of the Work Force *Masons* and the Intelligent *Scholars* as a unified front has obvious benefits.)

Now, from this I see a place where the Illumanati perhaps could blend with the Free Masons. They would continue with Free Mason life as it was, but amongst a select group they could still teach being Enlightened... except now with an Anti Church Agenda. Once a member of the Illumanati acheived ranking or power amonst the Masons, that position could easily be used to move towards Illumanati aims if done so subtly. For instance, there apparently is a connection between the Masons and the Hassassins, one I did not bring up. Perhaps this connection exists due to an Illumanati who used his Mason powers to acquire that service. Also, I am sure the Church would have been GREATLY OPPOSSED to a group like the Hassassins.

Of course, everything after the Illumanati that I describe going Underground is still not confirmed as belief to me yet. I say it makes a logical sense, but not that I believe it yet. That is why I am here.

As for being knowleable about this subject, I may have knowledge (and I would say it's limited) but what I am searching for is TRUTH. One Million kernals of thoughts may not equal one grian of Truth. Puzzles like these are very complex, that is why they are still CONSPIRACYS.

Thank you for the responses! I'll be studying up on the Free Mason's now, although apperently that will be harder than I origanally thought since there were different areas that were not ... interchangable?

You say there are almost no evidences.... ALMOST?

What evidences are their to speak of where the Illumananti formed from? Even if weak and speculative, you have to start somewhere.

That is why I believe in the early 1600's this group was origanally formed from Enlightened men. I believe because that is the earliest time frame I have heard for the organization. A mention of a band of assassians from early sounded much to me like the Hassassains, and the writer of that response is still checking to see if it truly was the same group I spoke of or if it was a seperate group. That may bring some light on this subject.

What other theories do you have of the Illumanati being Founded?

The Pyramid is interesting. I don't see it as a creation of the Illumanati any more than I see the Swastika being an invention of the Germans, however I do see both being ADOPTED and then used in a different meaning or context altogether.

I have not heard or learned this, but I merely assume the Egypitians were found of the pyramid because of it's angels, symmetry, and the fact that it has points. Points can either go OUTWARD, to lead to something... or they can go INWARD leading to an idea of innerstrength and understanding. The Egyptians were students of the skies, so the outward points works. They were also very Religious and Spiritual, so the inwards take is equally valid.

I think in the Illumanati refencer the Pyramid represents a Top Down Organization. This ties in with the (possible Egyptian, though other cultures have used the symbol) Eye which sits atop the Pyramid. An All Seeing Inner Eye, at the Top of this Organization. This leads to speculation about Illumanati infiltration of other groups, such as the Free Masons.

Learned men would gladly borrow, if not just to change or put their own impression on, such symbols from a great learned and advanced culture as the Egyptians. Perhaps in a sense of superiortiy, but I more believe in a sense of respect and homage.

Originally posted by Taskism
Excellent post. Ive tried learning about this in the past, but all I could find was websites sayin they were satanic cults and misleading stuff like this. Hopefully we can get some interesting things out in this thread.

If you go to www.chaosmagic.com, you will find alot about magic. Go right to the links and you will find alot on this subject.

Originally posted by Nygdan
As far as masonry and the dollar bill, why are you associating the pyramid with the illuminati? Why are you associating the illuminati, especially this 'underground scholars' variant, as being accepted by masonry?

The Bavarian Illuminati took over several lodges in Bavaria (including one in Munich) and received a patent from the “Royal York” Masonic organization.

it is Documented that the group existed, including the name of some of the times greatest minds during that Age

? Where is this documented?

Amongst the great Illuminatus was Johann Von Goethe writer of Faust.

Looking for help once underground the Illumanati found a helping hand in the Free Masons.

Why would a labour union even know about this version of the illuminati?

Weishaupt introduced the 3 symbolic Masonic degrees because many of the Illuminati wanted to join Masonic lodges and were curious about its secrets. The Illuminati was not well founded and needed the money so it introduced the extra degrees.

What is the Illumanati's Agenda

The problem here is that the Illuminati are a group of people formed at the end of the 18th century by a german named Weishaupt. The group was eventually outlawed by, and I forget at the moment but I think it wasn't the kaiser of prussia but rather the Dual Emperor of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The agenda of that illuminati seems to be liberalism, in the classical sense.

The original purpose of the Illuminati was to combat the Jesuit influence at Weishaupt’s university. Weishaupt wanted to do this without compromising his position. Hence, the need for a secret society. It was the Elector of Bavaria , Duke Carl Theodore that outlawed the Illuminati.

What Symbols did the Illumanati create and give meaning to

The Bavarian Illuminati, which I am talking about above, as far as I know, didn't create any symbols. The pyramid and the eye far predates them. It could even predate civilization in europe, if Ra's Eye is a form of it (also notice that Odin similarly looses an eye inexchange for, paradoxically, All-sight).
Anyway, the documents of the Bavarian Illuminati are more or less known, I am not familiar iwth them but i haven't heard of any symbols beign created. Weishaupt made the original rites and a mason named Von Knigge reworked them, so apparently there is a lot of stuff similar to masonry, which is much older than the Bavarian Illuminati.
The Illuminati did call one of their ranks "Minerval", so the goddess Minerva, if anything, might be said to be an Illuminati Symbol.
Also, oddly, "minervals" are what is due a person for work, like payment of wages, etc. Don't know what v.Knigge or Weishaupt were thinking of tho, the goddess minerva or this other meaning (which apparently is used in, at least, scandanavia and is perhaps germanic).

One of the symbols of the Minerval degree was the owl, representing wisdom.

Most scientist of the day were devout ATHEISTS

This is simply untrue, I don't know why you woudl think it. Most scientists of the time were infact very religious, perhaps not in thrall to the church, but hardly atheists.
Odd that you have the assasins being brought into the illuminati, normally the connection posited between the assasins is to masonry, through the knights templar. Of course, you are talking about a slightly different and more insubstantial illuminati as underground scientists.

This is indeed completely untrue, in fact when Knigge joined the Illuminati many of the anti-religious component were greatly toned down. In fact, the initiation ritials for the Regent rank contains a lot of religious overtones.



[edit on 1/1/06 by ConspiracyNut23]

I clearly stated they were EITHER Atheists, OR wanted to combine science and God. They're were few in the middle, being both religious and wanting to seperate science and God. Science was usually a tool either to prove or disprove reiligion. It went both ways.

Many devouts were scientist. Somehow the second part of my sentence gets left off.

My biggest gripe about the nonsense people ascribe to "The Illuminati" is that NONE of them were actually scientists; the society was principally comprised of politicians, financiers, petty royalty, artisans and philosophers.
Many claimed to be "Men of Science" but this was just their way of telling the church to stop telling them about morality.

Most of the rubbish you see written about them is merely white-wash to conceal them for what they are - Communists.

Still looks like I'm the only one in this forum who's bothered to read Barruel's memoirs...

Originally posted by MrNECROS
My biggest gripe about the nonsense people ascribe to "The Illuminati" is that NONE of them were actually scientists; the society was principally comprised of politicians, financiers, petty royalty, artisans and philosophers.

Here’s a list of the original Bavarian Illuminati members.
www.angelfire.com...

Still looks like I'm the only one in this forum who's bothered to read Barruel's memoirs...

There are others, more reliable sources for learning about the Bavarian Illuminati.

Most of the rubbish you see written about them is merely white-wash to conceal them for what they are - Communists.

Is that in Memoirs?

It's a mix of people with a place in duality with the world. Fnord, subgenious, discordians vs. the illumined ones. But there's more to reality than just what we see. Keep in mind, the -0- with 1 or 2 choices as it makes no proof of being an accompaniment. ((illustratively, 02+01 still equals 3)) Eastasia, Eurasia, or Oceania is the ideal 'state' of mind of the partaker. Disorganized effort against organized effort either percolates or dissipates to the masses. Without a doubt... you can count on the two, but the third is not as accountable.

There are three kinds of people living in the world. Those that think they know, those that do know, and most unfortunate... those who don't care! One group takes knowledge and withholds it from you, another takes that same knowledge and does not keep it to themselves. The last group is generalized to not having the ears to hear. But knowledge is short on getting to the goal. Walking it, applying, work, action must guide the partaker to course, as wind (what people don't see) pushes against a sail (it's as visible as words would be) putting you on course to your horizon or future if you get what I'm saying. Take three different perspectives as three different people placed in different spot looking at a car. Take one perspective seeing the right side, the other the left side of the car. This car has some damage to it on the drivers side only. Where the one side would pay too much what it's worth. The other side would only know half the story. The third is free to roam and check the whole car, even from above, if he/she chooses. But do they?

I love what this following person says from his side of the coin on the subject, but you really have to be aware of the whole piece of metal.

chaosgerbil.23ae.com...

There are, however, those who fully realize what is going on, yet benefit from The Con and are deeply entrenched in its labyrinthine power structures. (The elites/Illuminati.) These tend to be the owners, the new royalty, the elites, the leaders of societies both secret and public, esoteric and well-known. Over the huddled mass of writhing dupes there lies the puppet masters, the controllers, The False Prophets. There exists a documented "ruling class" comprised primarily of several hundred families, who are in control of the economy, the corporations, the government, the military, the media, and ultimately hold the world in thrall. The Conspiracy Of Normals keeps the populace in line, as vassals to The Illuminati, but even these "masters of men" may be controlled by something far more sinister . . . do the Elder Gods exist? Is this entire human race just created as a type of food? So arcane, bodiless intelligences can get high off of our anguished souls? Is there no hope?

Originally posted by MrNECROS


Still looks like I'm the only one in this forum who's bothered to read Barruel's memoirs...

The problem with Barruel is that, obviously, he was a propagandist. As a Jesuit, he can hardly be called unbiased, as his society was guilty of practically everything he accused the Illuminati of.