America as.....

... the worlds superpower, is a country that promotes liberty and freedom throughout the world; or tries to. What that means is not to force our way of life down the throats of other countries, but to force liberty and freedom down the throats of tyrants and dictators, so that their people(s) can vote for themselves how they choose to live and be represented; and spends it's treasure and lives to do so.

It is also the country which, in less than 300 years, has shown that it is capitolism, liberty and freedom which has raised the baseline of human existance above all other methods. If you can't make it here, you will fail anywhere else.

If you don't like it don't try to change it to your delusional fantasy of what fits your beliefs. Use one of the freedoms others have fought and died so you will have.... the freedom to move to another country.

Bandar Paul: if you live in America you have no clue, and you are no "American".

"... trust no-one who quotes a loser like "Chomsky the America Hater".

i thought the corperations already sold our freedom to china and india? or is that still going through?

Originally posted by zappafan1
... the worlds superpower, is a country that promotes liberty and freedom throughout the world; or tries to.

The US doesn't even promote liberty and freedom here in the US. Our government has been actively encroaching on our liberties for virtually our entire existence as a nation, and that process has accelerated with the creation of the Patriot Acts and the "war on terror." And, despite the propaganda to the contrary, virtually every military action of the last 60 years (and, some would argue, throughout our history) has had, as its exclusive goal, the imposition of American hegemony on other nations. The CIA didn't overthrow the freely elected government of Iran in 1953 and install the Shah to "promote liberty and freedom," but to protect American oil interests from the newly elected Iranian government's proposed nationalization of oil production. That's but one example.

The USSR also claimed that its military actions were designed to "promote liberty and freedom," and at least some among the population actually believed that. Of course, that didn't make it true.

It is also the country which, in less than 300 years, has shown that it is capitolism, liberty and freedom which has raised the baseline of human existance above all other methods.

That was true only until such time as those who made use of their liberty to get ahead discovered that they could pay politicians to enact laws designed explicitly to prevent others from doing the same. It hasn't been true at least since the massive government reorganization in the wake of the carefully engineered Great Depression.

If you don't like it don't try to change it to your delusional fantasy of what fits your beliefs. Use one of the freedoms others have fought and died so you will have.... the freedom to move to another country.

Ah yes-- the old "love it or leave it" screed. There are a couple of problems with this:

First, it implies, as the rest of your post blithely and inaccurately states, that there's nothing wrong with this nation, when the fact is that there is actually much wrong with it. Second, it implies that those who believe that there are problems here that need to be fixed are themselves the problem, when the truth is that, if anyone other than those directly responsible for the problems (the various power-mongers that inhabit the highest reaches of government and business) should be held accountable, and should be encouraged to leave for the public good, it would be those who blindly support their policies and who insist that there is nothing wrong. They-- that is, YOU-- are an obstacle to enacting the changes that should be made to make this country all that it could be.

Underneath it all, you're sort of right. Capitalism and liberty are indeed the path to freedom and plenty, but capitalism and liberty are both on their deathbeds here in the US. They could be brought back, but one thing that will have to happen first is that bitter and short-sighted people will have to face the fact that they're threatened, and that those who point this out are not anti-American, but rather pro-American-- more so than any who make believe, for whatever reason, that they already exist in full flower.


And, as an aside-- your username surprises and perplexes me. It seems that you must not have ever really listened to Zappa. Zappa truly understood liberty, and wasn't under any illusions about the threat posed to it by our own government.


And, as a final note-- don't ever confuse "less bad" with "good." The (arguable) fact that other countries are less free than the US certainly doesn't mean that the US is as free as it could or should be.

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse

Originally posted by zappafan1
... the worlds superpower, is a country that promotes liberty and freedom throughout the world; or tries to.

The US doesn't even promote liberty and freedom here in the US. Our government has been actively encroaching on our liberties for virtually our entire existence as a nation, and that process has accelerated with the creation of the Patriot Acts and the "war on terror." And, despite the propaganda to the contrary, virtually every military action of the last 60 years (and, some would argue, throughout our history) has had, as its exclusive goal, the imposition of American hegemony on other nations. The CIA didn't overthrow the freely elected government of Iran in 1953 and install the Shah to "promote liberty and freedom," but to protect American oil interests from the newly elected Iranian government's proposed nationalization of oil production. That's but one example.

Reply: Those "oil interests" are, when it comes down to it, "the People".
The Patriot Act, mostly, was merely the grouping of laws already in existance for decades.
Reply: American hegemony? Does America have people in the governments in Germany? or France or Russia?

The USSR also claimed that its military actions were designed to "promote liberty and freedom," and at least some among the population actually believed that. Of course, that didn't make it true.

Reply: true; and the falsehoods of those claims came crashing down... with American help.

It is also the country which, in less than 300 years, has shown that it is capitolism, liberty and freedom which has raised the baseline of human existance above all other methods.

That was true only until such time as those who made use of their liberty to get ahead discovered that they could pay politicians to enact laws designed explicitly to prevent others from doing the same. It hasn't been true at least since the massive government reorganization in the wake of the carefully engineered Great Depression.

Reply: Also true, but it was the Socialist/marxist-like government programs that allowed that to happen... democrat-led programs.
Many millions of people also "got ahead", and did none of those things.

If you don't like it don't try to change it to your delusional fantasy of what fits your beliefs. Use one of the freedoms others have fought and died so you will have.... the freedom to move to another country.

Ah yes-- the old "love it or leave it" screed. There are a couple of problems with this:

First, it implies, as the rest of your post blithely and inaccurately states, that there's nothing wrong with this nation, when the fact is that there is actually much wrong with it. Second, it implies that those who believe that there are problems here that need to be fixed are themselves the problem, when the truth is that, if anyone other than those directly responsible for the problems (the various power-mongers that inhabit the highest reaches of government and business) should be held accountable, and should be encouraged to leave for the public good, it would be those who blindly support their policies and who insist that there is nothing wrong. They-- that is, YOU-- are an obstacle to enacting the changes that should be made to make this country all that it could be.

Reply: There will always be those in power. The "sheeple" surely can't control themselves. I never said America was perfect. Most people who have problems are themselves the cause of their problems, or who are helped to remain in a problem state by those who they vote for. Moreso than by anyone
in government or corporations.
What do you mean by "all that it could be"? Please... give me your view as to what America should be?

Underneath it all, you're sort of right. Capitalism and liberty are indeed the path to freedom and plenty, but capitalism and liberty are both on their deathbeds here in the US. They could be brought back, but one thing that will have to happen first is that bitter and short-sighted people will have to face the fact that they're threatened, and that those who point this out are not anti-American, but rather pro-American-- more so than any who make believe, for whatever reason, that they already exist in full flower.

Reply: As I mentioned, I never said there was nothing wrong. America is still a work in progress, but it still beats whatever comes in second.

And, as an aside-- your username surprises and perplexes me. It seems that you must not have ever really listened to Zappa. Zappa truly understood liberty, and wasn't under any illusions about the threat posed to it by our own government.

Reply: I have everything released by Frank, and some which was not released. I was 16 when his first album came out, and have listened to eveything, many times over. "He also knew that "the government" is those who we vore to put into power.


And, as a final note-- don't ever confuse "less bad" with "good." The (arguable) fact that other countries are less free than the US certainly doesn't mean that the US is as free as it could or should be.

Reply: I'll wait to read your views on what America should be before I reply to that.

[edit on 5-12-2005 by zappafan1]

Originally posted by zappafan1

Reply: I'll wait to read your views on what America should be before I reply to that.

If so, then you've entirely missed the point.

It makes no difference what my or anyone else's "views on what America should be" are. My ENTIRE point is that America is not perfect and that there's nothing wrong with saying so.

This statement of yours: "If you don't like it don't try to change it to your delusional fantasy of what fits your beliefs. Use one of the freedoms others have fought and died so you will have.... the freedom to move to another country." can only be interpreted one of three ways. Either you believe that America already is perfect and cannot and must not be changed in any way, or you're a would-be tyrant of the Mao/Stalin type and you simply will not tolerate dissent, or you've fallen prey to the fallacy that I attempted to point out in my last post-- you mistakenly believe that the nominal fact that America is less bad than other countries somehow makes it inherently good, or, more to the point, perfect.

America is not perfect. To say so is not un-American, and to say so does not mean that one has somehow lost the right to live here. If there's anything that IS un-American, it's telling other people that they cannot exercise their freedom of speech to criticize this country, its government and/or its policies.

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse

Originally posted by zappafan1

Reply: I'll wait to read your views on what America should be before I reply to that.

If so, then you've entirely missed the point.

It makes no difference what my or anyone else's "views on what America should be" are. My ENTIRE point is that America is not perfect and that there's nothing wrong with saying so.

This statement of yours: "If you don't like it don't try to change it to your delusional fantasy of what fits your beliefs. Use one of the freedoms others have fought and died so you will have.... the freedom to move to another country." can only be interpreted one of three ways. Either you believe that America already is perfect and cannot and must not be changed in any way, or you're a would-be tyrant of the Mao/Stalin type and you simply will not tolerate dissent, or you've fallen prey to the fallacy that I attempted to point out in my last post-- you mistakenly believe that the nominal fact that America is less bad than other countries somehow makes it inherently good, or, more to the point, perfect.

America is not perfect. To say so is not un-American, and to say so does not mean that one has somehow lost the right to live here. If there's anything that IS un-American, it's telling other people that they cannot exercise their freedom of speech to criticize this country, its government and/or its policies.

I said it wasn't perfect; it is still an experiment in progress.
Being a "Constitutional Independent", and with more than a few decades under my belt, it is those things that the "left" propose that you should worry about.
I made no mention of anyone losing their right to freedom of speech, or the right to live here; although there is no "right" to live here.
In fact, there is one president who said it best, and I wish the current president had the nuts to say it now:
“Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged”

Abraham Lincoln

Originally posted by zappafan1

Bandar Paul: if you live in America you have no clue, and you are no "American".

Why are you quoting me in your thread? I dont remember writing that at all, can you tell me where? I have plenty of other comments but please sort this out, I dont like to be quoted at the start of threads. Start your rants then ill respond that's how it works.

Originally posted by zappafan1

I made no mention of anyone losing their right to freedom of speech, or the right to live here;

No-- not directly. However, that is the intent of "If you don't like it don't try to change it to your delusional fantasy of what fits your beliefs. Use one of the freedoms others have fought and died so you will have.... the freedom to move to another country." In effect, you're saying that people should not, and for all intents and purposes, CAN not legitimately criticize this nation-- that anyone who does feel a desire to criticize this nation should instead leave.

By asserting that people should leave rather than attempt to affect change, you ARE asserting that this nation is already perfect, and that anyone-- ANYONE-- who feels otherwise is the problem. In that, YOU are a direct threat to me and my liberties. Those who criticize and question and seek to affect change are not, inherently, a threat to me. Their ideas might be, but that simply means that it's up to me to demonstrate that their ideas are flawed. However, anyone who attempts, by whatever means, to squelch that free exchange of ideas IS a direct threat to me and to all of us. YOU are therefore more of a threat than they could ever be.