Bush asking Iran for help on war with insurgency in Iraq.

rasputin:

Saying that Iraq's elected government and constitution is illegitimate because of the American occupation and because of our vested interest in the results, would be like saying that Germany and Japan's governments are illegitimate. They were created under similar circumstances.

Would you care to enumerate, say, 10 ways in which the post-WWII occupations of Germany and Japan by the Allies are in any way similar to the Illegal War and Occupation of Iraq by the United States and Britain? I would be fascinated to hear them.

The differences are astounding, and not just due to the fact that one happened 60 years ago.

Originally posted by Jakomo

Would you care to enumerate, say, 10 ways in which the post-WWII occupations of Germany and Japan by the Allies are in any way similar to the Illegal War and Occupation of Iraq by the United States and Britain? I would be fascinated to hear them.

The differences are astounding, and not just due to the fact that one happened 60 years ago.

I know you asked this from Rasputin, but I would like to be involved, too. Besides, I enjoy debating with you.

There are indeed many differences, but there are also many similarities. I will give you 10 similarities, but there are more.
Let us talk about Germany and Iraq for now:

1. Allies win the war and move into the capital (Berlin/Bagdad)
2. Allies begin the removal of the old govt. (Nazi's/Baathists)
3. Allies hire and train new policemen.
4. Allies had no real plan for the reconstruction of Germany/Iraq.
5. Allies get businesses interested in investing in the country.
6. Allies encountered resistance from an insurgency Werwolf
7. Allies take over and restrict all media.
8. Critics said that there was no chance of Democracy in Germany after WWII. They say the same about Iraq.
9. Truman had to "stay the course" in Germany and pleaded with Americans to not give up on them.
10. Allies came up with democratic goals for the occupied country.

You cannot give up on a country just because they are encountering resistance to new ways. Change is always hard, but once you make the leap of faith, the entire world changes for the better. Even the Marshall plan took time.

No matter what the media is saying out there, there has been a deep yearning for democracy in the middle east. A "velvet revolution" is taking place there. For the first time, people in Syria are protesting the same way Americans did during the 60's. Some terrorist groups are also picking up signs and protesting instead of killing people. If we are strong and stay away from negativity, we will all see a HUGE change in things for the better.

Just because you see it in the news, doesn't make it so. Bad news sells. I believe that Iraq is worth the sacrifice. If they become democratic, so will the other countries around them. Democracy and capitalism is contagious.

Originally posted by Jakomo
If you have a limited choice of candidates, it is NOT a free election (it’s totalitarianism, just ask Iran).

Just ask Iraq. They've been through this before. From the BBC:

Wednesday, 16 October, 2002, 11:41 GMT 12:41 UK
Saddam 'wins 100% of vote'

Iraqi officials say President Saddam Hussein has won 100% backing in a referendum on whether he should rule for another seven years.
There were 11,445,638 eligible voters - and every one of them voted for the president, according to Izzat Ibrahim, Vice-Chairman of Iraq's Revolutionary Command Council.

Saddam Hussein - who has ruled Iraq since 1979 - was the only candidate.

Because of security fears there were even fewer international monitors in Iraq, so they couldn’t accurately decide on the accuracy of the voter counts (it doesn’t matter as much who votes and who COUNTS the votes).

Bunch of sissies. What good are they anyway?

The Sunnis stayed away from the polling station in droves, meaning they are not going to be represented.

Yes and it turned out be a big blunder on their part. They fooled no-one. Now they are scrambling to get back into the process. But the choice they made was their choice and they would do well to remember that and stop whining.

Oh and fyi, the whole referendum was a total sham. The Iraqi people had no say in the draft constitution, which was drawn up behind closed doors by pro-occupation parties and US officials, or in what questions would be asked on the referendum. How is that democratic?

Leaders are elected by the people to make major choices and to draft legislation for them. Nowhere is democracy interpreted to mean that every voter gets to vote on every issue.