The DEFINITIVE Debate on Israel. Post opinions and facts here.

There has been an awful lot of revisionist history on this site about Israeli actions and the States right to exist. I would like to tell the story as it was.


The Zionist movement to reclaim Israel began between 1880 and 1900; its founder was an Austrian Jew, Theodore Hertzl, who believed Jews had no place in Europe. The first Zionist Congress was held in Basil Switzerland in 1897, at this congress the delegates agreed to fund settlement and an eventual Jewish homeland in Palestine.
At this time Palestine had been occupied by the Ottoman Turks for 550 years. The last independent state based in Palestine had been the ill-fated Crusader Kingdom, before that it had been the Jewish state of antiquity. No other verifiable states have existed there in the past 3100 years.
Palestine was a depopulated land, partially owned by absentee landlords, who employed impoverished Arab tenet farmers to till the land. More commonly the coastal plane was swamp or desert, totally untilled. The chief Arab population centers were near the Jordan River, the city of Gaza, and the Galilee.
The Jews began a small scale migration into Palestine in the early 1900’s, they settled in along the coast and in Jerusalem, they began agriculture. They bought the land under the Turkish law in full legality and settled in areas with no Arab population building their own cities and settlements. These Jews were primarily socialists, immigrants from Russia. They were not extremely religious; they simply believed in the Jewish people and wanted to farm the land of their ancestors.
This is not to say that there were no Jews in Palestine before 1900. Indeed, according to Karl Marx, then a reporter for the NY Times, in 1854 2/3rds of the population of Jerusalem was Jewish. Jews had maintained a constant presence in Palestine since the Roman kicked them out.
In 1917 the British conquered Palestine and were initially favorable to Jewish immigration. The Balfour declaration signaled their support for a Jewish homeland in the land. At the time of the British take over it Jews made up 10-15% of the population of Palestine west of the Jordan.
After the British takeover Jews increased immigration, the first wave came from Russia, these Jews started the Kibbutzim, and they were generally a continuation of socialist farmers. In the late 20’s a wave of Polish Jews began to settle in and expand cities such as Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem. In the early and mid 30’s a wave of German Jews began coming to escape Nazi oppression; these Jews were highly educated and further contributed to society.
During this period improved economic conditions brought many Arab immigrants into the British mandate areas in search of work. These Arabs were stirred by nationalist movements to resent the Jews, anti-Jewish violence broke out in 1921, 1929, and 1936. This was totally unprovoked as Jews were not stealing Arab land, they were simply immigrating into the region establishing their own communities, and there is no record of violence against Arabs in this time period.
The British not wanting to antagonize the Arab population ended Jewish immigration, and split Palestine, by removing all land east of the Jordan River, creating trans-Jordan. The British turned back thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler, back to Europe and to their deaths in Hitler’s extermination camps. The Jews formed three organs of self defense. The centrist official Haganah, and the rightist terror groups Irgun and Stern Gang.
After the war the Jews the Arabs and the British committed violence and terror against each other. The violence culminated in the Irgun attack on the King David Hotel, after which the Brits decided they had had enough and turned the issue over to the UN. During this time the British had also kept thousands of holocaust survivors in concentration camps on Cyprus.
In 1947 the UN voted to partition Palestine into two states, the Jews instantly accepted, but the Arabs were vehemently opposed to any partition, they wanted the Jews out.
The Jewish state was considerably smaller then the current Israel, the Arabs received a larger West Bank, a larger Gaza Strip, and the western Galilee. Jerusalem was to be an international city. The Jews numbered 510,000 in their part of the partition; the Arabs numbered 300,000, the Jews had a clear majority. The Jews also outnumbered Muslim Arabs in Jerusalem 100,000 to 80,000. There were also a further 650,000 European Jews many of them holocaust survivors waiting to immigrate into Israel. Had the Arabs allowed it, there would have been no problems, all the current problems stem from their decision to illegally oppose the UN resolution.
The Palestine Arabs immediately launched a war of aggression under the command of the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem. They blockaded Jerusalem attacking convoys carrying food, attempting to starve the city. They also attacked Jewish settlements, while the British did nothing.
In May 1948 the British finally quit Palestine, Israel was officially declared on May 14th that same day 5 Arab countries declared war and invaded Palestine and Israel. There has been much comment on the reasons as to why so many Palestinians fled their homes. One side claims that Jews forced them out. They site the atrocity committed by the Irgun at Deir Yassin. Others state that they left at the behest of the Arabs expecting to come back after the Jews were exterminated, and claim the entire country. The answer must lie somewhere in the middle. Deir Yassin was committed in an environment of atrocities on both sides, the Arab population was in resistance with the stated aim of destroying Israel, Arab armies were advancing toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Despite this the Irgun was directly confronted by the Haganah over the massacre and was dismantled, in stark contrast to the current Palestinian actions against terror groups. Many Arabs fled in fear, but many also left to join the Arab irregulars fighting Israel, and simply to get out of the way of the fighting expecting to come back in short order. The main culprit in their suffering to this day is the stubborn refusal of Arabs to recognize Israel. They are to blame, for using their fellow Arabs as a propaganda front, to throw attention off their own corrupt regimes. They have nothing to gain from the conflicts resolution.

Israel ended up winning the war, and surviving with more land then was initially given it. The Arabs nations did not give the Palestine Arabs a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Palestinians did not seem to care about this occupation of their land by Jordan and Egypt. Their violence was focused on Israel even then, despite occupation by other powers. They committed terrorist attacks against Israeli school children. Their aim was always the destruction of Israel, and the majority of Arabs still want that destruction.

Furthermore I would like to comment on the belief that Israel destroyed the USS Liberty intentionally. Since no one has ever provided evidence of this, I would like to know what was Israel’s motivation in this action? Why would they intentionally destroy a US ship, there must be some motivation.

Debate, and if my history is wrong please tell me were if you prove it incorrect I will gladly change my view to fit the facts.

"Furthermore I would like to comment on the belief that Israel destroyed the USS Liberty intentionally. Since no one has ever provided evidence of this, I would like to know what was Israel’s motivation in this action? Why would they intentionally destroy a US ship, there must be some motivation. "

There is a book about this i read years ago, I read it was a false flag operation but they where caught out, the US not retaliating obvious as israel having the strangle hold it does on america. israel has carried out lots of "terrorist attacks" some there is some information on the web about, they attack people disguised as there the nation/group they want disposing of so bigger powers do the work for them.

The country has no right to exist, i think the jews should leave and give it back to the arabs, they had no right to it in the first place, they have never treated the majority of the palestinians there with any basic human care at all... They build illegal walls ignore the UN and loads of other things.

It will take some time to answer everything, but lets get it started with this little bit.

Furthermore I would like to comment on the belief that Israel destroyed the USS Liberty intentionally. Since no one has ever provided evidence of this, I would like to know what was Israel’s motivation in this action? Why would they intentionally destroy a US ship, there must be some motivation.

FALSE FLAG ATTACK

Who controls the media in America, is it Egyptians?

In case you didn't notice not a single word was said of the incident in the US media for decades after it happened.

If the ship had been sunk the headlines would have been 'EGYPT SINKS USS LIBERTY!'

'The Attack on Liberty' would be the word of the day for months, if not years.

We may have even joined in the war on Israels side.

Israel attacked the Liberty with the intent of sinking it because a media campaign was already prepared that would have placed the blame not on Israel, but on Egypt.


Explain why Navy Jets dispatched to defend the Liberty were recalled, and do it without being silly.

The British not wanting to antagonize the Arab population ended Jewish immigration, and split Palestine, by removing all land east of the Jordan River, creating trans-Jordan. The British turned back thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler, back to Europe and to their deaths in Hitler’s extermination camps. The Jews formed three organs of self defense. The centrist official Haganah, and the rightist terror groups Irgun and Stern Gang.

I agree with most of what you've written but I disagree on the issue of Jordan.
The British split Jordan from Palestine very early on, before they limited Jewish immigration.

This is a document from 1921 that explains a bit about Jordan:

1921-07-30 Interim report of the Mandatory to the Civil Administration of Palestine (UN)

When Palestine west of the Jordan was occupied by the British Army and placed under a British military administration, over Trans-Jordania and a large part of Syria there was established an Arab administration, with its capital at Damascus. The ruler was His Highness the Emir Feisal, the third son of H.M. King Hussein, the King of the Hejaz. When Damascus was occupied by French troops in July, 1920, and the Emir Feisal withdrew, it was necessary to adopt fresh measures in Trans-Jordania. I proceeded to the central town of Salt on August 20th, and, at an assembly of notables and sheikhs of the district, announced that His Majesty's Government favoured the establishment of a system of local self- government, assisted by a small number of British officers as advisers.

[...]

[edit on 22-11-2005 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by HiddenReality
The country has no right to exist, i think the jews should leave and give it back to the arabs, they had no right to it in the first place, they have never treated the majority of the palestinians there with any basic human care at all... They build illegal walls ignore the UN and loads of other things.

If you are opposed to the Jews living in Palestine, are you also opposed to the Turks living in Constantinople, which they invaded and then seized from the Greeks?
How about Cyprus, which has been illegaly occupied by the Turkish muslims since 1974?
Those were both cases of ethnic cleansing and I think those occupations should end.

The Jewish occupation of Palestine should not end though.
That is the only Jewish country there is, while the muslims have numerous countries with tremendous amounts of land that dwarf Israel and may even be larger than all of Europe.

The Arabs are not even really native to Palestine, or the lands of Egypt, Lebanon and Syria. They themselves were invaders who occupied those lands around 700AD and afterwards.

Those lands were Christian and Jewish before the muslims invaded and occupied them.

[edit on 22-11-2005 by AceOfBase]

I see, this idea of a false flag attack is interesting. However in 1967 the special relationship between Israel and the US did not exist. In 1956 America was very harsh to Israel over the Sinai invasion. If the US government new it was a false flag attack why did they do nothing about it. Also this notion that the media is owned and controled by Jews is ludacris. The big three cable news stations are not owned by Jews nor is their upper mangment Jewish. The broadcast news media in the US is pro-Palestinian except for NBC. Certainly Jennings and Rather were, I dont know about the new ones. NBC is not. There may be a large percentage of Jews in the media, as they tend to rise disproportionatly to population, but I see no control. So if there is no direct evidence that the attack was intentional, the benifit of doubt must be given to Israel. Furthermore, the Arabs regimes do have considerable power in Washington due to oil. Its my opinion that the Arab regimes do not want the conflict resolved, because they would loose an excellent popular distraction.

HiddenReality, would you mind supporting your view with some info. Anyone can say the Jews stole the land. I have said why I believe this is not so, why dont you give some justification for your remarks. The Arabs living inside Israel are treated with equality. They have full democratic representation in the knesset. Many serve in the army despite the fact that they ae not required. You state an illegal wall, but what about the illegal invasion that started the whole mess, or the initial illegal occupation by Jordan and Egypt, that no resolutions were issued against.


AceOfBace, thanks for correcting me, my info was wrong on this.

[edit on 22-11-2005 by deathstar1000]

False flag incident? if i remember correctly, the Israelis apologize and to compensate for the incident. if it was false flag shouldnt the Israelis shut their mouths about it?

DID Isreal kill JFK ? You know JFK made it crystal clear he did NOT want the Israel to develop nuclear weapons. JFK he was demanding regular US inspections of the Dimona Nuclear facility. Israel made false controls rooms at Dimona while concealing the real controls rooms 7 storys underground. So they FLAT OUT LIED to the US. What's more, the Mossad-sponsored Swiss bank was the chief "money laundry" for Meyer Lansky, the head of the international crime syndicate and an Israeli loyalist whose operations meshed closely on many fronts with the American CIA. Some other key points :

* That JFK was engaged in a bitter secret conflict with Israel over U.S. East policy and that Israel's prime minister resigned in disgust, saying JFK's stance threatened Israel's very survival

* That JFK's successor, Lyndon Johnson, immediately give Israel "nuclear ambiguity" and so has every US president since.

* That the top Mafia figures often alleged to be behind the JFK assassination were only front men for Meyer Lansky

*Why didn't Oliver Stone, in his famous movie "JFK" not mention any of this? It turns out the chief financial backer of Stone's film was longtime Mossad figure, Arnon Milchan, Israel's biggest arms dealer

Helium3, I dont know much about this conspiracy Ill check it out and post back, but are you seriously saying that LBJ didnt press Israel on its nuclear program because he was scared of assassination. Are you saying that fear of assassination has driven US foriegn policy toward Israel. This sounds far fetched to me. Was Nixon scared, what about Reagan.

Do you have any links I could check out by the way?

Originally posted by deltaboy
False flag incident? if i remember correctly, the Israelis apologize and to compensate for the incident. if it was false flag shouldnt the Israelis shut their mouths about it?

It was a FAILED Fales Flag Attack.

IF the ship had sunk, and the crew all shot in the water, you would have seen it all over the media in America, and Arabs would have been blamed.

If not then not a single word would be said in the US media which is what happened.

I had not ever heard of any compensation, but what would that entail other than them giving us our own money back, and asking for more later?

What you saw was what you expect.

Now.....What about the Lavon Affair?

[edit on 23-11-2005 by ArchAngel]

Originally posted by ArchAngel

It was a FAILED Fales Flag Attack.

IF the ship had sunk, and the crew all shot in the water, you would have seen it all over the media in America, and Arabs would have been blamed.

I'm aware of the Lavon affair. now back to the incident of Liberty. if the Israelis wanted to completely sink the ship and kill the crew they would have done it. All that firepower and they couldnt sink just one ship. Not go inform the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv about the incident immediately and apologize. why do that? Not to mention revealing themselves by asking the Americans to help when they just fire on the Americans in the first place. It be like oops im sorry i shot you do you need help? If you part of the conspiracy you expect to pull away and hide, not walk up to the person you just shot and say sorry, are you okay? do you need help? That don't make sense.

the best way to hide something is by putting it in plain site
that way it would least be expected

so by the israeli's admiting to it and saying it was an accident and appoligize
its a very good cover up
since it saves the ivestigation and so forth

[edit on 23-11-2005 by bodrul]