Why does the Christian God condone torture?

No answer for me ? Junglejake , JKersteJr



G

Originally posted by junglejake
Revelation 21:8 states: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Second death would imply that there was a first death and a period in between. Now, it appears as though the second death is final. Satan and his minions are also cast into the lake of burning sulfer...Yet, Revelation 20:7 states, "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison " So...does the fiery lake of burning sulfur really end their existence, and if so, how is it referred to as a prison from which someone inside can be released?

Scriptures like this further my belief that Hell is simply a holding place or limbo where God is absent and those that have sinned await their final judgement in the lake of fire. I am familiar with the fact that Satan will be loosed for a thousand years however if the Lake of Fire is really the final resting place, than I dont think many mortals would be able to escape once they were there, the only reason Satan will is because God will allow it.

Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by JKersteJr
If you want to read those scriptures literally and draw the conclusion that God condones rape/slavery and cannibalism then that is your opinion, I wont argue with you and I'm not going to push my beliefs. However IMHO you are mistaken, you are reading something that could probably to some point be proven allegory and translating it in literal terms.

So what your saying is these scriptures are allegorical and not true in the literal sense. By that same token I could say that the ressurection of Christ is not to be taken literally but as another parable. In fact the whole biblical story could be taken as allegory. And you claim I'm the one who takes things out of context?

G

Some of the scriptures are obviously literal however, a good amount of symbolism/allegory/parable exist in the book, and there is a reason for that, it was written this way so that only the select few, who accept Christ and are able to deduce the meaning with the help of his Spirit would be able to understand it.

A friend of mine is quite the simple man, he's not really the intellectual type and when he read the Bible early in his life even though he had good intentions, he didn't understand half of it, how can you its filled with allegory? However, this same guy, after he repented, got baptized, turned from the ways of the world and immersed himself in the word, had a completely new understanding of everything in the Bible, hes like a fountain of knowledge now...and not just concerning the word. When you really make that choice to change your life, IMO God and the spirit of Christ work with you and your mind.

Originally posted by JKersteJr
Some of the scriptures are obviously literal however, a good amount of symbolism/allegory/parable exist in the book, and there is a reason for that, it was written this way so that only the select few, who accept Christ and are able to deduce the meaning with the help of his Spirit would be able to understand it.

A friend of mine is quite the simple man, he's not really the intellectual type and when he read the Bible early in his life even though he had good intentions, he didn't understand half of it, how can you its filled with allegory? However, this same guy, after he repented, got baptized, turned from the ways of the world and immersed himself in the word, had a completely new understanding of everything in the Bible, hes like a fountain of knowledge now...and not just concerning the word. When you really make that choice to change your life, IMO God and the spirit of Christ work with you and your mind.

So unless you believe you wont figure out what the bible means, am I reading you right? hmmmmm Are you one of the Chosen Few????

To all Christians
Nothing to do with the thread but can you honestly say that what you believe about christianity and the bible is the absolute truth?




G

[edit on 2-11-2005 by shihulud]

Originally posted by shihulud
So unless you believe you wont figure out what the bible means, am I reading you right? hmmmmm Are you one of the Chosen Few????

To all Christians
Nothing to do with the thread but can you honestly say that what you believe about christianity and the bible is the absolute truth?




G

Yes, thats pretty much what I'm saying but it is deeper than that, there are some that will unfortunately never be exposed to the Bible or the word of God, that doesn't necessarily mean that those people will not be saved though. I just think that if you reject God knowingly and continue on living the ways of the world (which many are decieved to think "isn't that bad") than you dont have much of a chance. By no means do I think I am one of the "chosen" for all I know I could turn to the other side tommorrow.

Again I want to say that I dont consider myself a Christian, but I will say that I dont see my beliefs as absolute truth, but I still give them credit as being what I think is the closest to truth that I've ever come across, its called faith.

Well, work time, I look forward to discussing this further when I get home,

Peace,

Jim

[edit on 11/2/2005 by JKersteJr]

[edit on 11/2/2005 by JKersteJr]

Hell was not created for us, but for Satan and his followers, but because Adam and Eve violated as well, we had to be doomed to the same fate as Satan and his bunch. Were we not, then God would have been what kind of just God?
What God did to keep us out of the place of torment was to send His Son to pay the price for our transgressions. All we have to do is accept the free gift. We must accept it, as we do have free will, He cannot force it on us.

Condone torture? He sacrificed more than you'd ever be willing to do, yet you try and paint God as the bad guy? How selfish is that? He gave His only Son, and you complain because you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Sheesh.

Originally posted by junglejake
Yep

Especially considering you're not even quoting scripture, but eluding to it

yeah, I find if I throw scriptures in someone's face they will not listen to me. I know I would not listen if someone was shoving scriptures down my throat. I have been there, on the receiving end and that is not how the scriptures are intended to be used. Something I know you agree on.

Revelation 21:8 states: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Second death would imply that there was a first death and a period in between. Now, it appears as though the second death is final. Satan and his minions are also cast into the lake of burning sulfer...Yet, Revelation 20:7 states, "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison " So...does the fiery lake of burning sulfur really end their existence, and if so, how is it referred to as a prison from which someone inside can be released?

Yup, lets take an example shell we. Someone who was wicked and evil; the unsaved if you will, that has died in the past who has seen death. That is their first death.

1. ALL the DEAD "righteous" are resurrected and the 144k that are the only living Christians at this time are caught up with them in the air with Christ.
   
2. ALL the LIVING "unsaved" will be destroyed by fire. (This will be their first death too.)
   
3. Earth is void of Living Souls; This is satan's 1000 year prison. The righteous are gone; the wicked are dead.
   
4. ALL the DEAD "unsaved" will be resurrected; literally billions of people this is the end of the 1000 years.
   
5. The New Jerusalem descends to earth.
   
6. Satan rallies his troops to storm and take on the New Jerusalem.
   
7. BAM!!! RAIN of fire destroys them ALL! Correct JJ the Second and FINAL DEATH. Christian or not; everyone will bare witness to this event! I hope you [you as in who is ever reading this] will be viewing the utter destruction from inside the walls of the New Jerusalem.
   

The period in between the first death and Second death is nothing more than the grave. Yes, it is that simple.

Yes, the prison from which satan will be released from is an earth void of ALL living souls. All the wicked will still be in their first death (i.e.. the grave). The final judgment the dead from the first death are resurrected. This is when satan attempts to rally the fallen to take on the NEW Jerusalem (that descended from heaven) when BAMmm! Fire will rain out and a lake of all consuming fire will destroy evil and death. That is the FINAL death! ...and the meek the righteous will walk out and on their fallen ashes shortly after this event the earth AND the universe will be made new as it was intended.

I'm sorry, GameSetMatch. I appreciate your efforts to correct what you think is a wrong interpretation, and I do enjoy these conversations as I often learn quite a bit through them, but I will not change my mind on an interpretation of scripture just because someone tells me to and calls it a doctrine of man. If you want to convince me my interpretation is wrong, then yes, we will have a back and forth. It's not unprecidented that I change my mind; my views today on scripture are vastly different than what I believed just a year ago. As I've read the Bible, discussed its interpretation with friends and folks here on ATS (whom I consider friends, as well

) and gotten deeper and deeper into the Word, misconceptions I used to hold started to lose any ground to stand on.

Rightfully so; You should not take what a man states rather look into the living word that which you know is to be true.

Then there is hope I see it in your words you are open to change.

What is the point of torturing someone forever?

What's the point?

The point is that it's hard to use religion as a control tool if you don't offer a reward for desired behavior, and a punishment for "incorrect" behavior.

Luckily, people really don't think much about what heaven would ACTUALLY be like....so it works as an ideal reward...

Personally, many of the things I think are enjoyable, could be relegated to sins. It's kind of a given that sinning is frowned on in heaven... For example, I love sleep, and in heaven, wouldn't you be able to sleep as much as you want? Nope, that's sloth, and one of the sins, hehe... Don't even get into sex without procreation....you're dead dude, no sex for you! Some heaven....

Likewise, people are used to, and fear pain...so it's an excellent motivator and negative reinforcement tool... You do bad? You go to hell....you go to hell and you die! (as Mr. Garrison would say)...

Hell is a state of mind.

A state of mind that you are in when you are identified with the ego, and with the desires and fear of the flesh.

It is not a physical place, although it does exist in the infradimensions (dimensions below the 3rd.) When you are having a nightmare you are in an infradimension.

Originally posted by JKersteJr
I just think that if you reject God knowingly and continue on living the ways of the world (which many are decieved to think "isn't that bad") than you dont have much of a chance. By no means do I think I am one of the "chosen" for all I know I could turn to the other side tommorrow.

Again I want to say that I dont consider myself a Christian, but I will say that I dont see my beliefs as absolute truth, but I still give them credit as being what I think is the closest to truth that I've ever come across, its called faith.

Sorry but faith in religion is one thing I dont have. I see no need for it, it makes no sense. I mean following Jesus and/or God(s) like sheep just on the off chance that heaven exists or whatever is not in my equation of how things are. I'll take the chance and live in the now for myself and my family. The concept of heaven makes no sense logically and even if it did exist I don't think I'd want to go there for eternity. Hell makes even less sense.
The truth... I dont know but religion is way down my list, I cant even entertain the notion its so illogical and nonsensical.

G