Sniper "Ranking"

Originally posted by SEAL Trident

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
But when it comes to accuracy I think that the M-82 comes very close to the 1st place. With it's range of 1800 meters i think that it makes any opponent scared...

[edit on 21-10-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

Actually, the M-82 isn't really that accurate. It uses the same ammunition as the .50 Machine Guns do, and those aren't meant for accuracy, but for firepower[obviously] and range.

As for the most accurate snipers, I would have to say a lot of Russians from WW2. Both men and women. Look at examples like Stalingrad. Here's an example of 1 such sniper:

www.vor.ru...

dang..........



[edit on 22-10-2005 by SEAL Trident]

Some guys from SpN GRU were getting over 200k's in as little as 2 months during 1st and 2nd Chechen wars, none of this is made public yet.

On M82, most snipers use sniper-grade ammunition, not standard FMJ's.

Originally posted by kaskad
Some guys from SpN GRU were getting over 200k's in as little as 2 months during 1st and 2nd Chechen wars, none of this is made public yet.

I wasn't aware that civilians counted as a kill ? Only enemy combatants are classed as an official kill

• Matthais Hetzenauer of Tyrol fought at the Eastern Front from 1943 to the end of the war, and with 345 certified hits is the most successful German sniper.
  
• Sepp Allerberger of Salzburg fought at the Eastern Front from December 1942, to the end of the war, and with 257 certified hits is the second-best German sniper.
  
• HelMut Wirnsberger of Styria fought at the Eastern Front from September 1942, to the end of the war and scored 64 certified hits (after being wounded he served for some time as instructor on a sniper training course)
  

I am currently reading a book titled Sniper by Adrian Gilbert. Of intrest to me in this book was of course the evolution of the sniper and the tools of the craft but also of note was the advent of mounting a rifle telescope on the M2 .50 caliber machine gun. What startled me about this evolution was that according to Adrian Gilberts history ..it was first tried in Korea. I had always assumed it was first tried in Vietnam. I found this very intresting. Though the tools of the trade by technology have moved far in advance of what was available in Korea and Vietnam...the basics seem to still be there especially in the arena of Scouting or reconnisance. Just basic information gathering by stealth. This too I found intresting. Most of us tend to think of snipers as good shooters..so it was intresting to me to also read of them often being used as hands on/real time information sources ..in the field.
Nevertheless...I had always assumed....incorrectly..that the M2 .50 machine gun..telescope mounting was more of a recent development...I stand corrected.

Thanks,
Orangetom

How do you rank a sniper?

I guess you can do it two ways:

1. Number of kills
2. Sniper contest

Of course, you wouldn't be able to get every single military sniper in the world together on the same day for the same competition. And many, I'll bet, have to remain anonymous because they are special forces. So, confirmed kills is the way to go. Unless someone can suggest something else.

Originally when i opened the thread a kill count was on my mind, but of course there are several way of sorting out the "best"

1.total kill count
2.kills/time
3.longest shots

But of course one must allways keep in mind that even tough some these men dispatched a battalion worth of men into the "happier hunting grounds" alone, they still were just soldiers who did what they had to do... and so did many many others, most battles were not decided by specialists like snipers but by bravery and skill of the regular riflemen and other "grunts"



On the accuracy issue: No caliber is inherently unaccurate, but some are harder to use effectively in combat (high trajectory, fierce recoil) And No rifle can shoot

northwolf,
had some good times with a Saiga (.308) this past summer.
It was actually pretty accurate with standard ADF FMJ's.

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by kaskad
Some guys from SpN GRU were getting over 200k's in as little as 2 months during 1st and 2nd Chechen wars, none of this is made public yet.

I wasn't aware that civilians counted as a kill ? Only enemy combatants are classed as an official kill

Slushaj, idika i vypej yadu, zhivotnoe.

Jep, the hunting Saigas are good weapons as are the Shotguns, but the gun i was refering to was a M3 in 7.62x39 and being essentially just a standard AK i was very suprised to see it shoot that well...

When this thread began, it reputed that a Canadian sniper was credited with the longest kill by a sniper. Since then, it has come to light that the wrong Canadian had been credited with the kill. Cpl. Arron Perry had been credited with the kill. In reality, Cpl. Rob Furlong was the actual record holder.

The Canadian Sniper team was awarded the Bronze Star by the U.S. military but only after the sniper teams had fallen into an investigation concerning the desecration of the body of an enemy combatant.

The entire incident is covered in a McLeans Magazine article found here

This may be of some interest.
____________________________________________________________________

Sniper Success

Cpl. Sean Maraj
First published July 21, 2003

If it's true that a sniper can stop an entire army, then a Dutch sniper must be an enemy soldier's worst nightmare.

Glamoc - In a recent competition, snipers from Canada, France, Netherlands and Spain took part in a three day event held on June 9 - 11 aimed at testing the various skills required to be an effective sniper as well as providing the opportunity for an exchange of information and skills from different countries. At the end of the competition top honours went to the Dutch team, which took the prize in the long-range competition as well as finishing as the best overall team.
An invaluable learning opportunity

According to one Warrant Officer of the Canadian Second Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, and one of the key organisers of the event, the competition was designed not only to test the skills of the participants but also to provide an invaluable learning opportunity. "The main goal of this is to get snipers from various countries together and just exchange the way we do things with each other," he said.
The competition itself consisted of several different aspects, which included a stalking exercise, a long-range shoot, a multi-target engagement, a pistol shoot, a spotter's shoot as well as a timed stress shoot. Each part of the competition looked at how well participants were able to use the most vital skills of their trade. Members of the Dutch team, whose names and identities cannot be revealed for security reasons, were very happy with their performance in the competition and thought that overall they walked away with much more than when they came. "It went very well," the lead shooter for the Dutch team said, "We learned a lot of new things and the experience was good."
The Canadian team finished second in the overall team, "Overall it wasn't too bad," the Canadian sniper said, "The first two days we shot well, the last day wasn't so great. If we had more range time we could have done better."
The Canadian sniper agreed with his counterpart on the Dutch team that overall the competition's real strength was in allowing the various teams to gain more experience and learn new skills. "Absolutely [this was a good experience]. When you work with other countries you learn different techniques and see different levels," he said.
Both members of the winning team for the Dutch pointed out that while they were happy with their performance, - they thought that the learning experience of seeing other countries at work was the real prize of the competition. "We are100 per cent more experienced, we saw other countries and shared some experiences with the other snipers," the spotter of the Dutch team said, "I would come back definitely. I could do this for six months. This is the best thing we've done since we've been here." The competition turned out to be a great success and all the teams did very well. Some of the teams faced added difficulties but were able to improvise and finish strongly.

Related links:
Nations of SFOR: Canada, France, Spain,
SFOR at Work





Photos: Sgt. Carole Morissette
A spotter guides the shooter on target.



A sniper takes aim.

You guys might be interested in this page

www.snipercentral.com/

If you want to learn about sniper tactics, there are books "Ultimate sniper" and "Advanced ultimate sniper" by USAR Major John Plaster (ret.), probably best books on sniping in the world.

Originally posted by Duby78
You guys might be interested in this page

www.snipercentral.com/

If you want to learn about sniper tactics, there are books "Ultimate sniper" and "Advanced ultimate sniper" by USAR Major John Plaster (ret.), probably best books on sniping in the world.

John PLaster was with MACV-SOG in Vietnam. They have to be the toughest special forces men ever to hvae served. They out every other unit past and present to shame, many of their missions were literally suicidal. I recommend to anyone interested to read the few books he has written about MACV-SOG.

The greatest rifle shot ever, I don't think any of those listed before this compare:

For background, the Farr Trophy is a trophy for the high shooter in the 1000 yard any sight any gun Wimbleton match at Camp Perry each year. It's named after George Farr in commemoration of the remarkable feat he did at the 1921 Wimbleton Cup.

"Perhaps the greatest feat in competition with the NM '03 was by a civilian shooter, George R. Farr from Washington state, who took second-place honors at the 1921 Wimbledon Cup Match at Camp Perry. The course then, as now, required 20 shots from the prone position at 1,000 yds. Dick Culver-noted Marine shooter, DCM official, collector, shooter and prolific writer of historical articles on competitive shooting-probably knows more about the singular event than anyone. Dick's father, a Marine Corps distinguished shooter, was there.

"Mr. Farr had drawn a National Match Rifle at Perry in 1921.[In those days, shooters could "borrow" a rifle to enter matches]. He didn't have a spotting scope, so he took an old pair of binoculars and sawed them in half and used that as a spotting scope. He drew the issue ammunition because it was free. He didn't have any 1,000-yd. dope on the rifle. He'd just gotten some 600-yd dope.

"Farr went over it with a sight micrometer. He laid down and his first shot was a four, which is unreal considering the elevation he had to put on. He caught the next one in the five-ring. He shot 20 consecutive bullseyes, and climbed out of position. The officials said, 'You're not finished yet.' " Farr was in a shoot-off with a Marine sergeant named Atkins, who was using a scoped Springfield firing Remington commercial ammunition.

The duel between Farr and the Marine lasted the rest of the day, under grueling Camp Perry conditions. Range officers provided issue service "tin can" ammunition. "When he got back into position, Farr shot until the [light] gave out and he could no longer see. In all, he ran 70 consecutive bulls-eyes before he dropped out. My daddy watched him do this. The funny thing was that this gentleman was 62 years old when he did this and didn't wear glasses."

"The officials said, 'Mr. Farr if you'd like to purchase this rifle, you can.' It was about $41, and he didn't have the money. All of the civilian teams got together and kicked in the money and bought the rifle for him, and a case of ammunition. They put a plaque on the side of the rifle." [The gun has since been donated to the NRA museum].

Culver said the Marine who bested Farr shot 76 consecutive bullseyes with his scoped rifle, but nobody remembers that. In fact, the following year, a trophy was presented to the high shooter in the Wimbledon match in honor of Farr's remarkable accomplishment. The Farr Trophy has been a standard since then."

There's several remarkable things that the article doesn't mention:

--- Farr wore only a long sleeved shirt for the 70 rounds of 30-06 he fired;

--- IIRC (and I can't find this out for sure), the 1921 bullseye was V-ring of 36 inches;

--- as far as I know, the sights he was using were the old blade style sights (like a pistol).

Farr is today an enigma. Presumably he was a shooter of some sort to show up at Camp Perry, but I can't find out anything else about him, either before or after this match. My source for this post was an article from the July 2003 American Rifleman on the 1903 NM Springfield.

Still, to shoot 70 rounds into a 3 foot bullseye over the course of a hot, windy, summer Ohio day using iron sights on a borrowed gun is truly what I consider the most remarkable feat in the history of match shooting.

reply to post by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy

Its a dream, a illusion to believe marine snipers are the best in the world. This is not an opinion but a fact. You can watch movies, read books or whatever propaganda but I lived it and know for fact the top snipers in the world are Eastern European. Marines, Delta ect. are very good but not the best.

Iceman

Ranking snipers is like trying to rank the all time best black projects... It's nearly impossible because we lack data. Even up to the American civil war "sniping" was considered dishonorable and snipers almost never survived capture. Add to this that the only time a sniper is publicized is if it fits a propaganda value. Where "fighting" especially what some would consider government sanctioned premeditated homicide is so strongly stigmatized currently we may never know the true extent of the skills of any of the SUPERB snipers from nations across the world operating now.

More impressive, in my oppinion. Is Staff Sgt Jim Gilliland's confirmed kill from 1365 yards, with a 7.62 !! One shot, one kill, without the fancy .50 cal!

Torus

Originally posted by McGuirk

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
By far the Best Female sniper....
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Was that the story that was the basis for the movie Enemy at the Gates?

Nope, that was Vasily Zaitsev. 242 confirmed kills with a Mosin-Nagant M1891 with a 3x scope, might have had up to 500 kills. Snipers he trained killed 3000 Nazis. At Stalingrad, he may have engaged in a sniper duel with Heinz Thorvald, but this might have been Soviet propaganda.

reply to post by LiquidationOfDiscrepancy


Canada now produces the best snipers and thats a documented fact.
A former canadian sniper from 3 rd Battalion PPCLI is in the guiness
book of world records for the longest kill he is now a police officer.
Mcpl Budge 2 nd Batalion PPCLI (ret)

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Canada now produces the best snipers and thats a documented fact.
A former canadian sniper from 3 rd Battalion PPCLI is in the guiness
book of world records for the longest kill he is now a police officer.
Mcpl Budge 2 nd Batalion PPCLI (ret)

Controversial. It's a documented fact that Canada produced the longest range sniper kill, meaning that they produced one of the best shots in the sniper community at that time. This doesn't mean that he was the best sniper, just that he was a good shot.

I've said it before - All snipers are good shots, but not all good shots are snipers.

I came third on my sniper cadre in the shooting element of the sniper badge test yet I failed the course. I out shot most of the people on the course who qualified as snipers. The simple reason is that they were better at stalking than me. There's more to "ranking" a sniper (if such a thing is possible) than counting kills or distances.

reply to post by SportyMB


The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,430 meters (2,657 yd, or 1.51 miles), accomplished by Corporal Rob Furlong, a sniper from Newfoundland, Canada, in March 2002 during the war in Afghanistan. Corporal Rob Furlong made this record-breaking kill while he was participating in Operation Anaconda. He was serving with Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI) at the time. To make the kill, he used a .50 caliber BMG (12.7 mm) McMillan TAC-50 bolt-action rifle. Wasnt a Marine