Masonic Symblolism

Originally posted by saint4God
What's "symbolic" of a yield sign?

A yield sign is in itself a symbol. If you're driving in Germany, and you a sign that is an inverted triangle, painted white and red, you know it means "yield", even though you can't read the word on it, assuming you don't know German. The inverted triangle sign is a universal symbol that means "yield".

And how does that relate to masonry?

In the yield sign story, we see that there are indeed symbols that have nothing to do with Christianity that can, in fact, better a Christian's life. In this example, by yielding before he is ran over by a Mack truck. Masonic symbols concern such things as individual liberty, equality under the law, etc., all of which are ideals that can be adopted by the Christian, and should be.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's also interesting to note when asking for specifics, I get more colourful allegories.

S4G

My assumption (correctly as it turned out) was that ML would reply as part of the ongoing discussion between you. My interjection was purely (an attempt at) humor. I'm sorry if it upset you.

Originally posted by Leveller
What about a compassion for your fellow man?
It's all "me me me me" isn't it? It's "my salvation", "my relationship with God". It's an arrogant smugness that really goes against the grain.

With all due respect, that's a bit of an arrogant judgement about me. I never used the word "my", you did. Also, how can you lead someone to the top of a mountain if you don't know the way to climb it yourself. Yes, when people approach God, often they're thinking about themselves. After finding Him, they spend the rest of their lives trying to encourage people to go up the mountain with them. Guess what stage I'm at.

Originally posted by Leveller
I don't believe that being a Christian "guarantees" you anything. In fact, Biblical text doesn't guarantee a thing.

John 3:16. Romans 6:23. Ephesians 2:8-9. Acts 16:31. John 6:47. 1 John 5:13. Etc. Etc. Etc. It's a book about promises. The Old Testament demonstrates just how many we break. The New shows the promise in effect. I'm sure a lawyer could tell you whether the language used is a guarentee or not, but I don't think it takes someone of such a high legal background to understand it.

Originally posted by Leveller
Jesus states by way of parable that you have to earn Salvation. It was the Church which taught you that it comes for free.

Per verses quoted, they are not parables and state heaven is a free gift from God.

Originally posted by Leveller
So what more does a person need? I'd say something other than blinkers.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

With all due respect, that's a bit of an arrogant judgement about me.

Hmmm. Yet you would claim the right to judge others for yourself?
There's a word fot that. Begins with "H", ends with "E" and has the letters "YPOCRIT" in the middle.

As for the rest of you post? Pah!!! There are plenty of other places it says otherwise. You just picked the passages you wanted (as usual) to suit your needs.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Masonic symbols concern such things as individual liberty, equality under the law, etc., all of which are ideals that can be adopted by the Christian, and should be.

Hey! Now we're getting somewhere. I'd hoped to given our past discussions Masonic Light, and will say for the some-billionth time, that I appreciate it. HOKAY, let's get to work.

Now, if the cross is only one symbol amoung many, does that make it of equal importance?

Would any symbol be held above the cross?

Why do many (I don't know if all do not) Masonic symbols not include the cross?

Why do these ideals need to be represented by symbols? Should they not be second nature to a Christian according to what they've read in the Book?

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Trinityman
S4G

My assumption (correctly as it turned out) was that ML would reply as part of the ongoing discussion between you. My interjection was purely (an attempt at) humor. I'm sorry if it upset you.

Not at all Trinityman, I've appreciated the courtesy and politeness you've extended to all the people here on ATS, myself included. I tend to "dig in" to these topics and don't mean my candidness in an aggressively offensive or malicious manner. I apologize if I took humor seriously. Sometimes it's hard to discern when the conversation is being "stepped up".

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Leveller
Hmmm. Yet you would claim the right to judge others for yourself?

No, where are you getting that from?

Originally posted by Leveller
There's a word fot that. Begins with "H", ends with "E" and has the letters "YPOCRIT" in the middle.

Thanks for the education, but I'm well versed in word definitions and am familiar with what Jesus says about hypocrisy. If you see a place where it is occurring then be a brother and point it out to me please so that I may not stumble.

Originally posted by Leveller
As for the rest of you post? Pah!!! There are plenty of other places it says otherwise.

Such as? Not very fair that I have to do my end of the work though you're unwilling to do yours.

Originally posted by Leveller
You just picked the passages you wanted (as usual) to suit your needs.

I didn't make anything up, I just pointed out in context where they were. I encourage anyone to read it (before it and after it too for that matter to ensure context) and make their own assessment. It's not my job make anyone believe anything, nor would I want to.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


Now, if the cross is only one symbol amoung many, does that make it of equal importance?

That would depend on the situation, as well as defining exactly what it is that we're talking about. It all depends on whether we're talking about driving in Germany (when the yield sign is more important) or religious instruction (in which the case the cross is obviously more important).

Would any symbol be held above the cross?

Again, that would depend on what we were talking about.

Why do many (I don't know if all do not) Masonic symbols not include the cross?

A cross is not a symbol of Masonry; Masons do not use crosses to lay bricks or spread mortar, or measure a wall. Some Masonic symbols have incorporated crosses (especially the Rose Croix and Templar orders), which is a result of Christian influence within the fraternity. But, obviously, crosses play no role in operative stone and brick masonry.

Why do these ideals need to be represented by symbols? Should they not be second nature to a Christian according to what they've read in the Book?

Should they? Of course. But "should they" and "are they" are two very distinct questions. Once again, Masonry only makes sense if placed in its proper historical context, which is the Enlightenment. Christians SHOULD be charitable, reasonable, and freedom loving. But the fact is that, in the dark ages, it just wasn't so, at least concerning the faith's governing bodies. Therefore, something else was obviously needed, and this need spurred the evolution of freemasonry from an operative guild to a speculative fraternity.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
That would depend on the situation, as well as defining exactly what it is that we're talking about. It all depends on whether we're talking about driving in Germany (when the yield sign is more important) or religious instruction (in which the case the cross is obviously more important).

Sounds to me the cross is just another tool in the toolkit. Is that an accurate assessment?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Would any symbol be held above the cross?

Again, that would depend on what we were talking about.

How about enlightment? wisdom? eternity? salvation? truth? right vs. wrong? Pick one or all, where we begin isn't that important. The non-specific talk is forest of confusion. Is that what Masonry embodies? Or do they just treat inquirers that way?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
A cross is not a symbol of Masonry; Masons do not use crosses to lay bricks or spread mortar, or measure a wall....But, obviously, crosses play no role in operative stone and brick masonry.

So is the "G" is used to lay bricks, spread mortar, or measure a wall?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Why do these ideals need to be represented by symbols? Should they not be second nature to a Christian according to what they've read in the Book?

Should they? Of course. But "should they" and "are they" are two very distinct questions. Once again, Masonry only makes sense if placed in its proper historical context, which is the Enlightenment. Christians SHOULD be charitable, reasonable, and freedom loving. But the fact is that, in the dark ages, it just wasn't so, at least concerning the faith's governing bodies. Therefore, something else was obviously needed, and this need spurred the evolution of freemasonry from an operative guild to a speculative fraternity.

The problem with the dark ages is the lack of reading the Book. This no longer is a problem. Why then a need for a church-resistance group?

Speculative fraternity? What does that mean?

Originally posted by saint4God


Sounds to me the cross is just another tool in the toolkit. Is that an accurate assessment?

But the cross is not "another tool in the toolkit". That was my point about the cross not being a Masonic symbol, per se: it has no reference to the craft of stonemasonry as a trade.

How about enlightment? wisdom? eternity? salvation? truth? right vs. wrong? Pick one or all, where we begin isn't that important. The non-specific talk is forest of confusion. Is that what Masonry embodies? Or do they just treat inquirers that way?

I don't understand your confusion here; different symbols, by their very definition, symbolize different things. To make it even more complex, even the same symbol can symbolize different things to different people. There are no easy answers, and this is what makes the subject of symbolism capable of giving way to profound study. One certainly does not have to be a Mason to study symbolism; Jung did an excellent job without being an initiate. I think that here, you are looking for black-and-white answers, when in fact, no black-and-white answers exist.

So is the "G" is used to lay bricks, spread mortar, or measure a wall?

Since "G" denotes "Geometry", yes, geometry is certainly used to lay bricks and measure walls.

The problem with the dark ages is the lack of reading the Book. This no longer is a problem.

I would argue that this is incorrect on both counts. As I've mentioned a million times before, the Church, both Catholic and Protestant, used the Scriptures to condemn Copernicus and Galileo. They read the Book, and found verses that contradicted those scientists' findings.

As for not reading Scriptures being no longer a problem, sadly, from my experience, a great number of Christians never pick up a Bible until Sunday morning, close it after services, put it back on its shelf at home, and there it stays until the next Sunday. I view this as a problem because, if they actually read what Jesus had to say in the Gospels, and what the Apostles had to say in the Epistles, I believe that our country would be a much different, and better, place.

Why then a need for a church-resistance group?

Freemasonry is not "church-resistant". It was founded by Christians, and one of the Ancient Charges is that "Masons shall regularly attend Holy Church". Masonry only resists tyranny and oppression masquerading as religion.

Speculative fraternity? What does that mean?

When a man receives the Second Degree of Masonry, he learns through the historical lecture that the organization he is joining is a "speculative fraternity founded upon an operative art". The "operative art" is, of course, stonemasonry, to which the medieval masonic guilds subscribed. Over time, it became a "speculative", i.e., philosophical, fraternal order.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
But the cross is not "another tool in the toolkit". That was my point about the cross not being a Masonic symbol, per se: it has no reference to the craft of stonemasonry as a trade.

Sounds like there's more to it than a guild-craft:

"Our Masonic Creed: One God, Father of all; the Holy Bible, the great light of Masonry; immortality of the soul; character determines destiny; that love of man is next to love of God, man's first duty; communion of man with God through prayer is helpful; that we should practice charity and benevolence, protect chastity, respect ties of blood and friendship, adopt the principles and revere the ordinances of religion, assist the feeble, guide the blind, raise up the downtrodden, shelter orphans, support the government, guard the altar, inculcate morality, promote learning, love man, fear God and implore his mercy, and hope for happiness."
www.srmason-sj.org...

Personally I'd be pround of such a creed. Why the dodge?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

How about enlightment? wisdom? eternity? salvation? truth? right vs. wrong? Pick one or all, where we begin isn't that important. The non-specific talk is forest of confusion. Is that what Masonry embodies? Or do they just treat inquirers that way?

I don't understand your confusion here; different symbols, by their very definition, symbolize different things. To make it even more complex, even the same symbol can symbolize different things to different people. There are no easy answers, and this is what makes the subject of symbolism capable of giving way to profound study. One certainly does not have to be a Mason to study symbolism; Jung did an excellent job without being an initiate. I think that here, you are looking for black-and-white answers, when in fact, no black-and-white answers exist.

Forest. I think that answers my question.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

So is the "G" is used to lay bricks, spread mortar, or measure a wall?

Since "G" denotes "Geometry", yes, geometry is certainly used to lay bricks and measure walls.

Looks like a brother is disagreeing on something that "Everyone is able to agree that the letter *represents* Him".

"Let me take the Letter "G" as an example. In one of our lectures, we pay respects to the letter in the East. A literal consideration would be that we are respecting the letter, or the physical object mounted on the wall. This, of course, is nonsense. The seventh letter of the English alphabet is not deserving of our particular notice, as a letter.
However, a *symbolic* consideration (and the one that actually describes what happens in the Masonry that exists in the real world) is that we are paying respect to what that letter *represents* - Our Divine Creator. This respect, we pay *through* the symbol. Everyone is able to agree that the letter *represents* Him, even (particularly?) when we do not agree on what He looks like, what Name He is best known by, or how best to worship Him. "
www.mastermason.com...

So is Geometry god? Again confusion, please clarify.

Also:
"An illustration of this would be that it would make no difference in what we teach if the letter "G" was replaced with "A" for Architect, "D" for Deity (as done in some jurisdictions), or (as is most common outside the USA) there were no letter within the Square and Compass at all, and we simply symbolized our devotion to The Most High by the representation of His Holy Word atop the altar. The lesson would not change. However, our law is very clear. The letter "G" cannot be replaced with an "A", nor with a "D", an "H", a "J" nor a "K". It cannot be removed. It cannot be lower case."
www.mastermason.com...

Originally posted by Masonic Light

The problem with the dark ages is the lack of reading the Book. This no longer is a problem.

I would argue that this is incorrect on both counts. As I've mentioned a million times before, the Church, both Catholic and Protestant, used the Scriptures to condemn Copernicus and Galileo. They read the Book, and found verses that contradicted those scientists' findings.

I never said all heads of all churches are inerrant. If the general public had picked up the Book on their own, they should see and know what's there and what their leaders were doing.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
As for not reading Scriptures being no longer a problem, sadly, from my experience, a great number of Christians never pick up a Bible until Sunday morning, close it after services, put it back on its shelf at home, and there it stays until the next Sunday. I view this as a problem because, if they actually read what Jesus had to say in the Gospels, and what the Apostles had to say in the Epistles, I believe that our country would be a much different, and better, place.

On this we absolutely agree.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Freemasonry is not "church-resistant". It was founded by Christians, and one of the Ancient Charges is that "Masons shall regularly attend Holy Church". Masonry only resists tyranny and oppression masquerading as religion.

For those Bible-following Christians within the organization, where is it written that secrets should be kept, that married men do well to organizationally fraternize without their wifes (and vice-versa), family members should be pressured into joining sponsored groups of Masonry, and that there is no black-and-white (right vs. wrong, good vs. evil)? These are some questions that I current have unresolved so any clarity would be appreciated.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Speculative fraternity? What does that mean?

When a man receives the Second Degree of Masonry, he learns through the historical lecture that the organization he is joining is a "speculative fraternity founded upon an operative art". The "operative art" is, of course, stonemasonry, to which the medieval masonic guilds subscribed. Over time, it became a "speculative", i.e., philosophical, fraternal order.

Thanks for the definition.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

I have offended at least one person (that I know of) on the Masonic threads so there are a few parting words I'd like to give before I go.

First, I'm sorry if I had hurt anyone in any way, it was not intentional. I do challenge things that don't seem right until they do seem right. I find those things withstanding inquiry to have strength. Perhaps I'd "gone too far" though don't see how, and have many questions outstanding still. Nevertheless, it'd be the right thing to do for me to take my leave.

Second, I appreciate the U2U notifying me of this. I feel it's important to point out if someone committed an offence so that they can ask for forgiveness and prevent future occurrences. Please forgive any attacks taken as personal.

Masonic Light - all the education you've given me is greatly appreciated. Though we're often at polar views, I hope you've found the discussions even half as valuable as I have. Your williness to share information speaks a lot not only of your mind, but of your heart (which I think is more important).

Trinityman - I do appreciate how respectable you've been and patient with those challenging the thoughts behind the organization.

Since I'm unwelcomed to participate, most likely I'll not be reading further threads relating to Masonry. I am fairly active in the "Conspiracies in Religion" section if anyone would like to talk further or have a discussion. Finally, I'm able to be reached by U2U for any personal discussions which I enjoy as well.

Let's all go in peace, as friends, and with God's love.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


Sounds like there's more to it than a guild-craft:

"Our Masonic Creed:" ...Personally I'd be pround of such a creed. Why the dodge?

When did I dodge anything about a creed? I don't remember talking about creeds, I thought we were discussing symbols. Creeds are an entirely different subject. I will state, however, my belief, based upon historical research of the Craft, that the Supreme Council's creed was held as beliefs by the medieval guild, although these beliefs were not then formally stated as a creed.

Looks like a brother is disagreeing on something that "Everyone is able to agree that the letter *represents* Him".

"Let me take the Letter "G" as an example. In one of our lectures, we pay respects to the letter in the East. A literal consideration would be that we are respecting the letter, or the physical object mounted on the wall. This, of course, is nonsense. The seventh letter of the English alphabet is not deserving of our particular notice, as a letter.
However, a *symbolic* consideration (and the one that actually describes what happens in the Masonry that exists in the real world) is that we are paying respect to what that letter *represents* - Our Divine Creator. This respect, we pay *through* the symbol. Everyone is able to agree that the letter *represents* Him, even (particularly?) when we do not agree on what He looks like, what Name He is best known by, or how best to worship Him. "

So is Geometry god? Again confusion, please clarify.

Gene may write and believe whatever he wants: it doesn't change the fact that the ritual of Freemasonry teaches that "G" denotes "Geometry". By the way, Brother Goldman is not alone in his belief that "G" represents God. Pike, Mackey, Case, and many others believed the same thing. But this is only in response to the more modern charge that the Letter G also represents the "Grand Geometrician of the Universe". Cleary, there is a difference between geometry and a Geometrician.

For those Bible-following Christians within the organization, where is it written that secrets should be kept, that married men do well to organizationally fraternize without their wifes (and vice-versa), family members should be pressured into joining sponsored groups of Masonry, and that there is no black-and-white (right vs. wrong, good vs. evil)? These are some questions that I current have unresolved so any clarity would be appreciated.

1. Everybody keeps secrets, whether it's their credit card number or AOL password. It has been explained, ad nauseum, what Masonic secrets consist of, why they were instituted, and the historical traditions they encompass.

2. There is absolutely nothing wrong with men fraternizing among themselves, or ladies doing the same.

3. I've never heard of any cases where any family member has been pressured to join anything, at least from any credible source (a/k/a, excluding Necros).

4. My "black and white" comment concerned the evolution of the science of symbolism, not Morality, which all Masons agree is absolute, not relative.

Originally posted by saint4God

Since I'm unwelcomed to participate, most likely I'll not be reading further threads relating to Masonry.

Saint, don't go, my man. You are one of the precious few here that brings a level of sanity to Masonic criticism.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Trinityman
S4G

My assumption (correctly as it turned out) was that ML would reply as part of the ongoing discussion between you. My interjection was purely (an attempt at) humor. I'm sorry if it upset you.

Not at all Trinityman, I've appreciated the courtesy and politeness you've extended to all the people here on ATS, myself included. I tend to "dig in" to these topics and don't mean my candidness in an aggressively offensive or malicious manner. I apologize if I took humor seriously. Sometimes it's hard to discern when the conversation is being "stepped up".

[edit on 1-11-2005 by saint4God]

No apology required, and thanks for the kind words. I thoroughly enjoy your posts and feel you have a great deal to contribute.

But it seems you may be leaving? Thats a big shame. Your comments are well thought out and objective and you are true to your forum name. As a Christian I appreciate your efforts to witness for Christ, and even if my personal view is that you are pointing your guns in the wrong direction, no doubt the Lord has a very good reason for that.

Stay a while longer, my friend. And brother

You say that there is only one symbol for Christians. Which symbol would that be? The cross? Which version of the cross? What about the different versions in Church history.

What about the Icthus?

Early Christians also used the deer as their symbol especially before Christianity was accepted. The Icthus was as well...

In fact Christianity used to be its own secret society....

The moderators will lock this forum! They do not want us to talk casually. Please remember this ia a conspiracy site, not a lodge!

So Mote It Be

They want talk, but whenever we (Masons) have something positive to say about the Masons they (ATS) seem to shut us down. They tell us this is a "Not a glad-handing to a MASON's board!" Then why are they so scared? If they only could have the love I have been given to me (By the Masons) they would probably think different.

I will probably be be banned from further post's after this. I just want people to accept each other for their choices in life!!! Who Know's what God has chosen for each of us and I know he does not want predudice!

[edit on 9-11-2005 by beermudatriangle]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but it seemed like the best fit.

What say you to this?

Interesting, no?

Originally posted by Atomix
Im a threadkiller aren't I?

You big ole meany...We were about to begin feeling noble and proud of finding hidden truth and embracing the secrets