China now has 837.9 Bil of forex reserve

"Total value of import and export in 2004 reached 1,154.7 billion US dollars, up 35.7 percent over the previous year. The value of export was 593.4 billion US dollars, up 35.4 percent, and the value of import was 561.4 billion US dollars, up 36.0 percent. As a result, China had a trade surplus of 32 billion US dollars, or 6.5 billion US dollars more than in 2003. The foreign direct investment actually utilized were 60.6 billion US dollars, up 13.3 percent. By the end of 2004, China’s foreign exchange reserves reached 609.9 billion US dollars, or 206.7 billion more than that by the end of the previous year."

www.chinability.com...


hongkong.usconsulate.gov...


Export is really important to China's economy growth indeed, but the import is also huge. In another word why don't we do business the way just like business and both benefit from it since no other country like china can provide such huge import as well as export. This is what makes it different and this is how people benefit from it. For me any other argue based on political biase and culture difference is false.

out


mod edit: censor circumvention

[edit on 22-11-2005 by sanctum]

another thing i need to point out is Han people takes 91.96% of Chinese population and other minority like Manchurian (who rules China under last century)and other just has 8.04%, Han people is also the origin of Majority East Asian countries such as Japan and Korean. So the way China doing thing in the last century is not suitable for westerns to consider as any example to conclude how will china act nowadays.

This nation is used to be the most open and thechnology advanced race on the world and nothing will stop it from recoverying sooner or later.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Next, utilizing nukes if we ever attempted to reclaim Taiwan forcefully would lead to the deaths of millions of American lives regardless.

And probably a billion Chinese lives too. Again, it would be up to China. Is having 10,000 nuclear warheads lland in your nation worth it to get Taiwan?

Frankly, if so, then you have a sick nation that should be purged from this earth.

Finally, if America does it GRADUALLY over 2 decades then we'll have ample warning and switch to other nations to trade with over and equally gradual time frame thus neutering the effect. After all our trade with Japan and the EU and other Asian countries is growing at a veeeerrrrrry fast rate.

Again, you act as if you can just switch to them. The US is Japans greatest ally. How many nations in Europe would pick China over the US? Very, very few, if any at all.

South Korea? Again, they are at the mercy of the US to protect them from the north.

Frankly, China can not just gradually switch over, because all those nations you mentioned would be switching from you too.

Next, just as I may have no facts to back up an conversion to a more service based economy, you have equally little or no facts to back up your case. Bush has just visited China and agreed to various agreements to BOOST economic trade and improve bilateral relations.

Actually, there are many facts that back up the US view of China as an emerging enemy. Just take a look under the current events forum. My ideas of an economic war, I freely admit that, but they are ideas which I know for fact have been considered by the US.

I'm using a different computer ATM and cannot tell if you've edited your posts or not. As for the post I was looking for it was the Taiwan one and I couldn't find it.

What ever buddy. I can tell you the only editing I have done was to fix quotes and a few spelling mistakes I caught. If you don't know, I am not one to be shy about my views. If I said something, I meant it, and would not go back and change it. That isn't my style.

Those 2 Generals have no chance in hell of ever getting active commands again as far as we are concerned, but remeber they spoke out of their private opinions not be considered as being part of our foreign policy.

Well, I must say that is good to hear. The last thing we need is a bunch of suicidal nuclear war wanting psychopaths.

However, if this is their private opinion, it brings up a point that may be better discussed in another thread, and that is that without nuclear weapons China knows it can not handle the US military in a conventional war.

Just because they are allies doesn't mean that they will kowtow to everything America wants them to do, France is trying its best to sell us weapons they don't really care about what Americans think, they built up their own nuclear program without American assistance.

S. Korea may be worried about the North but they also want to unify with the north and don't particulary worry about them as much as they used to, they know that N. Korea would have to ask our permission first before having said venture and we would never give the ok ever again.

And finally is there a full fledged economist who can give his informed opinion on the matter whose not a conspiracy theorist?

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Chinas growing energy need alone is going to be interesting to watch. China's demand for oil in China is growing at a blistering rate, about 30% to 40% a year.

Only growing at around 6% this year and has been slowing down since last year.

Stellar

Some of the links i have in my archive on the topic of Russian, China, India alliance....

Will Brazil, Russia, India, China Be Superpower?

Economic might and military power therefore go hand in hand, and a tilting of the balance will, sooner or later, lead to a shift in the relative influence of nations. Seen in that light, you will be interested in a new study by a team of economists and planners at Goldman Sachs, called "Dreaming with BRICs: The Path to 2050." The BRICs — a new acronym in world affairs jargon — refers to Brazil, Russia, India, and China. They are large in territory and resources, they are populous, and, says the Goldman Sachs team, they are on their way up economically.


SCO wants date for US withdrawal from Central Asia

The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), an alliance grouping Russia, China and central Asian countries on Tuesday called for the US-led anti-terrorist coalition in Afghanistan to set a time frame for withdrawing its forces from member states.

Both Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan host US bases whose troops are involved in the Afghanistan operation.

The SCO also added Pakistan, Iran and India as observer nations.


India plans to fight terror along with China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan – the Shanghai body's terror fight

Singh said, "India observed the growth of the organization with great interest". In this connection, he expressed his satisfaction that "the members of this organization have quickly reacted to India's statement (on giving it observer's status)".

"We are also interested in helping develop closer cooperation within the organization," he said.

Russia and Asian states welcome USA's sworn enemy, Iran

Islam Karimov, the President of Uzbekistan, pointed out the destructive role of the USA in the Asian region. According to Karimov, the events, which have recently occurred in Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, unveiled only certain vestiges of the large-scale strategic plan, which the USA was gradually executing in the region. "The final goal of the plan is to change the political and economic correlation of forces in the USA's favor and to take the dominating position in the Central Asian region," the Uzbek president said.

Members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization agreed to introduce strict regulation of terms for foreign army bases to stay on the member-countries' territories. It particularly goes about US military bases in Kyrgyzstan and
Tajikistan.

China, Russia back India for Security Council seat

"The Ministers expressed shared confidence that their meeting in Vladivostok would provide a new impetus to the trilateral dialogue in all spheres of mutual interest," it said. Even though the trilateral dialogue is considered informal, the Vladivostok meeting effectively institutionalised it as an integral part of their foreign policy and a key element of global politics.

The Ministers "confirmed that strengthening of partnership in the trilateral format met the long-term national interests of India, Russia and China," the communiqué said. "They were convinced that development of mutually beneficial cooperation between the three countries in practical terms would make a considerable contribution to the strengthening of peace and stability not only in Asia but also globally."

China & India: Can They Do Better Together?

In this era of globalization, the elephant and the dragon are finally running fast, together. There is a sense of urgency for the two ancient peoples to catch up with the developed world. True, there is a high degree of rivalry between them, but all that this competition will produce in the end is a creative and productive partnership.

Mutual benefits are plenty. India has built up a world-class information technology (IT) army while China has created a fast-expanding manufacturing force. Their strengths are complementary in numerous ways, all they have to do is team up in a more productive fashion.

China, Russia warn of world domination

MOSCOW — Russia and China warned other nations Friday against attempts to dominate global affairs and interfere in the domestic issues of sovereign nations in what appeared to be a veiled expression of their irritation with U.S. policy.

China's president, Hu Jintao joins Vladimir Putin at the Kremlin to announce their agreement.
AP

Presidents Vladimir Putin and Hu Jintao signed a joint declaration after two days of talks calling for a stronger United Nations role in global affairs and opposing attempts "to impose models of social and political development from outside."

The two leaders also urged other states to renounce "striving for monopoly and domination in international affairs and attempts to divide nations into leaders and those being led."

While the declaration did not identify any specific country, it echoed similar veiled hints by Moscow and Beijing about U.S. policy in global affairs.

India, China and Russia to create new alliance to challenge USA's supremacy

Mr. Karagonov also pointed out considerable cultural differences between the three countries, as well as intense relations between China and India, RIA Novosti reports.

It was reported on Monday, however, that India and China concluded a strategic partnership agreement. Details of the new document were not exposed, although it is known that the parties came to agreement on the issues of the long-standing border dispute, bilateral trade relations and the economic cooperation. Indian and Chinese prime ministers stated that the document would boost diplomatic and economic links between China and India and help the two states resist "global threats."

For the time being it is not known if Russia is going to have at least something to do with the "strategic partnership" of India and China. It is not ruled out, though, that Beijing and Delhi decided to do without Moscow's participation.

Sino-Russian relations blossom

The signing of the 2001 Treaty for Good Neighbourliness, Friendship and Co-operation set in legal stone the sincere hopes of the two peoples for "eternal friendship and never enmity," marking a new phase in the maturity and stability of Sino-Russian relations.

In addition, demarcation of the 4,300-kilometre border was recognized in law, making it a link for "peace, friendship, co-operation and development." This also removed uncertainties that had surrounded political ties and provided security guarantees for future generations and a foundation for deeper growth of bilateral ties.

This year's joint communique signals that relations have entered their best-ever phase. These joint military exercises are the result of the two countries reaching an important stage in relations and a manifestation of the pragmatism demonstrated by both sides.

Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia and Tajikistan gather resources together to fight terrorism

he Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), a Moscow-led security grouping in the former Soviet Union, has prepared a draft protocol calling for the group to provide military equipment to member-states in emergency situations, the organization's press service said Aug. 2. The situations covered by the protocol include the plotting and execution of international terrorist attacks and external threats to the security, sovereignty or territorial integrity of any CSTO members. Aid will be provided at the request of member-states, which are Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia and Tajikistan. The governments of these countries now must approve the protocol.

This page was constructed by someone who has researched it well and made up his mind Brazil - Russia - India - China

Stellar

On growing Chinese prosperity....

China builds malls on gigantic scale

China's highway to economic growth

China plans to build 10 more nuclear reactors

Plug pulled on 32 power projects

China maintains momentum in attracting foreign funds

The Big Mac Index:Food for thought

Well this should soften the tone of the discussion i think?

Stellar

Originally posted by American Mad Man
It's really not a question, it's supply and demand. If you "dump" a trillion dollars worth of anything on a market, the sale value will go down. It's basic supply and demand.

Its 700billion.

I am not saying china should dump it all at one place. move some to different places in the world and dump it at once.

What is 700billion to us if the US economy is in recession?. But the true figure is not 700bilion dollars worth of US Treasury bonds but its all chinas forigen reserves. So it would be a high figure but not the whole 700billion is in US Treasury bonds

Actually, there are more parallels to Japan then you may think. I would point out the number of bad loans as one such example.

Dont dodge the question answer it. why would it benifit us?

Again, I would point to India as one such nation with a very large population that the US would rather give it's business to in the long run.

India doesn't have the resources.

I also would like to point out that india is not a american ally. For the pass 50years america has been treating india like trash. I think indians are more confident and would like to develop indepently.

lets get a opinion from indians on this forum about the americans over russia.

Lets just see if they see china more as a threat than they see america. Maybe if china dropped pakistan or support indias stance on kashmir it will change indias opinion

Again, I dissagree. India, Brazil, Argentina, and a small group of African nations all could replace China.

And they would do a complete U-turn just to be with america?...lol arrogance .

And thus was the main reason they were there

That was they only reason stopping us. He was just a trigger. anyone could have done that

Like I said, if another nation were given our business, they would also have a huge incrrease in buying power.

China buys as much as it sells. a lot of asian nations will feel the pinch. In the coming years you will see chinese compaines investing more than american compaines. Out buying and out witting them

Yes, but most of that buying power is based on the west buying it's cheap goods. If the west were to do business with another nation, that other nation would take a huge part of Chinas buying power.

The west?

look at chinas five top export destinations.
US 21.1%, Hong Kong 17%, Japan 12.4%, South Korea 4.7%, Germany 4%. three asain countries.

Not even 40% of that figure is from cheap goods. But computers, and al that electric gear coming out of chians factories. Toys and such are good at employing workers but are bad at making profits

We don't. They do
But it is plain to see that China is Australias biggest threat (At least as far as nation states go).

They do. Name a report please

Sorry but i am australian as much as i am chinese.

American arrogance, telling us who are friends and enimies should be.

And yet South Korea depends on the US to protect them from NK. They are reliant on the US for survival. They are at our mercy.

No there not. The south korean army is more than capable of protecing south korea.

Or are those 30K something americans going to work a miricle?

I didn't mention them. However, the US does have a large military force in Australia.

Where are they stationed? never heard about this. where they located and how many of this large military force

Of course not. However, it is indicative of the level of political sway the US possesses in those nations.

Political sway....laugh. that died long ago when they stopped the nice big flow of aid

The problem isn't Americas, it is Chinas. What is China going to do - force the world to buy from China?

No one is forcing them(as you can see in your own country). they just like the chiense products because they are well made and are competivily priced.

That is the choice in many countries. have you ever seen a walmart sale when they release those low priced TVs?. Pigs to the slaughter.

No, they have already made their choice. They have ALL sided with the US.

No they haven't.

And how exactly does China have more money then the US?

It doesn't. It the future amount chinas buys through trade. Trade determinds relations

I have. They all seem to think the US is an infinitely better ally then China.

The indians do not have a choice just between two countries it can work independatly by itself or china and russia

It is clearly China, and is pretty much agreed on by everyone.

Everyone as in how.?.

I think you missed something alone the way.

India, China Hoping to 'Reshape the World Order' Together
www.washingtonpost.com...

India, China shake hands on strategic partnership
www.signonsandiego.com...

China's march on South Asia
www.asianresearch.org...

India, China to Form Strategic Partnership
abcnews.go.com...

These are not contridictory things. The UK was always among the worlds great naval powers, and yet has been the greatest ally of the US.

The UK needed the US during the cold wa to give protection that why they put up with america.

They also have the same interest as you.

Well, that is your opinion. I would argue that niether China nor India will be able to afford an arms race with the US - a nation with several times the economic size and a multi-trillion dollar R&D infrastructure lead.

You always think about the here and now. But you dont factor in other developments.

Its not a multi-trillion dollar lead. Not even close. The americans spend tons upon tons of money on R&D and india and china can get that technology in a few years with minial amount of money spends.

Taiwan can be defended without a single soldier... Simply agree to respond to an invasion with nuclear retaliation would negate the need for any actual military presence.

And the americans with sarcifice their lives for a small island with our any dipolmatic relations with?

Get a grip, most people that think like you do

Except that they do not, and in all likely hood will not, need to make that choice.

Didn't you read the above sernario?. Oil will win over any of your allies.

American diplomacy. Threaten unitl you get what you want or if that doesn't work attack them to get what you need

That is a hell of an assumption. It is just - if not MORE - likely that China will be driven into an economic correction in the next decade and will there for have less to spend.

A assumtion?

Thats a fact. America also could go into recession

In case you haven't noticed, the US military machine isn't really effected by distances.

Not the distance but other places the americans need to be


End Note

Why did countries become american allies in the cold war?.

Because america offered them this $$$$$. Money makes the world go round. and china now has the money to buy allies.

The allies america relied on in the past are now chinas friends because of money. France, Germany, Spain etc are chiense friends because of the growing trade.

The world is changing and america is not. Bulling other countries to see their own views will only cause hate towards america. THey will have their hands full in the middle east trying to keep their oil suply stable while china is making friends with central asia, africa and latin america(places where the americans have completely forgotten about)

AMM. Do you know chians close relations with African countries?. they started in the 50s with us helping to build railroads and such. Its caled soft-power and china has been using this stragery for ages now.

They have a fairly good oil supply in countries which are under chinese or russian influence. So now its about developing new relations. China slo has iran uder its belt where it buys oil from. Ship the oil to pakistan then to Xingjiang and to a oil refinery in chinas east coast

On fact that has completely eluded the discussion is russia. China and Russia now days are good firends. and china gets a fair amount of oil from them. These two countries alone with india will develop their region of the world and bring new converts with them

While i think the world will be a multi-polar world sooner rather than later it will not become that overnight and these allanices will have to do until then

[edit on 23-11-2005 by chinawhite]

Nice "heated" debate here


AMM, seems like your on your own without any buddies...

Actually there are lots of ASSUMPTIONS going on here. Assumptions that are either wrong or still highly improbable.

Examples:

China selling Dollars at cheap price - not going to happen. The purpose of the debt buying is to fuel more American consumption not as an economic weapon.

India as US ally - Economic partner, Sure. War buddy in the form of the UK? Highly unlikely. Right now, it is the US dept of defense that is very enthusiastic of an alliance. I follow Indian news and the opinions of leaders are mixed. They prefer to be independent and neutral in most situations.

In case US imposes a trade embargo on China, NOT all its allies will follow suit as AMM thinks. SK? - not likely. It has nothing against China and an embargo is not in its best interest. The EU? perhaps some members may follow suit such as Poland and Britain but certainly not all. Canada? Australia? - It depends, at the current posture of their respective administration, No.

The US buying from other countries by transfering manufacturing plant elsewhere such as Africa? - Of course they could do that. However there are problems and the transition is not as simple as you said. Investments made in China would be wasted. Transferring to other countries that has cheap labor without the required infrastructure is difficult. Instead of just building the plant, the US company must also build the roads, logistic centers and shipping handling ports. Assuming that they already exist, placing all US demand in that country will strain that countries capability too much that orders cannot be met. Prices in the US market will balloon and consumer spending will be reduced. The US market is very much a consumer driven market and drastic reduction in consumption will be hard to handle.

As for China, losing its top customer (along with the US allies that follow suit) will be a big blow to the economy. As all these was happening, non-US companies that stayed in China benefits from the trade without the extra hassle. China will not be "destroyed" economically (a very arrogant remark if i may add) as you, AMM claimed. Its growth will stop but the economy would not just collapse like that.


To be honest, all of the "extreme (arrogant)" posts here are fueled more by feeling of superiority of their respective sides rather than economic logic. The complex relation of the economic interdependecy of both countries are highly intertwined. US economy is driven by consumerism which is made possible with cheap goods and low interest rate (by China buying US debt). China in turn gains its income from exports to the US and sustains it by buying debt.


Lastly, You said:

"Frankly, if so, then you have a sick nation that should be purged from this earth."

Purged?

The same can be said of America since according to you " a billion chinese lives would be lost". Perhaps Americans are "sicker and should be purged" since you upped the ante to a "billion" from a million.

Lets avoid such wordings in discussions shall we?



[edit on 11/23/2005 by thaei]

Racism and prejudice isn't something new to Americans, last time I checked, "freedom" in America wasn't really that free. American superiority complex and their fear of losing superiority to say the truth can be compared to characteristics of a psycho.

China is developing its economy, CCP stated that to be powerful, a strong economy is essential, everything else is secondary. The group of old man and woman leading CCP sure is doing a good job right now, sustained high growth rate over the years, complete makeover of its first, secondary and tertiary industries, we have changed from a nation stricken with poverty, to a country wielding much political and economical influence in the world. China is currently no enemy to the US but neo-cons are the ones bringing US toward the anti-China side. Why? Because Americans are afraid of losing its superiority.

To destroy China with nuclear weapons would mean the death of the world through the aftermath of the detonations - nuclear winter. Tibet, a province of China is the only location on Earth that could survive a nuclear winter because its average land is more than 4000m above sea level making it above the clouds that would carry the dusts and debries from the detonations.

China does not mean harm to the US, China just wants to develope its economy and increase the standard of living of the Chinese people.

AMM, you are very self contradictory, read your posts.

one thing makes me wonder, when UNITED STATES and China both don't want to trigger war and it's to their best advantage that no war happened--American keeps its leader position in the world, China continues to maitain fast development and change their peoples' living standerd. Political reform maybe(peacfully convert to democracy country, maybe the name is still not democracy)...etc War means no good to neither of them, then why and who want to triger it?
People want to make fiction and movie title might be interested but politically who else? who will benefit from US-China war?

the true enemy is usually not the one you notice when war happens...

Originally posted by thecry
If there is going to be a new super power then I say give our business to India,let them become the next world super power. why I say this?

1.They are not a communist country like China.

True, they are the world's largest democracy (by population) and yet for some reason America is allied with Pakistan which happens to be a military dictatorship...

3.With India being a super power in the middle east hopefully it will draw attention away from the U.S and force terrorist groups to fight against India as the new enemy on the block

Terrorists have been attacking India for quite some time. But they're not the same brand of terrorists that hate America; they're terrorists that are trained and backed by Pakistan. Other than the Pakistani government India doesn't have very many enemies and would not become the "new enemy on the block" as you put it, because they don't have a belligerant and irresponsible international policy like America does.