Satan's/Iblis' conspiracy

Can there really be any doubt that Satan/Iblis has great power over the earth? Certainly that is the implication of the faithful of the world's two dominant theologies, Christianity and Islam.

Suppose they are right. Suppose there is a powerful adversary who has the ability to deceive men with the most cunning of deceptions.

Suppose also, that god allows this (at least for a time), as both the Bible and the Qu'ran imply.

What would be the greatest trick he could perform? Would it not be to fool as many as possible via ancient texts and 'personal experience', so that virtually all would be deceived? If that were the case, who would be left unaffected by such an act of deception?

hey spam,

good issue to bring up...but im kind of unsure as to where you are heading with this. could you explain a bit more of what you mean?

i know you arent a religious person but in your post it seems like you are playing "gods advocate" (lol) in a sense by implicating the "what if they are right and there is such an adversary"...is that what you are doing? or are you suggesting that the devil uses the bible as his tool of deception and that it isnt in fact divinly inspired at all? OR were you going somewhere else with your post entirely?

i havent had any sleep in 24 hours so forgive me if my cognitive abilities are a bit slow at the moment. college cramming for midterm....you know how that is lol.

either way good topic.....even if we are at opposit sides of the fence

Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

Originally posted by spamandham
What would be the greatest trick he could perform? Would it not be to fool as many as possible via ancient texts and 'personal experience', so that virtually all would be deceived? If that were the case, who would be left unaffected by such an act of deception?

Yes, it would be ironic if they were the very enemy they were warned against. I believe ancient texts to be part of an agenda. Maybe they have genuine origins, maybe they dont. What we do know for sure is that they are being abused. Assuming it is true that Satan wants to be God Almighty, and usurp his position, creating religions would be the perfect way to do that. He sits at the top, he is the one being worshipped by all those poor misled sheep.

As the last post mentions, Satan wanted to be God........So his greatest trick would be to subvert ancient texts, influence the creation of a religion, near the begining, ( say the point at which a certain sect became the official religion of a powerful empire) have his disciples substitute doctrine and rituals, infiltrate and quietly 'become' the actual being that is worshiped as God.

Just a thought.....

the cathars beleived that the material world is evil -and therfore must have been created by something evil.
would this not make sense - create a world and fill it with fear. trap lots of souls and have them live their lives worshipping the creator, of face the wrath of god.
most wars are because of religion - if satan created the world - he would be pretty proud of himself. its hell !

Good sir, to answer your question. The (KJV) Bible mentions an elite band of 144,000 will not be deceived. Think of these people like walking supermen, because no weapon will be able to form against them. They will not be killed, but be as if they were ghosts upon the earth. They are sealed/marked in their forehead from God almighty. Him and his army of angels will be fighting for them, and all the world will see that their God fights for them and no weapon will prosper. Head shots will miss, bows and bayonets will fly and swing to no prevail It is an all out war people... Sharks with freakin' laser beams will not even be able to stop them.

What are you saying they will be able to dodge bullets?

No, I am saying when the time comes they will not have to.

They are the Gideon band; the people; the remnant of God who keep the commandments and share the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the spirit of prophecy.

You also asked what would be satan/iblis greatest trick?

Easy the (KJV) Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan's counterfeit: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

and (KJV) Isaiah 14:14 tells of Satan's ultimate counterfeit: "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

That satan... He has been killin' people with kindness since... well the fall of man. He know his time is short. He knows how the story ends, all he is doing is taking as many as he can with him. I hope that helps. ...That is if you believe all that Bible stuff.

[edit on 4-10-2005 by GameSetMatch]

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
Sharks with freakin' laser beams will not even be able to stop them.

What about sea bass with bad temperments?

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
You also asked what would be satan/iblis greatest trick?

Easy the (KJV) Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan's counterfeit: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Suppose the Bible and Qu'ran are part of the mass deception of the adversary. If that were the case, the usage of scripture would actually fall right in line with this great deception.

If Satan/Iblis is as cunning and powerful as the world's religions make him to be, then you must assume he has pulled out all the stops. How can you know these ancient texts are not part of his trickery?

After all, does it really make any sense that he cooperates with the predictions of these ancient texts if they are actually true? If he truly wanted to oppose god, and these ancient texts were from god, the smartest thing for Satan to do would simply be to leave earth alone so that the predictions of god would be false.

The fruit of Christianity and Islam is war, death, persecution, oppression of women and minorities, and mass thought control and suppression of freedom. Are these not exactly what the adversary supposedly wants?

What better way to achieve his objectives than to convince the world that these writings are from god, and then to reaffirm them with visions and 'personal experience'?

Originally posted by spamandham
What about sea bass with bad temperments?

lol you got me there

Originally posted by spamandham
If Satan/Iblis is as cunning and powerful as the world's religions make him to be, then you must assume he has pulled out all the stops. How can you know these ancient texts are not part of his trickery?

After all, does it really make any sense that he cooperates with the predictions of these ancient texts if they are actually true? If he truly wanted to oppose god, and these ancient texts were from god, the smartest thing for satan to do would simply be to leave earth alone so that the predictions of god would be false.

A true follower of Christ has faith that the original text of the Bible is the correct translation of the word of God. (KJV)

From my understanding Satan and the fallen angels are bound to this earth and he longs to be like the most high, he wants to be worshiped. He is the father of all lies. His deception is all around you. Look at the churches, look at societies.

Originally posted by spamandham
The fruit of Christianity and Islam is war, death, persecution, oppression of women and minorities, and mass thought control and suppression of freedom.

Christianity is not any of what you have stated. Do not be fooled by this world or its many apostate churches. Even if one states he is a Christian and demands the death of another is not a Christian. A Christian is pro life always regardless of the situation. Death, destruction is not Christ like.

Think of Good as the color white in its purest form. Bad as the color black which satan owns. If you mix white and black together you get what? You get grey that is also satans. Because mixing of colors/camps can not be. Grey is the color of deception.

Originally posted by spamandham
Are these not exactly what the adversary supposedly wants?

Bingo! He already has you thinking that Christianity is war, death, persecution, oppression of women and minorities, and mass thought control and suppression of freedom.

Originally posted by spamandham
What better way to achieve his objectives than to convince the world that these writings are from god, and then to reaffirm them with visions and 'personal experience'?

Christians from my understanding believe that the Bible (KJV) is the correct translation of the word of God. satan already has most of the world fooled with many many religions and apostate churches. Many different versions of the Bible... You ever get that feeling that all religions seem to have a connection; The same thing just in many different forms...

spam,

hey, again very good thread topic you bring up here.
except the one thing i would point out is that the Christians idea of satan is that he cannot know the future...only God can. so the prophesies made in the book that have come true.....(as far as christians are concerned i know all dont believe they have,) but again from a christians persective, the prophesies within the bible that in their opinon have come true are beyond satans capabilites. only God knows the future. Satan knows the past and can use biblical scripture to his advantage(manipulation of scriptural meanings etc...) and he does possess a certian amount of reasoning that yes in some instances can make his deductive logic of future events more concise than that of human beings but all in all he does not possess the ability to know the future. so from a christians perspective i would say that is one way we would counter your hypothesis of the bibles origins really being derived from the great adversary. but again, much respect spam for introducing this topic.


Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

We live in a galaxy, that's right 'one' there are millions of other galaxy's including the one that is heading straight for ours in 100 billion years.

If Satan is so powerful, why wouldn't he be screwing with other life forms in other galaxy's??

You know, if your on a power trip to try and make everybody do bad things, why just work on one planet in one galaxy when you can work over millions??

yeah, he's a real bad asz.

I really do believe more so then before, that satan is just a term used for evil spirit or the dark side of ourselves.

I recall bout time posting something about an indian chief talking to a young man about the fight within us all, the dark vs the light/good/bad..

Satan was created by man, and I think that perhaps it's very plausible that those who wrote about 'satan' were philosopher's. Many times these writer's didn't speak in literal terms.

Take plato for example, he used many analogies like in the allegory of the caves. He didn't really mean people lived in caves, but he was making an analogy about those who have only experienced one dimension can't possibly know about other existing dimensions. You can use this analogy and apply it to politics... how can one know about the other sides if they've only participated in one side? and we use the term partisanship to describe that.

so satan was created to descibe the dark side of ourselves. That dark side could be our primitive instincts, look what happen in n.o when people were starving, they became wild and out of control. not all but some.

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
A true follower of Christ has faith that the original text of the Bible is the correct translation of the word of God. (KJV)

The question isn't about faith, but about possibilities and knowledge. How can we know that these texts are not part of an immense deception, particularly when you consider that the behavior of Satan is exactly the opposite of what makes sense if the texts were true?

He's playing his role to a tee. If he's so smart, powerful, and cunning, the right thing to do would simply be to go away. His presence confirms the texts for those that believe, and for those that don't believe, he's already won.

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
He is the father of all lies. His deception is all around you.

As the father of all lies, why is he not as clever as me in figuring out how to deceive? Sure he might get a good haul with his current deceptions, but for the moment assume the texts are true. If he simply quit influencing man, peace would reign (except for natural disaster I suppose). People would be forced to say, "all this sin stuff in the Bible is obviously BS". He would end up with believers and nonbelievers alike simply by refusing to play his role in the divine comedy.

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
Christianity is not any of what you have stated. Do not be fooled by this world or its many apostate churches. Even if one states he is a Christian and demands the death of another is not a Christian. A Christian is pro life always regardless of the situation. Death, destruction is not Christ like.

Yet the US/UK find ourselves in Iraq. Would we be there if the US were not predominantly Christian and the middle East were not predominantly Muslim? Considering the 2000/1400 years history of violence directly relatd to these faiths, the response "oh they aren't True Christians/Muslims™" rings pretty hollow. There is no earthly authority on what defines a True Christian/Muslim™ (ps, happy Ramadan!)

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
Bingo! He already has you thinking that Christianity is war, death, persecution, oppression of women and minorities, and mass thought control and suppression of freedom.

True (assuming he were real). But I'm the vast minority. Is he after a few, or most? If he just wants a few, well, i guess he's got me, but what if he wants everyone? How would he behave then?

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
Christians from my understanding believe that the Bible (KJV) is the correct translation of the word of God.

What you believe and what is true need not be the same. What if you are wrong? What if his intent is to "fool the very elect"? Perhaps his prize is the very people who are the elect, just as the Bible says. Would that be an awesome deception or what?

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
hey, again very good thread topic you bring up here.

Thanks DG! I'm a little disappointed it got moved to BTS though. It seemd like a real conspiracy to me, but ... !

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
except the one thing i would point out is that the Christians idea of satan is that he cannot know the future...

Yes and no. He can't know the future like god does, but he supposedly is the world's greatest expert on the Bible and its prophecies. Supposedly, he could quote you scripture backward and forward with complete context and no translational confusion. He's supposedly really really smart and informed.

Ok, I'm just a stupid talking ape, and I can figure out that to prevent the judgement simply requires that Satan be a no-show. Without his willfull cooperation, the judgment would never arrive. What's his motivation?

[edit on 4-10-2005 by spamandham]

hey spam,your characterization of satan is correct. he doesnt know the future but he does the know the bible backwards and forwards.
i guess what i was saying is that since he cant know the future he couldnt have authored the bible because of the prophesies that it contains that have come true. (or as i said ...christians and some other groups as well have thought to have come true.)

now as to your observation of the end times event and the role satan plays in it...now im not going to be 20 years old until the 15th of october so i dont know everything yet j/k but i think the question you ask is a good one...one that i have pondered as well. because..
but i will try the best to explain how i look at it. i didnt get this from a pastor or anything just through my own ponderings.

when satan fell (in the judeo-christian theology) it was out of not just jealousy but the fact that he wanted and felt he could be a god. so in a sense while satan has to in fact listen to God he feels on some level that he is really equal to God and its really a simple case of being held down by "the man". if you have seen any jack black films he uses that phrase alot

for example: i hate that north korean dicator. he's psycho and he does alot of terrible things to his people. now this man demands alot of respect from his people. now if i met him would i give him a piece of my mind? yea. but if he stuck a nuke in my general direction id probably say "ok screw you...i still hate you but ill leave" lol.
naturally i wouldnt take this man on by myself, but if i assembled a big enough army would i try?....sure
ok that analogy might be a bit confusing so let me show how this relates...
satan tries to get into Gods face every once and a while and God in a sense "points a nuke in his face" and tells him to leave. so satan scrurries away pissed off everytime, because he feels he is entitled to the same amount of power as God is..if not more. so when the end comes....as revelations says he assembles a great army and goes against christ. Christ is one man..yea yea, hes got "nukes" but if satan comes with this huge army maybe his pride thinks that he has a chance.

there could however be a different side....

satan knows his fate...but look where he is...in hell. no power, yea he can mess with us sometimes but i mean after an ETERNITY of doing that i mean that ends up being child's play. so God writes in this special book to humans that when the end comes he is gonna come and crush satan once and for all. satan knows the power of God , but he has 3 options
A. remain in hell.....like he has been...getting nowhere.
B. Repent...which wont happen until hell freezes over
C. Say "fine ill play your little game, ill come back and you can crush me, but im gonna take as many people down with me as possible."

and it is my understanding that he chose C. partly because of pride, partly because God made a set of rules and he feels like it was unfair to him because he was supposed to be the favorite so he doesnt care if he goes down in the end.

its sort of like what my dad told me about christianity (and im not comparing him to satan, i love him dearly) i asked him why he wasnt a christian anymore and what would happen if he got to the end and the world wasnt all about science, and the Christian idea of God was real and he said " i dont care what happens to me, if thats the way God's game is.... im not playing." Now even though my dad thinks the religious values i have been brought up with (and by the way my parents have been married for 23 years so he had a hand in it) are good, he just doesnt believe in God the same way. he looks at it like a force of nature. not an entity, just the grand spark of science. he used to be a christian but his mom died from lukeimia when he was 18 and my little sister died while my mom was giving birth to her when i was 3 so i think those things pretty much did it for him. the christian idea of God didnt compute to him anymore, and the concept of hell just seemed ridiculous. so i have been raised to learn about the scientific world by my father and the religous world by my mother. and i respect them both.
but the reason why i mentioned those things about my dad is because i didnt want people to think i was comparing my father to satan, just symbolisim in what he said.

i dont want to romantisize satan at all but he is standing on a principle. that being that he is the ultimate manifestation of desires of the flesh. he wants what he wants...and he wont back down even if he has to spend eternity bound up in hell for it. revenge is his motivator. why do woman shoot their husband after they found out they have been cheated on even though they know they are going to be punished for it? no some may do this in the heat passion but there are others who plot and seek out revenge just so the person can feel what they feel.
satans idea of standing up to God because he feels he has been wronged may sound comendable until you look at the things his principles represent.

so thats just my opinon on the situation spam. i hope it was clear enough to understand. i did my best.

kind regards,
digitalgrl





[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

Originally posted by spamandham
The question isn't about faith, but about possibilities and knowledge. How can we know that these texts are not part of an immense deception, particularly when you consider that the behavior of Satan is exactly the opposite of what makes sense if the texts were true?

I see your point I do not know how to answer this with out a source of truth. If there is no source of truth then the whole entire world is already doomed. The Christians believe the (KJV) Bible is their source. From my understanding satan needs permission to do anything. He doesn't have permission to destroy the original text. He has had the Bible written and re-written into many false books...

I guess my point is there has to be some truth in the world for satan to exist. Take electricity you need a form of resistance. I hope that makes sense...

Originally posted by spamandham
He's playing his role to a tee. If he's so smart, powerful, and cunning, the right thing to do would simply be to go away. His presence confirms the texts for those that believe, and for those that don't believe, he's already won.

Yeah, I think that is a valid point. I do not think you or I have been personally attacked by satan. In fact I think that term "Oh satan has been attacking me" has been over used and misconstrued.

Originally posted by spamandham
As the father of all lies, why is he not as clever as me in figuring out how to deceive? Sure he might get a good haul with his current deceptions, but for the moment assume the texts are true. If he simply quit influencing man, peace would reign (except for natural disaster I suppose). People would be forced to say, "all this sin stuff in the Bible is obviously BS". He would end up with believers and nonbelievers alike simply by refusing to play his role in the divine comedy.

Yeah, I would think a time like that could happen.

Originally posted by spamandham
Yet the US/UK find ourselves in Iraq. Would we be there if the US were not predominantly Christian and the middle East were not predominantly Muslim? Considering the 2000/1400 years history of violence directly relatd to these faiths, the response "oh they aren't True Christians/Muslims™" rings pretty hollow. There is no earthly authority on what defines a True Christian/Muslim™ (ps, happy Ramadan!)

This is a loaded statement hehe. I do not think the US is predominantly Christian per say. The earthly authority would be the word of God, but that would take faith and for a non believer there would be no answer for this question.

Originally posted by spamandham
True (assuming he were real). But I'm the vast minority. Is he after a few, or most? If he just wants a few, well, i guess he's got me, but what if he wants everyone? How would he behave then?

I would think he wants all he can get. If he has you today what about tomorrow. there is still hope? Perhaps one day you would come to know the truth? Since I persume he wants everyone he would deceive the elect as you mention next.

Originally posted by spamandham
What you believe and what is true need not be the same. What if you are wrong? What if his intent is to "fool the very elect"? Perhaps his prize is the very people who are the elect, just as the Bible says. Would that be an awesome deception or what?

lol yeah it would be. This whole topic is a conundrum. I can not prove to you that there is a God no more than you can prove that there is a satan. The "character" of God is charity, faith, Hope, mercy, etc... The opposite is satan. If the text are true or not. If God/satan exist or not. Whos "Character" would you want to be more like?

[edit on 5-10-2005 by GameSetMatch]

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
The "character" of God is charity, faith, Hope, mercy, etc... The opposite is satan. If the text are true or not. If God/satan exist or not. Whos "Character" would you want to be more like?

Wouldn't it be interesting if character rather than beliefs were in fact the bottom line?

Forgive me I am a simple minded man with not nearly enough bible reading under my belt.........

Before I fall offtopic his biggest trick would be form as Jesus and perform a miracle and say come on folks follow me now I am gonna set the world on fire and now bow to me and worship me! Just in case I will just stay burning ask God to allow me to the next stage of whatever it maybe..

What if this has happened already? All the bibles you read or pure crap?

Maybe his biggest trick is you read a book and belive he exsists?

F Satan and beliving in him. I don't care if the bible states it.

and if there are only 144k people that are not affected I am screwed as I admit I have commited sin. So God if your listening I apologize and ask forgivness for sin but the day I belive in satan is the day Allah emails me and asks me for my AIM!

With that said before the bibles was there Satan?

A lot of people prior to the Bible worshiped the Sun a big fire ball that maybe hell so who knows who runs this world at the end of the day I recognize the creator of all this me you and the nuts on the trees. So who ever she/he/it/us is I am on his team!

Originally posted by japike
A lot of people prior to the Bible worshiped the Sun a big fire ball...

Judaism is an offshoot of sun worship. The clues are all over the Old Testament, and confirmed by archaeology. Christianity mixed in beliefs from the mystery religions.

Ahh good point! I never knew of that. I am gonna have to read more about that now! "Sun of God" or "Son of God" I have heard that somewhere..

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by japike
A lot of people prior to the Bible worshiped the Sun a big fire ball...

Judaism is an offshoot of sun worship. The clues are all over the Old Testament, and confirmed by archaeology. Christianity mixed in beliefs from the mystery religions.

This guy is friggin break dancing! He is good to. I wonder about the blood to the head thing though? Maybe the big head helps!!!

Originally posted by japike
This guy is friggin break dancing! He is good to. I wonder about the blood to the head thing though? Maybe the big head helps!!!

is that a complement, or should i add you to my ignore list?

Oh no no no I was just being goofy this morning when I saw the avatar. I never seen that one before. Not some sort of underlying comment toward you I am not like some of the folks that tend to cruise through message boards that tend to have number one priority to offend.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by japike
This guy is friggin break dancing! He is good to. I wonder about the blood to the head thing though? Maybe the big head helps!!!

is that a complement, or should i add you to my ignore list?