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Popular Mechanics Is Correct? (Seismographs)
page: 2share:
==================================================================
..NIST......NIST...NIST-times are in:........NYRT.................................17sec later in:....PSRT
Interval.....Total...NY events observed by NIST in televised time..........LDEO sig.arrival (sec)
==================================================================
.........................LDEO states begin of collaps at NYRT+PSRT 5:20:33 pm...................-7.0s
...............0.0......LDEO seismic-graph starts at....NYRT+PSRT 5:20:40 pm....................0.0s
.........................Time for first (by New York soil and bedrock) delayed seismic
.........................signals to arrive at LDEO Pallisades seismic station...........................17.0s
..0.0.........0.0.....Movement of east penthouse roofline at 5:20:46 NYRT.....................23.0s
.........................(17+ 6s = 23s PSRT) or (5:20:46+17s = 5:20:63 NYRT)
..0.9.........0.9.....East penthouse kinks between columns 44 and 45............................23.9s
.........................2 windows at floor 40 fail between columns 44 - 45.................23.9s - 24.2s
..0.3.........1.2.....4 windows fail at floor 40................................................................24.2s
.........................East penthouse submerged from view (now inside building).....24.2s - 24.6s
..0.4.....->.1.7.....3 windows break at floors 41 to 44..................................................24.6s
..0.5.........2.2.....East penthouse completely submerged............................................25.1s
..1.8.........4.0.....Windows break along column 46 at floors 37 and 40.........................26.9s
..3.0.........7.0.....North side of west penthouse moves................................................29.9s
.........................Movement of entire north face of WTC7 (vis.above floor 21)....29.9s - 30.1s
..0.2.........7.2.....West end of roof starts to move......................................................30.1s
..0.5.........7.7.....East end of roof starts to move.......................................................30.6s
.........................Façade kink formed along column 46-47...............................30.6s - 30.7s
..0.1.....->.7.9.....West penthouse submerged...........................................................30.7s
..0.3.........8.2.....Global collapse occurs as windows fail between floors 33-39................31.0s
.........................around column 55
==================================================================
Thus, the 31.0 sec point on the LDEO graph of the collapse sequence of WTC-7 can be compared to the real-time moment when we all saw WTC-7 starting to totally collapse on tv at 5:20:54 p.m. on September 11, 2001.
To confirm to yourself that there actually is a seismic signal-arrival delay time of 17 seconds in ALL 5 LDEO seismic graphs implemented, you just have to look at the two first ones, the plane impacts, to see that the moment of the first plane's impact is at 16.95 seconds, and the second plane's impact is at 16.35 seconds after the zero starting point on the graphs.
Popular Mechanics served us this image link from the LDEO site :
media.popularmechanics.com...
where you can confirm these R =Rayleigh seismic-signal arrival times yourself. (Image already posted in my answer to bsbray11 earlier in this thread).
The S? 12.8 sec signal arrival on this chart for both WTC-tower collapses is their assumption of the first S-wave (Love-waves) arrival at Pallisades seismic station. An S-wave travels somewhat faster than an R-wave in the upper earth crust.
I am still confused why LDEO did not include their WTC-7 collapse graph in this overall graph of their 9/11 seismic events, since they went to great length to allign the zero starting points of the 4 events they showed, and even compensated the nm/sec data of all 4 events to arrive at a comparable size of all 4 graphs (they did not use in that Popular Mechanics image their 0-10 and 0-100 nm/sec usual scales like in their other pages), which in fact obscured the fact that the Tower collapses were of a 10 times greater magnitude. They must have known these graphs were gone to be viewed by an overwhelmingly non-scientificly schooled audience, but they still opted to adhere to a difficult to interprete and/or compare attitude. The fact that they did not indicate clearly the signal delay time of 17 sec was also not helpfull. You had to read another pdf file of dr. Kim to find a short mentioning of this fact.
When it became clear to me that the first sign of internal collapse aligned on their graph with a moment, 4 or 5 seconds AFTER those first huge spikes on their graph, I have taken one month time to check and re-check all other possibilities, but could not find a plausible explanation for those huge spikes, long before even the penthouse roof of WTC-7 dented a bit.
And the most damning evidence for the NIST draft report conclusion is the fact that the energy involved in the first plane's WTC tower impact graph, (which btw was straight bulls-eye at the centre collumns of that tower, sending a huge vibration into the bedrock) and the energy involved in those huge spikes in the WTC-7 graph BEFORE visual signs of collapse, are clearly nearly identical, and plotted at the same scale of 0-10 nm/sec.
And the actual collapse spikes are much smaller than those first pre-collapse spikes, while in fact the whole building mass roared to the ground, instead of a few columns giving way.
The only difference is the height of the WTC tower and WTC-7.
Just perform a little test yourself. Take a 30 cm metal rod or ruler, press it at 5 cm of it's top firmly with your thumb against a flat side of a table, snap one's other hand index finger against the top. Repeat that same force used for the finger snap for 15 cm of the same rod. Note which event caused the strongest vibration in the table and which event had the longest duration.
It's the 15 cm rod.
That means that the earliest huge spikes in the WTC-7 graph were caused by an event even more energy-rich than the impact of the first plane, to be able to cause a nearly identical spike length in the seismic graph with the same 0-10 nm/sec scale. And 5 seconds later the penthouse roof dented a bit (23s graph position), and another 8 seconds later -13 seconds total- (31s graph position) the obvious collapse started, which lasted about 8 - 9 seconds, the visual collapse ending at a total of 21 seconds after those first huge spikes at the 18-19 s point on the LDEO WTC-7 graph. That visual collapse end is the 40s graph position.
I have also checked on the LDEO pdf file publicized by dr.Kim, and found that one of the co-signers, prof Wallace, is on the payroll of the US government as a forensic seismologist :
www.spacedaily.com... (allow only session cookies, block all the rest, to see the text, otherwise you will be served an12 hrs advertisement and no text)
Someone perhaps wanted prof Wallace to disappear from the public eye, since his personal website is the only one now closed to the public at his university department. And also the WayBack archive ( www.archive.org... ) is cleaned from most of his latest professional pages.....
And that same someone also didn't want his other colleagues mentioned in that article, to go public, as prof Wallace first did in 2001. At that time he still answered emails from the public.
Perhaps these forensic seismologists were aware that there was something fishy with that (then already widespread) seismic WTC-7 graph, but were effectively silenced, just as the USGS researchers were silenced directly by the White House when they asked for more dust sampling, especially at Ground Zero, shortly after 9/11.
All in the name of "National security"? Yeah, right, "Personal security for a Few Convulsive Liars" could be a better description.
These forensic seismological experts, who can find the seismic footprint of a 3 ton TNT explosion at the Kenian US-Embassy bombing afterwards, could surely find the footprint of cutter charges in the WTC events also afterwards.
Dangerous people for those trying to hide eventual conspiracy proof, but interesting for those who want to learn the truth.
[edit on 31/10/05 by LaBTop]
[edit on 31/10/05 by LaBTop]
[edit on 31/10/05 by LaBTop]
wecomeinpeace, please have a close look at this video :
www.911inplanesite.com...
There was no disinformation. Just a photo which, because it was suspicious, was included legitimately in the movie "In Plane Site". The photo of the smoke was indeed explained later as being due to wtc2 collapse. But this was not an intentional disinformation act at all.
Although i don't agree with all he says (military planes), Dave Von Kleist is certainly not a disinformator. He is a sincere and honest citizen who just want the truth. Nothing more.
Thanks for that, Musclor. Nice to see that it wasn't von Kleist that originally started it. I've always felt that he was very sincere, and I was quite surprised and disappointed when these things started coming out. I guess it's a lesson to von Kleist to check and triple check everything before you put it on video and start promoting it. The In Plane Site website is still all about the "no 757" and the "plane pods". I think these are at best, red herrings, and at worst, strawmen. But that video has given me pause for thought, and I'll reserve judgement on von Kleist for now.
Oh what a tangled 9-11 web we weave...
Don't let yourself get fooled by these two LDEO Palissade's 10 times smaller plotted (0-100 nm/s), seismic graphs of the WTC 2 (south tower), first
collapse; and the WTC 1 (north tower), second collapse.
Do yourself a favour, and blow these 2 seismic graphs up 10 times, to the same sensibility as the WTC 7 collapse graph.
Do not pay attention yet to the actual immens collapse peaks, which will run off the paper, but look at the ones in front of them.
If you compare these 2 new (0-10 nm/s) enlarged ones to the WTC 7 graph, to your surprise, you will find the same huge spikes suddenly pre-run the actual visual collapse points, same as in the WTC 7 graph.
Interesting, how some people really used every trick in the book to give the average Joe the impression that all was well with these seismic graphs.
What's much more interesting, is the fact that these pre-collapse, suddenly appearing huge spikes are of the same magnitude as the huge precollapse spikes in the WTC 7 seismic graph.
That means that the originating event was for all 3 collapses the SAME kind of event.
However, if we saw here the effect of bearing columns snap, we should expect that the resulting vibrational force on the bedrock would be MUCH bigger for the 110 stories high collumns of WTC 1 and 2 snapping, than for the 44 stories high collumns in the WTC 7 building snapping.
Perhaps as big as 3 times more.
However, the effects on the bedrock are nearly identical.......
Tell me, how to explain that observation.
You can see that the two WTC 1 and 2 seismic graphs were processed the same day, Tue Sep 11 at 16:13 and 16:15, but the WTC 7 collapse seemed to have caused them some unexplained problems, since that one was, at last, processed 3 days later on Fri Sep 14 at 11:52, 2001. (Bottom lines of each graph)
Did they perhaps needed those 3 days to overcome obstruction from concerned forensic seismic experts ?
Do yourself a favour, and blow these 2 seismic graphs up 10 times, to the same sensibility as the WTC 7 collapse graph.
Do not pay attention yet to the actual immens collapse peaks, which will run off the paper, but look at the ones in front of them.
If you compare these 2 new (0-10 nm/s) enlarged ones to the WTC 7 graph, to your surprise, you will find the same huge spikes suddenly pre-run the actual visual collapse points, same as in the WTC 7 graph.
Interesting, how some people really used every trick in the book to give the average Joe the impression that all was well with these seismic graphs.
What's much more interesting, is the fact that these pre-collapse, suddenly appearing huge spikes are of the same magnitude as the huge precollapse spikes in the WTC 7 seismic graph.
That means that the originating event was for all 3 collapses the SAME kind of event.
However, if we saw here the effect of bearing columns snap, we should expect that the resulting vibrational force on the bedrock would be MUCH bigger for the 110 stories high collumns of WTC 1 and 2 snapping, than for the 44 stories high collumns in the WTC 7 building snapping.
Perhaps as big as 3 times more.
However, the effects on the bedrock are nearly identical.......
Tell me, how to explain that observation.
You can see that the two WTC 1 and 2 seismic graphs were processed the same day, Tue Sep 11 at 16:13 and 16:15, but the WTC 7 collapse seemed to have caused them some unexplained problems, since that one was, at last, processed 3 days later on Fri Sep 14 at 11:52, 2001. (Bottom lines of each graph)
Did they perhaps needed those 3 days to overcome obstruction from concerned forensic seismic experts ?
Originally posted by LaBTop
It must have been a huge explosion or multiple simultaneous explosions to break most of the bearing columns of the WTC-7 building at ground level, since we saw no huge explosions higher up, where the tv camera's were aimed at, which were only allowed to film behind the security perimeter lines, hundreds of meters away from WTC-7.
Even at a couple of hundred meters away, an explosion like you postulate would have been clearly audible on the video.
In addition, there were numerous firefighters, police and other rescue personell in and about the areas when WTC 7 came down.
None of them reported hearing any explosions before the building fell.
made of kevlar. Used by the police and armies worldwide when they don't want to attrack attention of opponents.
And slow burning super-thermite cutters are nearly soundless, but give an immens white light off. (see the blankets again to get rid of that.
Then you only need relatively energy poor replacement charges to shift the still remained standing pieces of column to move one column width or more.
Then the gravity will do the rest.
This could have been done in the many hours before WTC 7 collapsed by a small demolition group of a few people.
I know that the brother of NYFD Captain Pfiefer, NYFD lieutenant Kevin Pfiefer of rig 33 was seen in WTC 7 as the last firefighter guiding others away from a blocked stairway there, 30 seconds before the last group of firefighters escaped and then the building collapsed.
Kevin is dead.
I salute all these immensly brave rescuers. May they rest in peace, but not before we all know the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Let them please not have died for a greedy bunch of non-humans.
And slow burning super-thermite cutters are nearly soundless, but give an immens white light off. (see the blankets again to get rid of that.
Then you only need relatively energy poor replacement charges to shift the still remained standing pieces of column to move one column width or more.
Then the gravity will do the rest.
This could have been done in the many hours before WTC 7 collapsed by a small demolition group of a few people.
I know that the brother of NYFD Captain Pfiefer, NYFD lieutenant Kevin Pfiefer of rig 33 was seen in WTC 7 as the last firefighter guiding others away from a blocked stairway there, 30 seconds before the last group of firefighters escaped and then the building collapsed.
Kevin is dead.
I salute all these immensly brave rescuers. May they rest in peace, but not before we all know the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Let them please not have died for a greedy bunch of non-humans.
Here is his recollection of what happened at WTC 7 with his brother :
So, the earlier reports that all firemen were pulled out of WTC 7 is not correct, the whole rig 33 firefighter personnel was killed there.
A bit strange that the leaseholder of the WTC 1 to 7 complex, Silverstein, stated in his famous interview (where he used the term " we decided to pull it " , to not loose any more lives), that all rescuers had been pulled out of WTC 7 before the final collapse, "and then we watched it collapse".
There were quite a lot of people still running around in that building, so late in the afternoon, when we have numerous statements of firefighter chiefs that long before 17:20:33 everybody was told that WTC 7 was unsave and could collapse any moment.
What were these people doing there ?
You can find many reports of firefighters who early in the afternoon already had the impression that WTC 7 "didn't looked right", had "huge wholes in it" and the building was sqeaking and several floors were moving".
Why were firemen still trying to help "other people out", mere seconds before collapse?
The building WTC 7 was ordered evacuated at 09:44 in the MORNING !
That damn strange decision at a much too early time to abandon the 27 million dollars upgraded OEM Command Center of mayor Guiliano.
That was the most cowardly decision made on that morning, either by Guiliano or a higher up in command at that moment, and it could be a NYPD commissioner who gave that order, he also ordered the Empire State Building to be evacuated just before 09:44 a.m.
It is very strange that in the NIST Final Report 1-8 from 26 October 2005 (still no final on WTC 7). , there is a very long list of rescue personnel witness statements at the end, but there are NO mentions of ANY decisions coming through on ALL radio channels BEFORE 09:44 from the OEM Command Center.
And that from a 27 million dollar upgraded Command Center.
The only one is a statement from an EMS officer, that he was assigned to OEM.
Not long before OEM was abandoned, effectively leaving the whole nerve center of all rescue operations worthless.
It took another 14 minutes before the first collapse occured, and then still the firefighter command desk was bravely operating in WTC 2, the south tower, farest away from WTC 7.
Why had that so important OEM center needed to be totally abandoned ?
There are some small indications why in this report, but you have to read between the lines a bit. I'll address that later.
[edit on 1/11/05 by LaBTop]
Firehouse: Were you watching 7 World Trade Center?
Pfiefer: Yes, I watched 7. At one point, we were standing on the west side of West Street and Vesey. And I remember Chief Nigro coming back at that point saying I don’t want anybody else killed and to take everybody two blocks up virtually to North End and Vesey, which is a good ways up. And we stood there and we watched 7 collapse.
I also remember at one point trying to contact my brother on the radio and not being able to do that and I figure he’ll find me, I’m the guy in the white hat. It’s a lot easier to find me than for me to find him. When that didn’t occur, I wound up walking the site, looking for anybody from 33. The rig was intact on the corner, but I couldn’t find him or anybody else from 33.
Dennis Tardio was coming down the C stairs in building 7. At about the 9th or 10th floor, he met my brother Kevin, who told Dennis, you can’t get down these stairs, there was all sorts of debris. He directed him to the B stairs and, according to Captain Tardio, they got out of the building and 30 seconds later it started collapsing. If they would have continued in the same stairs, there was no way they would have been out. I’m not too sure if my brother stayed there a little longer and directed more companies along with his guys or he was doing what firemen do, make sure all the brothers get out.
Firehouse: Did they all get killed?
Pfiefer: Yes.
Firehouse: You couldn’t find anybody from 33?
Pfiefer: Right.
So, the earlier reports that all firemen were pulled out of WTC 7 is not correct, the whole rig 33 firefighter personnel was killed there.
A bit strange that the leaseholder of the WTC 1 to 7 complex, Silverstein, stated in his famous interview (where he used the term " we decided to pull it " , to not loose any more lives), that all rescuers had been pulled out of WTC 7 before the final collapse, "and then we watched it collapse".
There were quite a lot of people still running around in that building, so late in the afternoon, when we have numerous statements of firefighter chiefs that long before 17:20:33 everybody was told that WTC 7 was unsave and could collapse any moment.
What were these people doing there ?
You can find many reports of firefighters who early in the afternoon already had the impression that WTC 7 "didn't looked right", had "huge wholes in it" and the building was sqeaking and several floors were moving".
Why were firemen still trying to help "other people out", mere seconds before collapse?
The building WTC 7 was ordered evacuated at 09:44 in the MORNING !
That damn strange decision at a much too early time to abandon the 27 million dollars upgraded OEM Command Center of mayor Guiliano.
That was the most cowardly decision made on that morning, either by Guiliano or a higher up in command at that moment, and it could be a NYPD commissioner who gave that order, he also ordered the Empire State Building to be evacuated just before 09:44 a.m.
It is very strange that in the NIST Final Report 1-8 from 26 October 2005 (still no final on WTC 7). , there is a very long list of rescue personnel witness statements at the end, but there are NO mentions of ANY decisions coming through on ALL radio channels BEFORE 09:44 from the OEM Command Center.
And that from a 27 million dollar upgraded Command Center.
The only one is a statement from an EMS officer, that he was assigned to OEM.
Not long before OEM was abandoned, effectively leaving the whole nerve center of all rescue operations worthless.
It took another 14 minutes before the first collapse occured, and then still the firefighter command desk was bravely operating in WTC 2, the south tower, farest away from WTC 7.
Why had that so important OEM center needed to be totally abandoned ?
There are some small indications why in this report, but you have to read between the lines a bit. I'll address that later.
[edit on 1/11/05 by LaBTop]
Explosion muffling blankets,
made of kevlar. Used by the police and armies worldwide when they don't want to attrack attention of opponents.
Hmmm...now that's a new twist...
Would you happen to have a link to these blankets ?
Or is it something you made up, or seen in a game ?
And they planted these explosives and blankets, right under everyones noses, without anyone noticing. What did they use stealth blankets to cover themselves so people wouldn't see them ?
Ahhh...you people amaze me, but hey keep it up, it's always good for a good laugh...
[edit on 1-11-2005 by Jedi_Master]
They had AT LEAST THREE HRS time to run around unnoticed. But in fact MUCH much more, the WTC 7 building with the OEM Command Center on the 3rd and
23rd floor was ordered to be evacuated at 09:44 A.M.
It were just the FDNY Chiefs who ordered their boys out at 14:20 p.m.
But they didn't...... see this :
As we all know, according to The Truth of 9-11 poll from wecomeinpeace, there are an awfull lot of people at these forums, who do not trust the top echelons of the former and recent US government. Especially since the last one, in hindsight, proved to the whole world, what a bunch of convulsive liars they are, when Collin Powell was used as their scape goat, to read and show video coverage at the UN general assembly that list of enormous lies they fabricated to push the western world into a war on all muslims.
Beginning with the muslim nations non-confirmative to US neoconservative policy, and in posession of lots of oil, or passage way to new oilfields.
So I had a look at the 10/26/2005 Final NIST report 1-8, the one with so many eyewitness reports of the WTC towers events in it at the bottom of that file and scattered all through it.
And filtered out what happened at the WTC 7 tower all day, which I am, just as so many of you, the most interested in, because I expect to find quite some evidence of unexplainable events there.
I did read Howard Roark's postings of firefighter eyewitness reports from the NYFD website regarding damages to WTC 7.
I had also seen that that website was updated 7 am in the morning of 9 Sep 2002.
I will come back at that in a later extensive posting.
For now, let's first look at this :
NIST Final Report 1-8 from 26 October 2005 (still no final on WTC 7).
(The contents of this pdf document can not be copied and is password protected, can not be processed, can however be printed).
This means you have to TYPE by hand all content. They really do the best they can to discourage public discussions in internet forums by not allowing to copy and paste from their Final pdf files... I'm not going to spend 20 black ink cartridges on these reports and then scan and convert to text again; Ctrl/Copy doesn't work, PageSource gives machine language output, just as PrintToFile, so you can't copy from there. I have to type all the quotes. I'm "not amused".
A pdf-search for the word " WTC 7 " came up with 98 hits in this Final 1-8 report :
page 28/294 :
"Structural Fire Response and Collapse Analysis;
Project Leaders : Dr. John L. Gross and Dr. Therese P. McAllister.
Analyze the response of the WTC towers to fires with and without aircraft damage, the response of WTC 7 in fires, the performance of composite steel-trussed floor systems, and determine the most probable structural collapse sequence for WTC 1, 2, and 7."
page 31/294 :
"A companion report on the collapse of WTC 7 is being issued as NIST NCSTAR 1A." (not yet published)
----------------------------
---Regarding that strange early evacuation of the OEM command center in WTC 7 :
5.9 EMERGENCY RESPONSE OPERATIONS AT WORLD TRADE CENTER 7
page 43/294 :
Interagency Protocols: "The New York City Office of Emergency Management (OEM) was established, and it took on the job of promoting the improvement of interagency operations; however, on September 11, 2001, the OEM center located at WTC 7 became ineffective as WTC 7 was evacuated by the emergency response personnel." (no time given here)
See also the comments at the bottom of page 50 , NIST only mentions "the loss of the city's OEM operations center located inside WTC 7." They went to 75 Barclay Street, which is the second street behind WTC 7, which provisorical command post had to be "quickly evacuated" when the towers collapsed.
See also the comment on page 51 and 75 : "unified operations were made significantly worse when the OEM facility located inside WTC 7 had to be evacuated."
See also page 88/294 :
9:44 a.m. (E) "The Office of Emergency Management operations center inside WTC 7 is evacuated.
(FDNY, interview 24, winter 2004)"
(Does that "is" indicate the evacuation is completed, since otherwise the words "starting to be" should be used after it also. Did they anticipate at least 15 minutes in advance on the imminent collapse of the -farest- away WTC 2 south tower, radioded in by the NYPD heli sending that message? The first collapse, of the WTC 2 south tower was at 09:59:04 (EDT) according to the seismic table of LDEO Palisades. Their still is something very strange with that far too fast evacuation order of WTC 7.)
See also page 120/294 :
"...to keep track of patients. This was done with pencil and paper. All the data on patients was lost when the buildings collapsed. The loss of WTC 7 ..OEM.., hampered the ability to track patients within the system.(ref131) One of the EMS Chiefs assigned to go to WTC 7 was inside the OEM when it was ordered evacuated...etc."
As the second aircraft struck WTC 2 (south tower), a decision was made to evacuate WTC 7.(ref370)
At approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city ( this came from the Mayor Giuliano Office ! see below ) and news that the Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7. (Sheirer 2004). This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor. (There was also a part of OEM on the 3rd floor!)
Where was Mayor Guiliano when that evacuation order went out? Clearly not at OEM, or he would have given that order.
( Remember, the same Guliano who declared all his files from his period as a mayor, "personal" and locked them away for 25 years, after he stepped down as NY Mayor ! )
page 269/294 :
09:35 "FDC (NYPD, First Deputy Commissioner) orders no roof rescue to be attempted."
09:35:18 "PAPD Police Desk radio report....Please be advised from the Mayor's office. Be advised that another plane hit in this area.... 09:35:55 - Roger. Understand the Mayor's office; another plane is in the area."
Clearly misinformation from the Mayor's office, causing OEM to be abandoned at 9:44 a.m.....
page 162-165/294 :
Read all these pages to get a full report from NIST of their explanation of events at the WTC 7 building untill collapse, especially what happened at the OEM center.
There is no mentioning at all of the firefighters at present circa 1 minute before collapse, and the killing in the collapse of all personnel of rig 33, included lieutenant Kevin Pfiefer, the brother of Chief Pfiefer.
What were all these men doing in there, just before an already declared empty and lost building collapsed ?
See also the last sentences of this 5.9 part of NIST 1-8 report :
At +/-, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building (ref 395,396) ... Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At +/- 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.
-----------------------------
page 58/294 :
Project 5. "Information from emergency responders on conditions in stairwells and other areas of the towers and WTC 7."
Project 6. "Structural Fire Response and Collapse Analysis (regarding WTC 7 only). Information from first-person interviews on the damage inflicted on WTC 7 by the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2."
page 67/294 :
"For response to World Trade Center building 7:
Each emergency responder was asked to describe their experience in their own words and end their narrative after the WTC 7 collapse."
page 140/294 :
"Two PAPD personnel reported that they were trapped inside WTC 1 and used their service pistols to shoot windows out so that they could get out of the building.(ref249)
A NYPD officer also used a service pistol to shoot a window out in an attempt to escape the collapse.(ref250) This was done when an NYPD Special Operations Unit team was trapped near the front of WTC 7 and a window was shot out in an attempt to form an exit route through the WTC 7 building. "
A special operations police unit running around in a building declared by all experts to be unsafe hours and hours before ?
Just before collapse ?
What the hell were these people looking for which was so damn important that they risked their lifes for it ???
page 263/294 :
09:18:14 "NYPD calls for the evacuation of the Empire State Building."
page 267/294 :
"EMS - WTC 7 Division established (FDNY, McKinsea & Company, 2002)"
09:30 "An Assistant Fire Chief recalled that the WTC 1 building conditions were poor and made the decision that the building was no longer safe (FDNY interview #2, winter 2003)"
page 269/294 :
09:35 "FDC (NYPD, First Deputy Commissioner) orders no roof rescue to be attempted."
09:35:18 "PAPD Police Desk radio report....Please be advised from the Mayor's office. Be advised that another plane hit in this area.... 09:35:55 - Roger. Understand the Mayor's office; another plane is in the area."
page 271/294 :
09:43:26 "WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "Bill, I'm at the Financial Center. I'm at the fire command station. If you want to send them over here, they have a secure hard line." "10-4" ."
then, about 34 seconds later..... :
09:44 a.m. (E) "The Office of Emergency Management operations center inside WTC 7 is evacuated.
(FDNY, interview 24, winter 2004)"
Why they evacuated, they still don't explain. Strange, indeed, if you look at that preceeding request for a secure hard line from Bill from the WTC security unit.
To my knowledge, when a security officer is offered a secure hard telephone line, he wants to relay something VERY important to someone else, without having the risk to be tapped or listened to, or loose connection. That message must have been damn important, and Bill realised that hundreds of people were listening in to his radio dispatches.
Did Bill found something which needed to be kept secret? Or the people ("them") the receiver of his call refered to?
Where is the recording of Bill's question(s) ???
That recording is probably lost in that famous OEM center, upgraded lately for 27 million dollar, with windows able to withstand a 180 miles/hr wind, bullet proof, which data base of 9/11 events ended up as WTC 7 rubble....
And I don't believe that the preceeding radio-in has anything to do with people asking for a secure hard line. Volunteers don't need that.
09:42:52 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "We have people out here that want to volunteer to help. Where can I send them?" "Right now, just send everybody away from the World Trade. We are not letting anybody come close to it. So, ... with that."
Just a coincidence that those "..." indicate a lost sentence. Or not lost but left out ?
Then this radio comes in :
09:44:20 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "FS1, go ahead Mike." Bill have them walk across the bridge ... is at the top of the bridge. He'll tell them exactly where to go."
"Alright. That's a 10-4 Mike. They haven't evacuated the fire command over here." "In Building 2 or 1?" "Building 2." "That was the last word so ah we have a spot here if that's what they want to do." "10-4".
(Untill the 09:59 collapse of WTC 2, south tower, the fire command desk in Building 2, was still operating.)
09:49:27 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "S2, Please convey to Doug that ... is on his way down." "....Could you repeat that?" "S2 to S1 ...." "George, slow down I can't understand you." ... "Doug or Anesto Butcher has to talk to ... Its imperative."
Imperative is used as an order, very urgent and necessairy.
Again, who is on his way down is left out ("...") again.
Now -imagine- John O'Neill, the former FBI deputy director, who left the FBI because he was disgruntled by the hampering of his investigations of Bin Laden by his own superiors, is the one on his way down. And made it clear to his co-workers who were trained security personnel, (used to "double-talk" to bring a covert message over), that he had discovered something strange at floor 25, where he was last seen according to reports, and these same reports explained that that floor 25 was totally demolished, when the reporters had a look inside. That was the floor where a new computer security system was installed. (The Venzuelan janitor also reported that floor demolished in an early stage after planes hit)
How could a floor so low in the building have been totally demolished by a plane impact at the 77-85 floors?
And John and/or his companions wanted to report proof of inside terroristic deeds to someone he/they trusted, and needed a secure line for that.
They were killed at the way out.
How about that for a conspiracy theory?
Is this Anesto Butcher from WTC Security under the fatalities of 9/11 ? Or a man named Doug, or Mike, or Bill, or George, all from Security?
We shall soon know.
[edit on 2/11/05 by LaBTop]
It were just the FDNY Chiefs who ordered their boys out at 14:20 p.m.
But they didn't...... see this :
As we all know, according to The Truth of 9-11 poll from wecomeinpeace, there are an awfull lot of people at these forums, who do not trust the top echelons of the former and recent US government. Especially since the last one, in hindsight, proved to the whole world, what a bunch of convulsive liars they are, when Collin Powell was used as their scape goat, to read and show video coverage at the UN general assembly that list of enormous lies they fabricated to push the western world into a war on all muslims.
Beginning with the muslim nations non-confirmative to US neoconservative policy, and in posession of lots of oil, or passage way to new oilfields.
So I had a look at the 10/26/2005 Final NIST report 1-8, the one with so many eyewitness reports of the WTC towers events in it at the bottom of that file and scattered all through it.
And filtered out what happened at the WTC 7 tower all day, which I am, just as so many of you, the most interested in, because I expect to find quite some evidence of unexplainable events there.
I did read Howard Roark's postings of firefighter eyewitness reports from the NYFD website regarding damages to WTC 7.
I had also seen that that website was updated 7 am in the morning of 9 Sep 2002.
I will come back at that in a later extensive posting.
For now, let's first look at this :
NIST Final Report 1-8 from 26 October 2005 (still no final on WTC 7).
(The contents of this pdf document can not be copied and is password protected, can not be processed, can however be printed).
This means you have to TYPE by hand all content. They really do the best they can to discourage public discussions in internet forums by not allowing to copy and paste from their Final pdf files... I'm not going to spend 20 black ink cartridges on these reports and then scan and convert to text again; Ctrl/Copy doesn't work, PageSource gives machine language output, just as PrintToFile, so you can't copy from there. I have to type all the quotes. I'm "not amused".
A pdf-search for the word " WTC 7 " came up with 98 hits in this Final 1-8 report :
page 28/294 :
"Structural Fire Response and Collapse Analysis;
Project Leaders : Dr. John L. Gross and Dr. Therese P. McAllister.
Analyze the response of the WTC towers to fires with and without aircraft damage, the response of WTC 7 in fires, the performance of composite steel-trussed floor systems, and determine the most probable structural collapse sequence for WTC 1, 2, and 7."
page 31/294 :
"A companion report on the collapse of WTC 7 is being issued as NIST NCSTAR 1A." (not yet published)
----------------------------
---Regarding that strange early evacuation of the OEM command center in WTC 7 :
5.9 EMERGENCY RESPONSE OPERATIONS AT WORLD TRADE CENTER 7
page 43/294 :
Interagency Protocols: "The New York City Office of Emergency Management (OEM) was established, and it took on the job of promoting the improvement of interagency operations; however, on September 11, 2001, the OEM center located at WTC 7 became ineffective as WTC 7 was evacuated by the emergency response personnel." (no time given here)
See also the comments at the bottom of page 50 , NIST only mentions "the loss of the city's OEM operations center located inside WTC 7." They went to 75 Barclay Street, which is the second street behind WTC 7, which provisorical command post had to be "quickly evacuated" when the towers collapsed.
See also the comment on page 51 and 75 : "unified operations were made significantly worse when the OEM facility located inside WTC 7 had to be evacuated."
See also page 88/294 :
9:44 a.m. (E) "The Office of Emergency Management operations center inside WTC 7 is evacuated.
(FDNY, interview 24, winter 2004)"
(Does that "is" indicate the evacuation is completed, since otherwise the words "starting to be" should be used after it also. Did they anticipate at least 15 minutes in advance on the imminent collapse of the -farest- away WTC 2 south tower, radioded in by the NYPD heli sending that message? The first collapse, of the WTC 2 south tower was at 09:59:04 (EDT) according to the seismic table of LDEO Palisades. Their still is something very strange with that far too fast evacuation order of WTC 7.)
See also page 120/294 :
"...to keep track of patients. This was done with pencil and paper. All the data on patients was lost when the buildings collapsed. The loss of WTC 7 ..OEM.., hampered the ability to track patients within the system.(ref131) One of the EMS Chiefs assigned to go to WTC 7 was inside the OEM when it was ordered evacuated...etc."
As the second aircraft struck WTC 2 (south tower), a decision was made to evacuate WTC 7.(ref370)
At approximately 9:44 a.m., after the report of a third aircraft heading into the city ( this came from the Mayor Giuliano Office ! see below ) and news that the Pentagon had been attacked, a Deputy OEM Commissioner ordered the complete evacuation of WTC 7. (Sheirer 2004). This order included the evacuation of the OEM operations center on the 23rd floor. (There was also a part of OEM on the 3rd floor!)
Where was Mayor Guiliano when that evacuation order went out? Clearly not at OEM, or he would have given that order.
( Remember, the same Guliano who declared all his files from his period as a mayor, "personal" and locked them away for 25 years, after he stepped down as NY Mayor ! )
page 269/294 :
09:35 "FDC (NYPD, First Deputy Commissioner) orders no roof rescue to be attempted."
09:35:18 "PAPD Police Desk radio report....Please be advised from the Mayor's office. Be advised that another plane hit in this area.... 09:35:55 - Roger. Understand the Mayor's office; another plane is in the area."
Clearly misinformation from the Mayor's office, causing OEM to be abandoned at 9:44 a.m.....
page 162-165/294 :
Read all these pages to get a full report from NIST of their explanation of events at the WTC 7 building untill collapse, especially what happened at the OEM center.
There is no mentioning at all of the firefighters at present circa 1 minute before collapse, and the killing in the collapse of all personnel of rig 33, included lieutenant Kevin Pfiefer, the brother of Chief Pfiefer.
What were all these men doing in there, just before an already declared empty and lost building collapsed ?
See also the last sentences of this 5.9 part of NIST 1-8 report :
At +/-, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building (ref 395,396) ... Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At +/- 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.
-----------------------------
page 58/294 :
Project 5. "Information from emergency responders on conditions in stairwells and other areas of the towers and WTC 7."
Project 6. "Structural Fire Response and Collapse Analysis (regarding WTC 7 only). Information from first-person interviews on the damage inflicted on WTC 7 by the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2."
page 67/294 :
"For response to World Trade Center building 7:
Each emergency responder was asked to describe their experience in their own words and end their narrative after the WTC 7 collapse."
page 140/294 :
"Two PAPD personnel reported that they were trapped inside WTC 1 and used their service pistols to shoot windows out so that they could get out of the building.(ref249)
A NYPD officer also used a service pistol to shoot a window out in an attempt to escape the collapse.(ref250) This was done when an NYPD Special Operations Unit team was trapped near the front of WTC 7 and a window was shot out in an attempt to form an exit route through the WTC 7 building. "
A special operations police unit running around in a building declared by all experts to be unsafe hours and hours before ?
Just before collapse ?
What the hell were these people looking for which was so damn important that they risked their lifes for it ???
page 263/294 :
09:18:14 "NYPD calls for the evacuation of the Empire State Building."
page 267/294 :
"EMS - WTC 7 Division established (FDNY, McKinsea & Company, 2002)"
09:30 "An Assistant Fire Chief recalled that the WTC 1 building conditions were poor and made the decision that the building was no longer safe (FDNY interview #2, winter 2003)"
page 269/294 :
09:35 "FDC (NYPD, First Deputy Commissioner) orders no roof rescue to be attempted."
09:35:18 "PAPD Police Desk radio report....Please be advised from the Mayor's office. Be advised that another plane hit in this area.... 09:35:55 - Roger. Understand the Mayor's office; another plane is in the area."
page 271/294 :
09:43:26 "WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "Bill, I'm at the Financial Center. I'm at the fire command station. If you want to send them over here, they have a secure hard line." "10-4" ."
then, about 34 seconds later..... :
09:44 a.m. (E) "The Office of Emergency Management operations center inside WTC 7 is evacuated.
(FDNY, interview 24, winter 2004)"
Why they evacuated, they still don't explain. Strange, indeed, if you look at that preceeding request for a secure hard line from Bill from the WTC security unit.
To my knowledge, when a security officer is offered a secure hard telephone line, he wants to relay something VERY important to someone else, without having the risk to be tapped or listened to, or loose connection. That message must have been damn important, and Bill realised that hundreds of people were listening in to his radio dispatches.
Did Bill found something which needed to be kept secret? Or the people ("them") the receiver of his call refered to?
Where is the recording of Bill's question(s) ???
That recording is probably lost in that famous OEM center, upgraded lately for 27 million dollar, with windows able to withstand a 180 miles/hr wind, bullet proof, which data base of 9/11 events ended up as WTC 7 rubble....
And I don't believe that the preceeding radio-in has anything to do with people asking for a secure hard line. Volunteers don't need that.
09:42:52 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "We have people out here that want to volunteer to help. Where can I send them?" "Right now, just send everybody away from the World Trade. We are not letting anybody come close to it. So, ... with that."
Just a coincidence that those "..." indicate a lost sentence. Or not lost but left out ?
Then this radio comes in :
09:44:20 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "FS1, go ahead Mike." Bill have them walk across the bridge ... is at the top of the bridge. He'll tell them exactly where to go."
"Alright. That's a 10-4 Mike. They haven't evacuated the fire command over here." "In Building 2 or 1?" "Building 2." "That was the last word so ah we have a spot here if that's what they want to do." "10-4".
(Untill the 09:59 collapse of WTC 2, south tower, the fire command desk in Building 2, was still operating.)
09:49:27 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "S2, Please convey to Doug that ... is on his way down." "....Could you repeat that?" "S2 to S1 ...." "George, slow down I can't understand you." ... "Doug or Anesto Butcher has to talk to ... Its imperative."
Imperative is used as an order, very urgent and necessairy.
Again, who is on his way down is left out ("...") again.
Now -imagine- John O'Neill, the former FBI deputy director, who left the FBI because he was disgruntled by the hampering of his investigations of Bin Laden by his own superiors, is the one on his way down. And made it clear to his co-workers who were trained security personnel, (used to "double-talk" to bring a covert message over), that he had discovered something strange at floor 25, where he was last seen according to reports, and these same reports explained that that floor 25 was totally demolished, when the reporters had a look inside. That was the floor where a new computer security system was installed. (The Venzuelan janitor also reported that floor demolished in an early stage after planes hit)
How could a floor so low in the building have been totally demolished by a plane impact at the 77-85 floors?
And John and/or his companions wanted to report proof of inside terroristic deeds to someone he/they trusted, and needed a secure line for that.
They were killed at the way out.
How about that for a conspiracy theory?
Is this Anesto Butcher from WTC Security under the fatalities of 9/11 ? Or a man named Doug, or Mike, or Bill, or George, all from Security?
We shall soon know.
[edit on 2/11/05 by LaBTop]
Originally posted by LaBTop
Here is his recollection of what happened at WTC 7 with his brother :
Firehouse: Were you watching 7 World Trade Center?
Pfiefer: Yes, I watched 7. At one point, we were standing on the west side of West Street and Vesey. And I remember Chief Nigro coming back at that point saying I don’t want anybody else killed and to take everybody two blocks up virtually to North End and Vesey, which is a good ways up. And we stood there and we watched 7 collapse.
I also remember at one point trying to contact my brother on the radio and not being able to do that and I figure he’ll find me, I’m the guy in the white hat. It’s a lot easier to find me than for me to find him. When that didn’t occur, I wound up walking the site, looking for anybody from 33. The rig was intact on the corner, but I couldn’t find him or anybody else from 33.
Dennis Tardio was coming down the C stairs in building 7. At about the 9th or 10th floor, he met my brother Kevin, who told Dennis, you can’t get down these stairs, there was all sorts of debris. He directed him to the B stairs and, according to Captain Tardio, they got out of the building and 30 seconds later it started collapsing. If they would have continued in the same stairs, there was no way they would have been out. I’m not too sure if my brother stayed there a little longer and directed more companies along with his guys or he was doing what firemen do, make sure all the brothers get out.
Firehouse: Did they all get killed?
Pfiefer: Yes.
Firehouse: You couldn’t find anybody from 33?
Pfiefer: Right.
So, the earlier reports that all firemen were pulled out of WTC 7 is not correct, the whole rig 33 firefighter personnel was killed there.
Unfortunately, it appears that Joseph Pfeiffer miss-spoke. His brother was killed in the collapse of Tower 1, not WTC 7.
I can find no refrence to any firefighters or anyone else for that matter that was killed in the collapse of WTC 7.
Originally posted by LaBTop
A bit strange that the leaseholder of the WTC 1 to 7 complex, Silverstein, stated in his famous interview (where he used the term " we decided to pull it " , to not loose any more lives), that all rescuers had been pulled out of WTC 7 before the final collapse, "and then we watched it collapse".
There were quite a lot of people still running around in that building, so late in the afternoon, when we have numerous statements of firefighter chiefs that long before 17:20:33 everybody was told that WTC 7 was unsave and could collapse any moment.
What were these people doing there ?
You can find many reports of firefighters who early in the afternoon already had the impression that WTC 7 "didn't looked right", had "huge wholes in it" and the building was sqeaking and several floors were moving".
Why were firemen still trying to help "other people out", mere seconds before collapse?
Dennis Tardio escaped from the collapse of tower 1 with seconds to spare, not WTC 7.
Again, it appears that Joesph Pfeiffer miss spoke orwas miss-quoted in stating that this occured in WTC 7.
Howard, in first instance I also thought that same thing, the text is open for diferent interpretations, but I found upon scrutinizing the Nist 1-8
report something curious there.
-------------------------------------Engine 33
WTC 1 (north tower), collapsed at 10:28:31.
(You assume Kevin and his whole engine 33 personnel were killed in that collapse.)
Do a pdf Search in the NIST 1-8 report, fill in "33" .
Check "on" all possible little boxes in the search field.
You will get 42 results.
Scroll down to the fifth position above the last one and click. (page 283/294) :
10:38:32 Engine 309 / E 33, (reported to Command Post at West and Liberty Streets, etc....)
Scroll down to the fourth position above the last one and click :
10:48:49 Engine 309 /33 (reported to Command Post at West and Liberty Streets, etc....)
Note that there are NO casualties reported, by both Engines 309 and 33, however in many of the same kinds of reports from Engines reporting back, in the rest of these pages, you will see them reporting casualties taken during duty, like all injured, fatalities.
Note also that these are clearly duplicate reports but with a different timestamp. NIST explained above these report pages, that that happened many times in this timeline, because the tapes came from different machines. But they assume no more than a +/- 2 min error in this chronology. And the second report is 10 min later.
So, personnel from Engine 33 with NO casualties seems to be alive and well ten minutes AFTER the second collapse, of WTC 1 (north tower).
There is a fig 5-18 photo of a burned out Engine next to WTC 7, following the collapse of WTC 1 and 2.
Btw, the pump of this one was still running, while the whole rig was burned out, but no water was filling the hose.
This can not be 33, since they reported back to Command Post at West and Liberty Streets after the 2 collapses, and Kevin's brother, Chief Pfiefer said "I wound up walking the site, looking for anybody from 33. The rig was intact on the corner, but I couldn’t find him or anybody else from 33." He said " on the corner", which would not be a normal description for the WTC 1 or 2 site, but adequate for the WTC 7 building with its 4 streets on all sides very near the building.
-------------------------------------The Special Police Unit
Howard, you forgot however to attend me on a valid concern :
In hindsight, my redded-out text about the NYPD Special Operations Unit team trapped near the front of WTC 7 is definitely a case of 3 possible explanations. My first one, or these other two :
2. If this happened during the first WTC 2 (south tower) collapse, and they were in front of the WTC 7 facade, there could be no debris behind them piled up to trap them, since WTC 1 and WTC 6 were still protecting them from any possible debris fallen from WTC 2 in their direction. That explanation is thus nullified.
3. When they talked during their NIST interview about this happening during or just after the second collapse of WTC 1 (north tower) and they stood in front of the south facade of WTC 7, only WTC 6 stood there to protect them.
We know that the south facade of WTC 7 had a huge center hole in it after WTC 1 collapsed, and the southwest corner had a 8 story high corner-piece broken out.
So if they were trapped by falling WTC 1, 6 or 7 debris, their only option was to shoot a window out, to ENTER the building's lobby or whatever rooms, and proceed from there THROUG the building to another safe side of it.
If you read again the surrounding text of my red colored quote, I admit it can also be explanation 3.
But that NIST writer has an abominable bad sense for use of explicit language in that case.
To be sure about it, we will have to find a transcript of NIST 1-8 reference 250.
-------------------------------------WTC Security radio Channel X
NIST interviewed 15 Port Authority personnel, while the PA first agreed to 12. (page 41/294)
How many of these 12 or 15 people were WTC security personnel is not mentioned. That's not much... (an understatement)
This 9:32:05 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "Don't let...Don't let no body come down --- here. Back em up. Back em up. Back it up all the way up, everybody. Get everybody back." and a lot more "back up, back up".
This man seems perhaps to be in panic because the concourse was suddenly flooding with water. But that can never have been deep enough to have him become so much panicked. Something happened in the basement....which made him damn afraid. (page 269/294)
This PA(Port Authority) Channel X from WTC Security is not to find in the list at the end of the report of all radio channels recordings in the hands of NIST, however they print a lot of garbled statements from this Channel X.
Only a Ch. 02WTC 7 radio Ch. X.wav . That one is interesting to listen to, the whole 171 minutes. And the other WTC 7 lines and radiochannels...
The PA Channel X from WTC Security is the one John O'Neill would have used, among others from his new WTC Security colleagues.
There are some strange reports over this Channel X before the collapses. Their Channel W is also interesting to follow untill collapses.
The most suspicious one, just before WTC 2 (south tower), first collapsed, is in my eyes this one :
09:57:27 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "...FS2 to (90 Mike?)" "If you can copy this, I'm responding to over to A Tower Fire Command." "We are trying to get in touch with them from the 22nd floor command center, but we don't know how to operate the other set of equipment." "S2 to 77... Try to get up to the 22nd floor, A Tower command center."
At 09:59:04 WTC 2 collapsed......while these WTC security guys were still pushing their goal to establish a secure hard line (with perhaps their ex-friends in the FBI), to tell something so important, that they risked going up 22 floors to be sure to have a safe telephone line out.
-------------------------------------OEM
Regarding that much too early evacuation from the OEM Command Center from Mayor Giuliani again :
see page 149/294. the first NYPD helicopter report mentioned "large pieces" were falling from WTC 2 at 09:49, when the order to now totally evacuate the WTC 7 building, with OEM already left as the last floor occupied, was already given at 09:44.
Then NIST explains that a runner was sent out "around this time" from OEM (which was evacuated) to ICP in WFC 2 with the message that an engineer believed the WTC towers were nearing conditions that would cause a collapse. He arrived there and was just in the process of delivering the message when WTC 2 collapsed at 09:59:04.
-------------------------------------Engine 33
WTC 1 (north tower), collapsed at 10:28:31.
(You assume Kevin and his whole engine 33 personnel were killed in that collapse.)
Do a pdf Search in the NIST 1-8 report, fill in "33" .
Check "on" all possible little boxes in the search field.
You will get 42 results.
Scroll down to the fifth position above the last one and click. (page 283/294) :
10:38:32 Engine 309 / E 33, (reported to Command Post at West and Liberty Streets, etc....)
Scroll down to the fourth position above the last one and click :
10:48:49 Engine 309 /33 (reported to Command Post at West and Liberty Streets, etc....)
Note that there are NO casualties reported, by both Engines 309 and 33, however in many of the same kinds of reports from Engines reporting back, in the rest of these pages, you will see them reporting casualties taken during duty, like all injured, fatalities.
Note also that these are clearly duplicate reports but with a different timestamp. NIST explained above these report pages, that that happened many times in this timeline, because the tapes came from different machines. But they assume no more than a +/- 2 min error in this chronology. And the second report is 10 min later.
So, personnel from Engine 33 with NO casualties seems to be alive and well ten minutes AFTER the second collapse, of WTC 1 (north tower).
There is a fig 5-18 photo of a burned out Engine next to WTC 7, following the collapse of WTC 1 and 2.
Btw, the pump of this one was still running, while the whole rig was burned out, but no water was filling the hose.
This can not be 33, since they reported back to Command Post at West and Liberty Streets after the 2 collapses, and Kevin's brother, Chief Pfiefer said "I wound up walking the site, looking for anybody from 33. The rig was intact on the corner, but I couldn’t find him or anybody else from 33." He said " on the corner", which would not be a normal description for the WTC 1 or 2 site, but adequate for the WTC 7 building with its 4 streets on all sides very near the building.
-------------------------------------The Special Police Unit
Howard, you forgot however to attend me on a valid concern :
In hindsight, my redded-out text about the NYPD Special Operations Unit team trapped near the front of WTC 7 is definitely a case of 3 possible explanations. My first one, or these other two :
2. If this happened during the first WTC 2 (south tower) collapse, and they were in front of the WTC 7 facade, there could be no debris behind them piled up to trap them, since WTC 1 and WTC 6 were still protecting them from any possible debris fallen from WTC 2 in their direction. That explanation is thus nullified.
3. When they talked during their NIST interview about this happening during or just after the second collapse of WTC 1 (north tower) and they stood in front of the south facade of WTC 7, only WTC 6 stood there to protect them.
We know that the south facade of WTC 7 had a huge center hole in it after WTC 1 collapsed, and the southwest corner had a 8 story high corner-piece broken out.
So if they were trapped by falling WTC 1, 6 or 7 debris, their only option was to shoot a window out, to ENTER the building's lobby or whatever rooms, and proceed from there THROUG the building to another safe side of it.
If you read again the surrounding text of my red colored quote, I admit it can also be explanation 3.
But that NIST writer has an abominable bad sense for use of explicit language in that case.
To be sure about it, we will have to find a transcript of NIST 1-8 reference 250.
-------------------------------------WTC Security radio Channel X
NIST interviewed 15 Port Authority personnel, while the PA first agreed to 12. (page 41/294)
How many of these 12 or 15 people were WTC security personnel is not mentioned. That's not much... (an understatement)
This 9:32:05 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "Don't let...Don't let no body come down --- here. Back em up. Back em up. Back it up all the way up, everybody. Get everybody back." and a lot more "back up, back up".
This man seems perhaps to be in panic because the concourse was suddenly flooding with water. But that can never have been deep enough to have him become so much panicked. Something happened in the basement....which made him damn afraid. (page 269/294)
This PA(Port Authority) Channel X from WTC Security is not to find in the list at the end of the report of all radio channels recordings in the hands of NIST, however they print a lot of garbled statements from this Channel X.
Only a Ch. 02WTC 7 radio Ch. X.wav . That one is interesting to listen to, the whole 171 minutes. And the other WTC 7 lines and radiochannels...
The PA Channel X from WTC Security is the one John O'Neill would have used, among others from his new WTC Security colleagues.
There are some strange reports over this Channel X before the collapses. Their Channel W is also interesting to follow untill collapses.
The most suspicious one, just before WTC 2 (south tower), first collapsed, is in my eyes this one :
09:57:27 WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X - "...FS2 to (90 Mike?)" "If you can copy this, I'm responding to over to A Tower Fire Command." "We are trying to get in touch with them from the 22nd floor command center, but we don't know how to operate the other set of equipment." "S2 to 77... Try to get up to the 22nd floor, A Tower command center."
At 09:59:04 WTC 2 collapsed......while these WTC security guys were still pushing their goal to establish a secure hard line (with perhaps their ex-friends in the FBI), to tell something so important, that they risked going up 22 floors to be sure to have a safe telephone line out.
-------------------------------------OEM
Regarding that much too early evacuation from the OEM Command Center from Mayor Giuliani again :
see page 149/294. the first NYPD helicopter report mentioned "large pieces" were falling from WTC 2 at 09:49, when the order to now totally evacuate the WTC 7 building, with OEM already left as the last floor occupied, was already given at 09:44.
Then NIST explains that a runner was sent out "around this time" from OEM (which was evacuated) to ICP in WFC 2 with the message that an engineer believed the WTC towers were nearing conditions that would cause a collapse. He arrived there and was just in the process of delivering the message when WTC 2 collapsed at 09:59:04.
I would REALLY like to see these blown up seismic graphs saved in the ATS database, and not on an external site, which tend to delete them over time,
or disappear as site.
Because I think ATS has the potential to stay on the Web for a long lasting time !
Nobody took the time and effort to blow up those two WTC 1 and 2 collapse seismic graphs from LDEO, ten times, and cut out the preceeding pre-collapse spikes at the following ranges:
0 to 14 seconds, for the first collapse
0 to 18 seconds, for the second collapse
and then post these two ranges here, together with the WTC 7 collapse graph from LDEO, so all members can see what really happened ?
You could use any good drawing software, and blow the ranges up from 100 to 1000 percent, that will bring those ranges back to the 0-10 nm/s scale, the same scale as in the WTC 7 graph.
Then you'll see what you couldn't see before, those little peaks pre-running the main collapse, are about 7 mm on my screen. Multiplied by ten they become 70 mm, equal to the pre-running peaks of the WTC 7 main collapse.
Then you could post them here as clickable thumbnails (thanks go to Mirthfull Me for his help) :
I do not have enough points yet to upload these pics to ATS.
Any volunteer with an abundance of ATS points?
Thanks in advance!
See my Post Number: 1780509 (post id: 1802402) above.
" Equality of seismic graphs observation. "
I could try to upload them to a free server, which allow pics to stay forever.
Don't know if these excist, however. So again, anybody having a helpfull day?
[edit on 3/11/05 by LaBTop]
Because I think ATS has the potential to stay on the Web for a long lasting time !
Nobody took the time and effort to blow up those two WTC 1 and 2 collapse seismic graphs from LDEO, ten times, and cut out the preceeding pre-collapse spikes at the following ranges:
0 to 14 seconds, for the first collapse
0 to 18 seconds, for the second collapse
and then post these two ranges here, together with the WTC 7 collapse graph from LDEO, so all members can see what really happened ?
You could use any good drawing software, and blow the ranges up from 100 to 1000 percent, that will bring those ranges back to the 0-10 nm/s scale, the same scale as in the WTC 7 graph.
Then you'll see what you couldn't see before, those little peaks pre-running the main collapse, are about 7 mm on my screen. Multiplied by ten they become 70 mm, equal to the pre-running peaks of the WTC 7 main collapse.
Then you could post them here as clickable thumbnails (thanks go to Mirthfull Me for his help) :
Hot linked "Thumbnail" :
Code sequence (delete the space between "[url =" , and add a "/" in front of the last img .
The second "image url" is your external-site or personal-harddisk thumbnail image! :
[url =image url][img]image url[img][/url]
With text under them "Click to Enlarge :
Click to Enlarge
I do not have enough points yet to upload these pics to ATS.
Any volunteer with an abundance of ATS points?
Thanks in advance!
See my Post Number: 1780509 (post id: 1802402) above.
" Equality of seismic graphs observation. "
I could try to upload them to a free server, which allow pics to stay forever.
Don't know if these excist, however. So again, anybody having a helpfull day?
[edit on 3/11/05 by LaBTop]
What are you calling the “preceding collapse spikes?”
The first big spike is part of the collapse signal. I Don’t think you can make the assumption that the biggest signal only is from the collapse.
The biggest signal is probably related to the impact of the bulk of the mass with the ground, but there would have been minor impats within the building itself before that.
In addition, the distance of the recording station from the WTC caused the signal to spread out a bit. Refer to figure 3 in this report.
I think you are reading WAY too much into this, and unless you have specific training and experience in interpreting seismic data, you may be well out in left field.
One interesting note, however. If you notice, there does appear to be a small, rhythmic vibration that occurs just before the collapse. There have been studies of the seismic signals of building structures just before they collapse in fires.
fire.nist.gov...
www.usfa.fema.gov...
www.fire.gov...
Those studies involved small single story structures. Yet they did determine that there were measurable vibrations just prior to the collapse.
Also, an interesting paper on progressive collapse
www.nibs.org...
The first big spike is part of the collapse signal. I Don’t think you can make the assumption that the biggest signal only is from the collapse.
The biggest signal is probably related to the impact of the bulk of the mass with the ground, but there would have been minor impats within the building itself before that.
In addition, the distance of the recording station from the WTC caused the signal to spread out a bit. Refer to figure 3 in this report.
I think you are reading WAY too much into this, and unless you have specific training and experience in interpreting seismic data, you may be well out in left field.
One interesting note, however. If you notice, there does appear to be a small, rhythmic vibration that occurs just before the collapse. There have been studies of the seismic signals of building structures just before they collapse in fires.
fire.nist.gov...
www.usfa.fema.gov...
www.fire.gov...
Those studies involved small single story structures. Yet they did determine that there were measurable vibrations just prior to the collapse.
Also, an interesting paper on progressive collapse
www.nibs.org...
Could it be that you read way too little in these LDEO graphs?
Let me add to it, that I appreciate that a person like you reacts also on my postings, because it has not much sense to start a discussion with likeminded souls. That ends most of the time with a lot of "yes, didn't I tell you so's".
These forums need people like you, who keep the controversion alive, otherwise we end up as a bunch of very happy but not fully informed buddy's.
I lack the attitude of other people, to attack in more or less vicious ways, intelligent opponents, when they get countered with opposite views. In fact I welcome such opposition with open arms.
Let's proceed.
Your answer indicates to me, that you perhaps did not had the time to read my preceding seismic posts carefully and multiple times to see where the culprit lays in my explanation of the LDEO graphs and theirs. In fact, LDEO gives not much of an explanation to begin with.
They could have done a much better job, knowing in advance that myriads of non-scientificly schooled readers would have an unstoppable desire to know what happened before, while and after these WTC towers collapsed.
I proposed and (imhop) proved conclusively, related to the first NIST link you were so kind to present me earlier on, that the +0.0s starting points of the LDEO graphs were 17 sec. (+/- 2seconds) in advance of the visually (or photographic/video) recorded first signs of collapse of all 3 WTC towers. However, caused by the unexplained discrepancy of the event-starting times above said graphs, and the times mentioned in them, a totally unnescessairy confusion was planted in the readers minds by the author(s) of these graphs.
All of these boxed-in times were off by a range of 1 to 7 seconds to the above-graph times. What for?
I see this btw every day when I read US and EU patents, a load of them are a classic example of disinformation techniques.
Let's not talk at all of the nescessity of the bulk of them, lots of them are laughing stock champions.
All these points on the graphs were explained already in my preceeding posts, and steered your attention to the huge precollapse peaks, in case of the WTC 7 collapse, even bigger than the actual collapse seismic signals. The actual arrival times points of seismic collapse signals on the graphs you can compute regarding visual times in New York of the actual events from many websites and the LDEO times (compensated to the above-graph mentioned LDEO-times) .
In this thread we both shall hold on for the time being to actual event times from NIST reports, since these seem to be an effort to be as scientific as can be.
So, I don't see the need to repeat myself into infinity.
Please re-read my posts, which cost me an awfull lot of reading and writing, and then be so kind to at least ask me specific questions regarding these posts.
Nothing stops you however to also include evidence in your posts which could convince me that I am wrong in my assumptions. But please keep them grouped at the post-end so we don't confuse the audience.
Pay specificly attention to my remarks in bold text in my Post Number: 1780509 (post id: 1802402) :
and the -fact- that in the WTC 7 graph, the biggest peak-signals appear before the 23s position (visual chart-point of first sign of collapse, NIST report, the penthouse dent).
Which is VERY strange indeed, aint't it?
And Howard, I understand your confusion when you read my explanations. There were at least 4 times that I thought myself, that I was dead wrong with my interpretation of these graphs, but now, I'm 100% sure that I'm dead-right.
I will do my utterly best to get these blown-up graphs from WTC 1 and 2 collapses on-line, compared to the 0-10 nm/sec plotted graph of the WTC 7 collapse, as soon as possible, in such a way that we don't have to be afraid that these links of my graphs will disappear from external sites, in the near future, as I saw it happen so many times.
I will include visual actual time points, and seismic arrival timepoints of LDEO data.
I will now study Howard's links, at least the ones new to me, which is not dr. Kim's one, I know that one by heart now.
Then I will comment on them.
A solid research needs time.
--------------------------------------Engine 33
As a closing point, Howard, could we both agree now, after my second last post, that the chance that Engine's 33 personnel were alive after the last collapse of the two big WTC towers is not zero, and has a fairly high probability?
That however doesn't conclusively prove that Kevin Pfiefer was not killed in the WTC 1 collapse, the person reporting back to that FDNY command post could have forgotten it, or did not miss him yet, after that unforgettable event.
But I myself am quite sure that Chief Pfiefer did not misspoke or was misquoted in that FDNY website interview.
It has been re-editted several times, as you can see on top of that page, and with www.archive.org .
Which means that just before collapse of WTC 7, there were a surprising amount of people running around in that building.
-------------------------------------Explosion muffling blankets
To Jedi_Master, who asked about explosion muffling techniques:
Note that all three tower basements had been flooded with water. Rings a bell?
Super-thermite charges do there job just as well submerged, and the sound of shifting-charges, to knock columns off position, are VERY much muffled by a large body of water. And lessen the seismic effects of them.
I do not condone the linking of detonation muffling techniques to the public, since vicious non-nation-supported terrorists would be the laughing second party. The terrorists trained and paid for by the US and other agencies don't need my help, they know these techniques very well, teached by their puppeteering masters.
You can do a search yourself, and will find them in books or in public weaponry forums. The one I found links in was btw removed from the Internet last year. It was for many years the by far biggest one.
First sign of eroding of the open-source Internet as we knew it from the beginning.
Let me add to it, that I appreciate that a person like you reacts also on my postings, because it has not much sense to start a discussion with likeminded souls. That ends most of the time with a lot of "yes, didn't I tell you so's".
These forums need people like you, who keep the controversion alive, otherwise we end up as a bunch of very happy but not fully informed buddy's.
I lack the attitude of other people, to attack in more or less vicious ways, intelligent opponents, when they get countered with opposite views. In fact I welcome such opposition with open arms.
Let's proceed.
Your answer indicates to me, that you perhaps did not had the time to read my preceding seismic posts carefully and multiple times to see where the culprit lays in my explanation of the LDEO graphs and theirs. In fact, LDEO gives not much of an explanation to begin with.
They could have done a much better job, knowing in advance that myriads of non-scientificly schooled readers would have an unstoppable desire to know what happened before, while and after these WTC towers collapsed.
I proposed and (imhop) proved conclusively, related to the first NIST link you were so kind to present me earlier on, that the +0.0s starting points of the LDEO graphs were 17 sec. (+/- 2seconds) in advance of the visually (or photographic/video) recorded first signs of collapse of all 3 WTC towers. However, caused by the unexplained discrepancy of the event-starting times above said graphs, and the times mentioned in them, a totally unnescessairy confusion was planted in the readers minds by the author(s) of these graphs.
All of these boxed-in times were off by a range of 1 to 7 seconds to the above-graph times. What for?
I see this btw every day when I read US and EU patents, a load of them are a classic example of disinformation techniques.
Let's not talk at all of the nescessity of the bulk of them, lots of them are laughing stock champions.
All these points on the graphs were explained already in my preceeding posts, and steered your attention to the huge precollapse peaks, in case of the WTC 7 collapse, even bigger than the actual collapse seismic signals. The actual arrival times points of seismic collapse signals on the graphs you can compute regarding visual times in New York of the actual events from many websites and the LDEO times (compensated to the above-graph mentioned LDEO-times) .
In this thread we both shall hold on for the time being to actual event times from NIST reports, since these seem to be an effort to be as scientific as can be.
So, I don't see the need to repeat myself into infinity.
Please re-read my posts, which cost me an awfull lot of reading and writing, and then be so kind to at least ask me specific questions regarding these posts.
Nothing stops you however to also include evidence in your posts which could convince me that I am wrong in my assumptions. But please keep them grouped at the post-end so we don't confuse the audience.
Pay specificly attention to my remarks in bold text in my Post Number: 1780509 (post id: 1802402) :
However, if we saw here the effect of bearing columns snap, we should expect that the resulting vibrational force on the bedrock would be MUCH bigger for the 110 stories high collumns of WTC 1 and 2 snapping, than for the 44 stories high collumns in the WTC 7 building snapping.
Perhaps as big as 3 times more.
However, the (edit now seismic effects on the bedrock are nearly identical.......
Tell me, how to explain that observation.
and the -fact- that in the WTC 7 graph, the biggest peak-signals appear before the 23s position (visual chart-point of first sign of collapse, NIST report, the penthouse dent).
Which is VERY strange indeed, aint't it?
And Howard, I understand your confusion when you read my explanations. There were at least 4 times that I thought myself, that I was dead wrong with my interpretation of these graphs, but now, I'm 100% sure that I'm dead-right.
I will do my utterly best to get these blown-up graphs from WTC 1 and 2 collapses on-line, compared to the 0-10 nm/sec plotted graph of the WTC 7 collapse, as soon as possible, in such a way that we don't have to be afraid that these links of my graphs will disappear from external sites, in the near future, as I saw it happen so many times.
I will include visual actual time points, and seismic arrival timepoints of LDEO data.
I will now study Howard's links, at least the ones new to me, which is not dr. Kim's one, I know that one by heart now.
Then I will comment on them.
A solid research needs time.
--------------------------------------Engine 33
As a closing point, Howard, could we both agree now, after my second last post, that the chance that Engine's 33 personnel were alive after the last collapse of the two big WTC towers is not zero, and has a fairly high probability?
That however doesn't conclusively prove that Kevin Pfiefer was not killed in the WTC 1 collapse, the person reporting back to that FDNY command post could have forgotten it, or did not miss him yet, after that unforgettable event.
But I myself am quite sure that Chief Pfiefer did not misspoke or was misquoted in that FDNY website interview.
It has been re-editted several times, as you can see on top of that page, and with www.archive.org .
Which means that just before collapse of WTC 7, there were a surprising amount of people running around in that building.
-------------------------------------Explosion muffling blankets
To Jedi_Master, who asked about explosion muffling techniques:
Note that all three tower basements had been flooded with water. Rings a bell?
Super-thermite charges do there job just as well submerged, and the sound of shifting-charges, to knock columns off position, are VERY much muffled by a large body of water. And lessen the seismic effects of them.
I do not condone the linking of detonation muffling techniques to the public, since vicious non-nation-supported terrorists would be the laughing second party. The terrorists trained and paid for by the US and other agencies don't need my help, they know these techniques very well, teached by their puppeteering masters.
You can do a search yourself, and will find them in books or in public weaponry forums. The one I found links in was btw removed from the Internet last year. It was for many years the by far biggest one.
First sign of eroding of the open-source Internet as we knew it from the beginning.
NOTE : there are a lot more seismic graphs remarks of me in the only other thread I post in (2 pages) :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Read especially this Post Number: 1753437 (post id: 1775330)
For the sake of understanding for shortspan-attention impaired members, here is a list of the main points of my seismic findings :
01. - All 3 collapse signals are preceeded by relatively big seismic signals, all nearly identical in magnitude and form.
These are all much bigger than their preceeding background seismic noise signals.
02. - The preceeding seismic signals of the WTC 7 collapse are much bigger than the actual collapse seismic signals of it's total building mass.
03. - One should expect, if these 3 preceeding seismic signals are a sign of core columns snapping, that the pair of WTC 1 and 2 preceeding signals would be much bigger than the WTC 7 signals. They are however all 3 identical.
04. - It appears to me, see Post Number: 1753437 (post id: 1775330), that seismic signals can't be used as conclusive evidence of yes or no - proof of explosives. (Because the same government who asked this forensic expert to find the time and type of explosion in the Kenya US-Embassy bombing, kept away from him evidence that the Oklahoma Murrah building was blown up by FIVE bombs instead of ONE truck bomb. But this researcher concluded that ONE bomb was used. Do we have to conclude then that the scientist bows for the government and offer them what they want to be published? I don't know for sure, but it surely looks like it).
However, these 3 preceeding seismic signals of the 3 WTC towers are identical and of the same magnitude, while the damage to core columns are definitely very different for ALL 3 buildings. And the post impact fires were also very different, so their impact on steel trusses and collumns was also very different, however, all 3 buildings fell nearly identical, as if we watched a controlled demolition show-off.
WTC 1 was hit straight in the center of the core-collumn packet ; WTC 2 was only strived on the right side of the core-collumn packet, and WTC 7 was only hit by debris in the southwest corner and in the southwest center. No roof damage was seen.
Only collumns 78 to 81 could perhaps have been hit by falling burning debris in WTC 7. Since the wind was north that day, fires would have been pushed by wind through the floors of WTC 7 to the north side, accumulating the burning effect of office materials. I do however not believe that that could have led to substantial weekening of ALL core collumns, and causing that beautifully sinking of the building in it's own footprint. It would have knicked to the South side of the building, and toppling over towards WTC 6. It did not. Something else snapped all WTC 7 core-collumns.
05. - There are many more strange events mentioned in those 2 threads, please read.
I only post in 2 threads for now, to keep me focussed on one task. With some sidesteps now and then. Sorry for that.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Read especially this Post Number: 1753437 (post id: 1775330)
For the sake of understanding for shortspan-attention impaired members, here is a list of the main points of my seismic findings :
01. - All 3 collapse signals are preceeded by relatively big seismic signals, all nearly identical in magnitude and form.
These are all much bigger than their preceeding background seismic noise signals.
02. - The preceeding seismic signals of the WTC 7 collapse are much bigger than the actual collapse seismic signals of it's total building mass.
03. - One should expect, if these 3 preceeding seismic signals are a sign of core columns snapping, that the pair of WTC 1 and 2 preceeding signals would be much bigger than the WTC 7 signals. They are however all 3 identical.
04. - It appears to me, see Post Number: 1753437 (post id: 1775330), that seismic signals can't be used as conclusive evidence of yes or no - proof of explosives. (Because the same government who asked this forensic expert to find the time and type of explosion in the Kenya US-Embassy bombing, kept away from him evidence that the Oklahoma Murrah building was blown up by FIVE bombs instead of ONE truck bomb. But this researcher concluded that ONE bomb was used. Do we have to conclude then that the scientist bows for the government and offer them what they want to be published? I don't know for sure, but it surely looks like it).
However, these 3 preceeding seismic signals of the 3 WTC towers are identical and of the same magnitude, while the damage to core columns are definitely very different for ALL 3 buildings. And the post impact fires were also very different, so their impact on steel trusses and collumns was also very different, however, all 3 buildings fell nearly identical, as if we watched a controlled demolition show-off.
WTC 1 was hit straight in the center of the core-collumn packet ; WTC 2 was only strived on the right side of the core-collumn packet, and WTC 7 was only hit by debris in the southwest corner and in the southwest center. No roof damage was seen.
Only collumns 78 to 81 could perhaps have been hit by falling burning debris in WTC 7. Since the wind was north that day, fires would have been pushed by wind through the floors of WTC 7 to the north side, accumulating the burning effect of office materials. I do however not believe that that could have led to substantial weekening of ALL core collumns, and causing that beautifully sinking of the building in it's own footprint. It would have knicked to the South side of the building, and toppling over towards WTC 6. It did not. Something else snapped all WTC 7 core-collumns.
05. - There are many more strange events mentioned in those 2 threads, please read.
I only post in 2 threads for now, to keep me focussed on one task. With some sidesteps now and then. Sorry for that.
My appologies to that brave hero from 9/11, William Rodriguez, which is labeled in my above post as of Venezuelan descent.
William Rodriguez, is a native of Puerto Rico, a citizen of the United States, and a resident of the State of New Jersey. On September 11, 2001, and for approximately nineteen years prior thereto, Rodriguez was employed as a maintenance worker at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York, New York.
www.911forthetruth.com...
cinemar.com...
He also appeared in some long videos of Jimmy Walters (from www.reopen9... ) tour through Europe, to convince people that there was something seriously wrong with the official explanation of 9/11. In that video he explains to the audience, how he heard and felt multiple bombs go off in the basements, and helped his coworkers escape from the deepest ones. Ofcourse others will say that it were the jetfuel explosions in the elevator shafts. I have addressed that in my "The Complete 9/11 Timeline (interactive)" thread lately.
I now saw this video of him appearing at a 2004 NIST hearing, where he explains something about a fireball coming down a service elevator shaft from the 58th floor. It is difficult to understand, the audio is bad, but what I think I understand of it, he said that "it was explained to him" that a fireball came down. Is he backing down now from his furious statements in that European Tour video?(I have all the tapes) As said before, his voice is barely audible most of the time, did I hear that right about that fireball?
I also still have to answer Howard Roark on the topic of the explosions on 9/11, those at WTC 7 he thinks nobody mentioned or nobody heard. ( posted on 1/11/05 at 21:05 Post Number: 1780533 (post id: 1802426)
I have not yet found eyewitness reports of the WTC 7 collapse spectators who did hear explosions there. I do not expect them to be easily found at all, since everybody was kept away at a really big distance from that building, and demolition planners had had all day to get informed, that reports of explosions at the WTC 1 and 2 towers were all over the newschannels. So, that's why they decided to herd people away from WTC 7, since that building HAD to be destroyed, with all that evidence stored in OEM's databases, and not to forget, all those too damning files from other federal tenants they really wanted to see destroyed in a convenient and easy explainable way :
EDIT : I have found one reporter explaining that every fifteen or twenty minutes smaller secondary explosions were going off at WTC 7 and WTC 5. An extremely dangerous place to be, he said at the end.
terrorize.dk...
(... The firemen were concerned that WTC 7 was going to collapse, building nr 5 was in danger of collapse... You hear smaller secondary explosions going off every fifteen or twenty minutes...)
www.grandtheftcountry.com...
The IRS is the Internal Revenue Service, the tax people. How many damning tax files from how many corporations were destroyed?
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). The collapse of Building 7 destroyed thousands of SEC case files, on companies such as WorldCom.
After a quick search on that above site, I have however found that they offer many -explosions- ear-and-eyewitness reports, people who got interviewed right after they say explosions at WTC 1 and 2 occured, just after they barely escaped the WTC 1 and 2 collapses, and it are very convincing videos with good audio :
01. - www.grandtheftcountry.com... All the talk about explosions in the WTC towers.
02. - www.911blimp.net...
...secondary explosions and then the subsequent collapses....
03. - terrorize.dk...
...The explosion blew me right over... And then he goes on telling about many explosions in both towers.
04. - terrorize.dk...
...At ten thirty I tried to get out of the building, but as soon as I get out, I heard a second explosion, and another rumble, and more smoke, and more dust, and then a firemarshall came in and said if there was a third explosion, this building might not last...
05. - terrorize.dk...
...there was a secondary device going of, and another explosion, and the chief, he thinks there were actually other devices that were planted in the building...
06. - terrorize.dk...
...It just went Booom, like a bomb went off [...] and we made it to the mezzanine, and another explosion...WHOOOM..right in front of me,whoooom...
07. - terrorize.dk...
...I was standing beside 1 World Trade Center and then I heard rumbling and we all started running, the glass that blew out and threw me on to the sidewalk, I couldn't see for 20 seconds, and then...
08. - terrorize.dk...
...as we made our way to the stairway,..there was a heavy duty explosion...
09. - terrorize.dk...
...When I was 5 blocks away, I heard explosions, 3 thuds, and turned around to see the building we just got out of...it kind of tipped over and folded in itself...
10. - terrorize.dk...
...We finally get to the lobby, ...and when we got to the lobby, there was this big explosion.
11. - terrorize.dk...
... I saw one of the towers blow ... and I saw from street level, I saw it exploded up, a giant rolling ball, a flame ...
12. - terrorize.dk...
...45 minutes into the taping that we were doing, there was, an explosion, it was way up where the fire was..and the whole building at that point bellied out, in flames, and everybody ran...
13. - terrorize.dk...
...All the sudden, it started like, it sounded like gunfire, you know, pangpangpang.pangpangpang, and then it was, it was sudden,,,three BIG explosions!...
14. - terrorize.dk...
... We went down from the 23rd floor...We made it to the eighth...BIG explosion...flew us back into the eigth floor..
15. - terrorize.dk...
...The explosion blew and knocked everybody over...
16. - terrorize.dk...
We just heard another explosion [...] it's to unsafe to go in there...
17. - terrorize.dk... (CNN censored the word explosion out!)
... there was just a huge ... [censored] and enormous pieces of debris is falling - one right after the other...
18. - terrorize.dk... (The uncensored real-time part!)
[...] and every few minutes you'll hear it like a small sort of a a rumbling sound, almost like an explosion sound and another chunk of it will come flying down into the street...
19. - terrorize.dk...
Full interview with Rose Arce; CNN Producer on 911, broadcasted about 4 hours after the demolition af WTC-1. Again the word explosion censored out. CNN obviously got ordered to get those damning remarks out asap, the same day already.
The Administration was really rallying at topspeed to surpress all, unsafe for them, evidence.
20. - terrorize.dk...
... And the bottom of that building was going out...
21. - terrorize.dk...
...It was just this incredible force of wind and debris that came actually UP the stairs, knocked my helmet off, knocked me to the ground...
Howard, I have read your remarks in other threads, that you also are not aware of convincing reports of explosions at the WTC 1 and 2 towers.
Are at least in your mind now, some or most of these videos in fact very convincing, that these people heard and experienced loud, big, huge explosions?
And that they were no jetfuel explosions in shafts just after impact, but most of them explosions with high velocity pressure blast fronts which knocked them off their feet, when they were long after impact trying to get out or were just out.
Any pressure from collapsing "pancaking" building floors would escape immediately up, where the least compression resistance was, there where huge open spaces were created by those broken floors. And eventual downward pressure would not behave like high velocity pressure blast fronts, compressed air from pancaking floors will behave very different from explosively compressed air.
Still any doubts left?
William Rodriguez, is a native of Puerto Rico, a citizen of the United States, and a resident of the State of New Jersey. On September 11, 2001, and for approximately nineteen years prior thereto, Rodriguez was employed as a maintenance worker at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York, New York.
www.911forthetruth.com...
cinemar.com...
“The Keymaster” is the story of William Rodriguez – a courageous man who helped hundreds of people with one key. A skilled illusionist and escape artist in Puerto Rico, William came to America to seek his fame, but never imagined that it would happen the way it did.
On September 11th, William had the only available master key to the North Tower staircase in the World Trade Center. He was the janitor in charge of cleaning the stairs. From the moment the first plane hit the building, he acted as a hero, guiding rescue workers and single-handedly saving 15 lives. He was the last person to escape as the building collapsed.
This is where the real story of heroism begins. William continues every day to champion for the rights of 9/11 immigrant survivors. He does this while unemployed and even homeless. As his own life collapses around him, he struggles to save himself and continue his mission.
He also appeared in some long videos of Jimmy Walters (from www.reopen9... ) tour through Europe, to convince people that there was something seriously wrong with the official explanation of 9/11. In that video he explains to the audience, how he heard and felt multiple bombs go off in the basements, and helped his coworkers escape from the deepest ones. Ofcourse others will say that it were the jetfuel explosions in the elevator shafts. I have addressed that in my "The Complete 9/11 Timeline (interactive)" thread lately.
I now saw this video of him appearing at a 2004 NIST hearing, where he explains something about a fireball coming down a service elevator shaft from the 58th floor. It is difficult to understand, the audio is bad, but what I think I understand of it, he said that "it was explained to him" that a fireball came down. Is he backing down now from his furious statements in that European Tour video?(I have all the tapes) As said before, his voice is barely audible most of the time, did I hear that right about that fireball?
I also still have to answer Howard Roark on the topic of the explosions on 9/11, those at WTC 7 he thinks nobody mentioned or nobody heard. ( posted on 1/11/05 at 21:05 Post Number: 1780533 (post id: 1802426)
I have not yet found eyewitness reports of the WTC 7 collapse spectators who did hear explosions there. I do not expect them to be easily found at all, since everybody was kept away at a really big distance from that building, and demolition planners had had all day to get informed, that reports of explosions at the WTC 1 and 2 towers were all over the newschannels. So, that's why they decided to herd people away from WTC 7, since that building HAD to be destroyed, with all that evidence stored in OEM's databases, and not to forget, all those too damning files from other federal tenants they really wanted to see destroyed in a convenient and easy explainable way :
EDIT : I have found one reporter explaining that every fifteen or twenty minutes smaller secondary explosions were going off at WTC 7 and WTC 5. An extremely dangerous place to be, he said at the end.
terrorize.dk...
(... The firemen were concerned that WTC 7 was going to collapse, building nr 5 was in danger of collapse... You hear smaller secondary explosions going off every fifteen or twenty minutes...)
www.grandtheftcountry.com...
Firefighters and press in the area were told to "get back" because they were going to "pull-it". "Pulling" a building means taking it down with strategically placed demolition charges at the inner support columns so that the building falls in on its own "footprint" as to not damage the other structures in the vicinity. It was a classic bottom-up implosion. You can actually see the demolition charges running up the top 6 floors.(click the same underlined _javascript link on the site)
Building 7 played host to then Mayor Rudy Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management command center, with the 23rd floor built in 1998 as a "bunker" with bullet and bomb-resistant windows, its own water and air supply, the ability to withstand 160mph winds, and a full commanding view of the entire WTC complex. Interestingly, on 9/11 Giuliani didn't bother to put the center to use (even though that's what it was built for) and decided to instead set up a makeshift command center down the street. Seven also served as the command center for the security of the entire WTC complex, which was headed by the President's brother, Marvin Bush, whose contract ended "coincidentally" on 9/11. WTC7's other tentants included the IRS, CIA, Secret Service, FBI, Department of Defense, and the SEC. It has been reported that several banks involved in sending money to the 9/11 hijackers had their offices there, and important files pertaining to the Enron investigation were stored there as well.
The IRS is the Internal Revenue Service, the tax people. How many damning tax files from how many corporations were destroyed?
Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). The collapse of Building 7 destroyed thousands of SEC case files, on companies such as WorldCom.
After a quick search on that above site, I have however found that they offer many -explosions- ear-and-eyewitness reports, people who got interviewed right after they say explosions at WTC 1 and 2 occured, just after they barely escaped the WTC 1 and 2 collapses, and it are very convincing videos with good audio :
01. - www.grandtheftcountry.com... All the talk about explosions in the WTC towers.
02. - www.911blimp.net...
...secondary explosions and then the subsequent collapses....
03. - terrorize.dk...
...The explosion blew me right over... And then he goes on telling about many explosions in both towers.
04. - terrorize.dk...
...At ten thirty I tried to get out of the building, but as soon as I get out, I heard a second explosion, and another rumble, and more smoke, and more dust, and then a firemarshall came in and said if there was a third explosion, this building might not last...
05. - terrorize.dk...
...there was a secondary device going of, and another explosion, and the chief, he thinks there were actually other devices that were planted in the building...
06. - terrorize.dk...
...It just went Booom, like a bomb went off [...] and we made it to the mezzanine, and another explosion...WHOOOM..right in front of me,whoooom...
07. - terrorize.dk...
...I was standing beside 1 World Trade Center and then I heard rumbling and we all started running, the glass that blew out and threw me on to the sidewalk, I couldn't see for 20 seconds, and then...
08. - terrorize.dk...
...as we made our way to the stairway,..there was a heavy duty explosion...
09. - terrorize.dk...
...When I was 5 blocks away, I heard explosions, 3 thuds, and turned around to see the building we just got out of...it kind of tipped over and folded in itself...
10. - terrorize.dk...
...We finally get to the lobby, ...and when we got to the lobby, there was this big explosion.
11. - terrorize.dk...
... I saw one of the towers blow ... and I saw from street level, I saw it exploded up, a giant rolling ball, a flame ...
12. - terrorize.dk...
...45 minutes into the taping that we were doing, there was, an explosion, it was way up where the fire was..and the whole building at that point bellied out, in flames, and everybody ran...
13. - terrorize.dk...
...All the sudden, it started like, it sounded like gunfire, you know, pangpangpang.pangpangpang, and then it was, it was sudden,,,three BIG explosions!...
14. - terrorize.dk...
... We went down from the 23rd floor...We made it to the eighth...BIG explosion...flew us back into the eigth floor..
15. - terrorize.dk...
...The explosion blew and knocked everybody over...
16. - terrorize.dk...
We just heard another explosion [...] it's to unsafe to go in there...
17. - terrorize.dk... (CNN censored the word explosion out!)
... there was just a huge ... [censored] and enormous pieces of debris is falling - one right after the other...
18. - terrorize.dk... (The uncensored real-time part!)
[...] and every few minutes you'll hear it like a small sort of a a rumbling sound, almost like an explosion sound and another chunk of it will come flying down into the street...
19. - terrorize.dk...
Full interview with Rose Arce; CNN Producer on 911, broadcasted about 4 hours after the demolition af WTC-1. Again the word explosion censored out. CNN obviously got ordered to get those damning remarks out asap, the same day already.
The Administration was really rallying at topspeed to surpress all, unsafe for them, evidence.
20. - terrorize.dk...
... And the bottom of that building was going out...
21. - terrorize.dk...
...It was just this incredible force of wind and debris that came actually UP the stairs, knocked my helmet off, knocked me to the ground...
Howard, I have read your remarks in other threads, that you also are not aware of convincing reports of explosions at the WTC 1 and 2 towers.
Are at least in your mind now, some or most of these videos in fact very convincing, that these people heard and experienced loud, big, huge explosions?
And that they were no jetfuel explosions in shafts just after impact, but most of them explosions with high velocity pressure blast fronts which knocked them off their feet, when they were long after impact trying to get out or were just out.
Any pressure from collapsing "pancaking" building floors would escape immediately up, where the least compression resistance was, there where huge open spaces were created by those broken floors. And eventual downward pressure would not behave like high velocity pressure blast fronts, compressed air from pancaking floors will behave very different from explosively compressed air.
Still any doubts left?
Originally posted by LaBTop
...
I could try to upload them to a free server, which allow pics to stay forever.
Don't know if these excist, however. So again, anybody having a helpfull day?
[edit on 3/11/05 by LaBTop]
perhaps a bit late, but i'm unfortunately constrained somewhat and have to select my 'active' threads
anyway:
www.theimagehosting.com...
will probably suit your needs..although you probably know about the site from the other (pentagon) thread.
[edit on 25-11-2005 by Long Lance]
but I already decided for imageshack. (as can be seen somewhere, where I posted my picture of burning thermite on spire parts tumbling down in a WTC
tower collapse.)
Anyway, I still owe HowardRoark an answer on his precollapse vibration theory.
Well, I think he knew fully well, that these 2 links were explaining, that researchers had observed tiny stress-vibrations in the steel structure of low level buildings, just before collapse.
They however did not measure these vibrations with SEISMIC recorders, but with signals coming from glued-on devices, which determine VERY small vibrations, not seismic vibrations.
We talk here in the order of millions times smaller signals.
I refer here to part of his post :
Howard, your own insertion of the term "seismic" in this sentence :
"studies of the seismic signals of building structures" ,
is misleading.
It should have been "stress signals".
Anyway, I still owe HowardRoark an answer on his precollapse vibration theory.
Well, I think he knew fully well, that these 2 links were explaining, that researchers had observed tiny stress-vibrations in the steel structure of low level buildings, just before collapse.
They however did not measure these vibrations with SEISMIC recorders, but with signals coming from glued-on devices, which determine VERY small vibrations, not seismic vibrations.
We talk here in the order of millions times smaller signals.
I refer here to part of his post :
One interesting note, however. If you notice, there does appear to be a small, rhythmic vibration that occurs just before the collapse. There have been studies of the seismic signals of building structures just before they collapse in fires.
fire.nist.gov...
www.usfa.fema.gov...
www.fire.gov...
Those studies involved small single story structures. Yet they did determine that there were measurable vibrations just prior to the collapse.
Howard, your own insertion of the term "seismic" in this sentence :
"studies of the seismic signals of building structures" ,
is misleading.
It should have been "stress signals".
Popular Mechanics just posted that without doing any research, Rove probably gave them the story to print. Proof: Look at the "Fact" about tower 7,
everyone here knows it was pulled because the owner told us so on video. That is even known by the most conservative members on this forum, the
firemen pulled it because they thought it was safer that way.
Larry Silverstein never admitted, or DENIED, his slip of the tongue.
After consulting his lawyers, when asked about it, he simply said: No comment.
He knew he went on very slippery grounds with that slippy, and didn't want to jepardice his insurance claim fortune.
Which he got btw, around 7 billion $$$, but beware, he must use that to rebuild the whole WTC complex.
But he and the city of New York new mayor are hard working on that problem, the city wants to reclaim his rented property, in that case Silverstein must be indemnified by the city. And then it's cashing time for him.
I'm pretty sure they will come up with some sort of scam, to solve that tiny problem.
Btw, the man is in his eighties, he didn't do it for the money perhaps, but for the sheer sport of conning a whole nation, to punish them for the Holocaust perhaps?
The Allies in WW II neglected the killing of millions of Jews, they didn't want to get flooded with east and west european Jews, that was their reason, unearthed by historians after the war.
They could have easily bombed the railroads to the Nazi deathcamps, but they didn't!
There will be lots of Jews with a very deep hatred against Britain and the USA, for that criminal neglicence.
And guess what, who are the prime bank owners all over the world: people of Jewish descent.
And the top ten immensely rich families, such as the Rothshilds and Rockefellers, the oil robber-barons : jewish.
And they are the main movers behind the global political curtains.
Is it such an outlandish thought to think they were punishing the western allies at last for what they did to their tribe, on 9/11 ?
Hatred can smolder for generations.
After consulting his lawyers, when asked about it, he simply said: No comment.
He knew he went on very slippery grounds with that slippy, and didn't want to jepardice his insurance claim fortune.
Which he got btw, around 7 billion $$$, but beware, he must use that to rebuild the whole WTC complex.
But he and the city of New York new mayor are hard working on that problem, the city wants to reclaim his rented property, in that case Silverstein must be indemnified by the city. And then it's cashing time for him.
I'm pretty sure they will come up with some sort of scam, to solve that tiny problem.
Btw, the man is in his eighties, he didn't do it for the money perhaps, but for the sheer sport of conning a whole nation, to punish them for the Holocaust perhaps?
The Allies in WW II neglected the killing of millions of Jews, they didn't want to get flooded with east and west european Jews, that was their reason, unearthed by historians after the war.
They could have easily bombed the railroads to the Nazi deathcamps, but they didn't!
There will be lots of Jews with a very deep hatred against Britain and the USA, for that criminal neglicence.
And guess what, who are the prime bank owners all over the world: people of Jewish descent.
And the top ten immensely rich families, such as the Rothshilds and Rockefellers, the oil robber-barons : jewish.
And they are the main movers behind the global political curtains.
Is it such an outlandish thought to think they were punishing the western allies at last for what they did to their tribe, on 9/11 ?
Hatred can smolder for generations.
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