I'm sure this has been said before....

If one of the reasons for the war is also to stem terrorism, the continued and escalating violence that appears to have much to do with terrorist tactics appears to be showing that this reason has failed.

Of course. Violence only spawns more violence. I grew up with terrorism and one thing I know about it is you cant fight terrorism with terrorism. Its like saying "lets fight fire with fire", the house is on fire so you pick up a flame thrower and torch the place. The more you attack them the more violent they become. Its a vicious circle, when one side attacks it only fuels and strengthens the other side. If the U.S. really wants to put an end to terrorism they have to declare peace. You cant have peace by declaring war.

It takes a real man to lay down the weapons and shake hands with the enemy. Only when everybody gains this mentality will there be peace.

[edit on 27-9-2005 by drinkinlikeafish]

Originally posted by Liberal1984

Sorry for the misunderstanding; Alex.

Not a problem No offence taken.

No its not... your over there because ur leader told u he had WMD and was a threat.

Exactly, well put Agit8dChop.

Gee, I seem to have opened Pandora's box.

I understand that starting the war under false reasons (WMD) wasn't right.
When people join the army, they know of the risk that they'll get killed in combat. Some of the deaths weren't even combat related. I don't have a source to prove this (yet) but aren't most of the marines and soldiers serving in Iraq happy to do it for America? And in wars, people die.

I'm trying not to sound hostile here.

This is particularly for "rstrik" and "army".
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have made an effort to back up the pro Iraq things I said in my main post with lots of Internet research. I was waiting to smash somebody's view of reality and just hope i will succeed.
Rstrik if you support the war in Iraq it is worth rethinking just under whose rule we would be "speaking German and thinking English". Also if in future you have a problem with something I post please specify what it is you question-disagree with that I’ve said. This would make things a lot clearer than just quoting everything I have said.

This is particularly for "rstrik" and "army".

Hey I came at you with a list of sources that say otherwise why does it jsut have to be for them

I will give you credit for backing your stuff up. Most people would just leave it.

I would however like to question some of your sources. CommonDreams...interesting little news piece a little WAY left I would say
SocialistAction...mmmmmmmmmm
Bob Ellis...Who??? I think he does shoes Bob Ellis

Now your two most crediable sources
Seattletimes...but the story comes out of an opinnion blog.
and my favorite
China...rriiiiiggghhhttt

In my post earlier on this thread some of my sources included

Businessweek
Reference.com ( an encyclopedia)
CNN
answer.com ( use columbia electronic encyclopedia)

I guess it becomes a which sources do you trust the most.

I understand that starting the war under false reasons (WMD) wasn't right.

Why is this such a minute point?! This should be a major thing, war is a major thing. A war shouldn't be seen as some kind of casual option, should it not be the last resort?!

People's lives on both sides are seriously at stake, shouldn't one, if they find that war is the last resort, make sure that their facts are straight before they engage in war? To be absolutely sure that they're not putting their soldiers and other's at risk unecessarily.

I can't understand how people aren't more outraged by this. The people were hustled, the administration conned everyone into this war and made them like it too.

Originally posted by Ponderosa

No its not... your over there because ur leader told u he had WMD and was a threat.

Exactly, well put Agit8dChop.

as i returned from the states in a recent leave i walked to the bench to wait for the convoy that would take me to the base. as i walked up i saw a man sitting with tears in his eyes waiting for the plane to take him back to america. i asked why he cried and he looked at me and told his story. he began by telling me of when he first joined up. that he had been critisised so much that he became bitter. while he was fighting in iraq he had hated bush, hated the war and couldnt wait to get home. then his eyes faded and he began to tell me how his seargent had noticed his bitterness and had asked him about it. and he had began to tell him why were they over here fighting someones elses war? he had read many letters critizing the govt. and he had lost spirit. the seargent said, why dont you go on the evening patrol. he asked why and the seargent responded just do as your ordered and pay close attention. so he told me how they had walked down the street that evening and he had noticed the children playing in the streets. he heard the laughter and asked himself is this what the sargent wants me to see? had the noises of war drowned out this part of the country? was he so used to the exsplosions, the yells, the screams, gunshots that his ears drowned this out? he than began to cry uncontrollably and i sat down and waited not wanting to disturb him. when he was done he looked up and said," sir the reason im crying is cuz i dont want to leave, i dont want to leave my buddies, i dont want to leave thinking that the moment i leave they get shot cuz i wasnt there." i told him i knew how he felt for i had felt the same. and he continued his story, as they walked down the street gunfire had suddenly errupted and he immediatly hit the dirt. the laughter turned to screams, the joy turned to pain, he was sobbing and i couldnt understand why if we as marines had gone through this lots of times, and he said, "we had to take it, we had to watch our buddies get shot, we had to, the children had been caught in the crossfire, and we couldnt shoot back in fear of hitting them, so we had to watch the insurgents shoot the living hell out of us, and we had to take it, but the worst part was,there wasnt laughter on that street anymore, the kids were dead." at this moment tears filled my eyes and i understood why were over here. who could justify those actions? he looked up and said" from that day on i fought with everything i had, i fought until i could not go to sleep from exhaustion, becuase that day i had witnessed why were over here, because that day i became a true marine"

maybe thats why were over here, so one day there could be laughter on that street.

Wow, that sob story has completely justified the war for me, thankyou Danie.

I now see how wrong I was,

Even tho the president told the world the WMD's were there, but trned out to be lies... it doesnt matter.
Even tho the president told the world Iraq was grave threat, that turned out to be lies too... it doesnt matter.

As long as you marines get to shoot them iraqi's , to bring PEACE to iraq.. is all that matters...
It doesnt matter your the ones who created this conflict which your now trying to end with bullets... no that doesnt matter.

i dont see you doing anything to protect those iraqi kids, if so please tell us what youre doing and hows its helping.

Simple, im not bombing them, im not shooting at them, im not driving around at them screaming and shooting them. Im not abusing them in prisons, im not doing any of the above while i smile for the camera and say that I dont give a hoot all my evidence and reasoning for invading has been proven a lie, because im here to stay

Thats what im doing.
You yanks created this sh1t hole, they were far better off BEFORE you got there. Sure saddam was bad, but only if u wronged him, or went against him.

With the americans, they'll shoot you and leave u in the streeets to get eaten by dogs.

Youve invaded and occupied a country. Youve done enough to ensure the western worlds are hated.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Simple, im not bombing them, im not shooting at them, im not driving around at them screaming and shooting them. Im not abusing them in prisons, im not doing any of the above while i smile for the camera and say that I dont give a hoot all my evidence and reasoning for invading has been proven a lie, because im here to stay

Thats what im doing.
You yanks created this sh1t hole, they were far better off BEFORE you got there. Sure saddam was bad, but only if u wronged him, or went against him.

With the americans, they'll shoot you and leave u in the streeets to get eaten by dogs.

Youve invaded and occupied a country. Youve done enough to ensure the western worlds are hated.

yea it seems to me like you wouldnt of done anything and let saddam continue his massacres, its real easy to criticize from the sidelines, but youre not in the game, so enough of what we did wrong, what would you have done?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop


Thats what im doing.
You yanks created this sh1t hole, they were far better off BEFORE you got there. Sure saddam was bad, but only if u wronged him, or went against him.

far better off? depends on which Iraqis. the Sunnis, Shiites or Kurds. i would believe the Shiites and the Kurds pretty much feel better and have their heads higher after the opression, gas attacks, families disappearing, etc.

How many it seem that innocent familes were just disappearing.
Saddam was killing people whom conspired against him, whom were defaiming him or something.

He wasnt just picking people at random and going, yep he'll do torture him.

And even so this ISNT AN EXCUSE to invade and OCCUPY.

These finatical people, need a ruthless LEADER!. He is no differnet from other iron fisted governments..
For the US to single him out and say we are going to stop HIS murderous rain, is simpling idiotic.

They didnt invade to save the people, they invaded to stop the THREAT saddam posed with his STOCKPILE of WMD.
TO CHANGE the reasons AFTER its been revealed this was all lies just goes to show the lengths the US will go to create the illusion that they are correct.

Danie damn right im not doing anything.
Anyone in their rightm ind would see the Illegial actions being taken here.

YOUR LEADER LIED... AND MADE YOU OCCUPY A country on false pretenses.
Just because you believe ur there to save the Iraqi people doesnt make it alright.

You went in to remove the threat not save the people.
If this was baout te gassing, or the murders you would of went in whe nthat was happening..
not years and years later.

Your all so blinded by the same boring babble your president releases..
Democracy, Save the Iraqis RAH RAH RAH, follow me and you will be liberators.
Dont mind the dead bodies, or your friends corpses.. They may not want us here, they may hate us, they may behead us, but we are here to help them.

YEAH RIGHT!
Get your head outta the sand, Danie your over there for christ sake, you should be able to tell fact from fiction by now.. surely you can see for yourself the underlying values of this war?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
How many it seem that innocent familes were just disappearing.
Saddam was killing people whom conspired against him, whom were defaiming him or something.

He wasnt just picking people at random and going, yep he'll do torture him.

And even so this ISNT AN EXCUSE to invade and OCCUPY.

These finatical people, need a ruthless LEADER!. He is no differnet from other iron fisted governments..
For the US to single him out and say we are going to stop HIS murderous rain, is simpling idiotic.

They didnt invade to save the people, they invaded to stop the THREAT saddam posed with his STOCKPILE of WMD.
TO CHANGE the reasons AFTER its been revealed this was all lies just goes to show the lengths the US will go to create the illusion that they are correct.

Danie damn right im not doing anything.
Anyone in their rightm ind would see the Illegial actions being taken here.

YOUR LEADER LIED... AND MADE YOU OCCUPY A country on false pretenses.
Just because you believe ur there to save the Iraqi people doesnt make it alright.

You went in to remove the threat not save the people.
If this was baout te gassing, or the murders you would of went in whe nthat was happening..
not years and years later.

Your all so blinded by the same boring babble your president releases..
Democracy, Save the Iraqis RAH RAH RAH, follow me and you will be liberators.
Dont mind the dead bodies, or your friends corpses.. They may not want us here, they may hate us, they may behead us, but we are here to help them.

YEAH RIGHT!
Get your head outta the sand, Danie your over there for christ sake, you should be able to tell fact from fiction by now.. surely you can see for yourself the underlying values of this war?

whoa, first you admit that saddams a bad man ruling with an iron fist, that doesnt sound like a democracy, we all know that were willing to go to war agianst a non-democracy as we have done in the past. my friends did not die in vain, after you see the things over going on over here with people that are "doing nothing wrong by killing thousands because they stood up agianst saddam" sure i guess if the civilians took up arms and revolted. but they didnt. they were still civilians who were murdered. civilians are not hating us, theyres a couple of saddams followers that are causin all the chaos.

Originally posted by deafence#
to make it conspiracy related:

war with iraq = more terrorism
more terrorism = enhanced security
enhanced security = control
control = invasion of freedoms (but the public wont care)

and so the path of the NWO unfolds...

You are missing a few steps the least of which being the entire world accepts democracy where Freedom of THOUGHT is given under rule of law with an exception....