Faith in Faith#2

ok the other thread got locked but I talked to a mod and they said if there was stuff we still wanted to discuss about faith to start a new thread but lets keep it civil.

This was spamandham's question that stared the first thread

Originally posted by spamandham
Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

I find the concept repulsive and the root cause behind the enslavement of mankind to both religious and political thinking.

Your thoughts?

Esoteric Teacher I wanted to continue where we left off if you don't mind.
heres the first part of my reply again.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The thought of just dying is not repugnant to me. The thought of deminishing the thought of life after death in anyone else does

Are we not in agreement that the possibility of this is negligable.

Do you think that stating my thoughts will deminsh others beliefs?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Certainly not. I was merely implying that I don't wish to attempt to belittle those who choose to believe in something higher up the chain than humans.

I don't think I was attempting to belittle anyone,if it comes across as this to you I can assure you it's not.I state often in my posts that my aims are not to attack others but to analyze how concepts develop and that my beliefs are no more or less valid than anyone else.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
It is a moral crime against no one but ourselves if we choose to discredit thier words on the basis of their belief system. It is thier belief system and communication skills that can help us to learn and aid us in humanities struggle for more tolerance, and less intolerance between our own kind, ..... and other kinds.

True to an extent but at times the views put forward are in themselves intolerent or bigoted,is it not right to challenge discriminatory views lacking in validity.It would feel more moraly lacking if I failed to challenge views which were offensive to me or flew in the face of human knowledge no matter how they were reached.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Semantics (evil me). What about women? Just kidding. Listen, just because mankind has the most advanced brain in man's point of view, does not make that belief absolutley factual. And, I wouldn't necessarily agree that mankind has been lifted above any other form of life. We just have a highly developed means of communication, which definatley gave us a great amount of knowledge and intelligence above the creatures of this planet as we percieve them to be.

In lifted above I mean that in the aspect of intellegence we are more advances than other creatures and this has provided us with an ability to create culture etc. I don't see a problem with claiming this.
I think I've been pretty clear in my thoughts on man/womans position in creation.Most followers of religion and spiritualty and as far as I'm aware all those you preach heaven and hell type concepts exalt man above all other forms of Gods creation.The result of such thinking is in evidence wherever you care to look.


By the time I did my reply to the rest thread had been locked and I lost the post,I've got to go again I'll have to do the reply later.



[edit on 15/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I'm not sure if I totally agree with you on this point. Faith with logic is faith, but faith without any logical basis is somehow faith with negative connotations? I'll have to give that some thought. Faith to me is finding truth through faith that it must be with no proof, then finding the proof well after the fact of believing it to be truth. The end results being reached, but not necessarily beginning with a logical seed of thought. Faith with logic vs. faith without logic?

I'm not saying faith without any logic is necessarily a negative but just accepting any idea without reasoning can be unhelpful to an individual,whether the idea is from within or proposed by someone else,this is the sort of thing that leads people to give all their money to cults etc.
Whether we are a follower of religion or any organisation or movement it's healthy to question A.where the teachings originate from and B.possible motives within the leadership.Blind acceptence and an unquestioning mind can lead us to a position of potential exploitation.
A way of looking at it also is if you don't apply any reasoning to faith then anything within the limits of your imagination can be treated as real.One person can say through faith I believe in heaven but I could equally claim that when we die a tiny pink elephant hoovers our soul up with his trunk.Each are equally valid as both are based on pure concept of the mind

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Perhaps the afterlife itself. Stories of people who have died and come back with stories of what they have seen are in all cultures, throughout history. Of course, the arguement could be made that it was merely their brains reacting to O2 deprevation.

You read my mind,I think it's difficult if not impossible to comprehend what may be happening in the brain of someone under this much duress.Hallucination would appear a likely candidate either through oxygen deprevation or I read somewhere that the drug ketamine can produce feelings very like the near death experiences that people explain,the body may produce a natural chemical with similar effects under such stress that is released like dopamine.

Call it karma or whatever you like but the longer I live the more clear the cycle of things becomes to me,what goes around comes around,would appear to be reality.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Implanted within us by that which created us, or do our subconsciousses judge us by the rules and laws we as individuals tend to hold others too?
Just a thought. Logically the second makes sense. Faithfully the first does, faithfully logical, though, both may be correct.

This is something I can't explain and have no idea about but I feel it's real.Contemplating on my life and experiences and looking at the world around me I can see this.It's not something I could explain to someone else,I think the realisation of it needs to come to the individual to understand it and appreciate the real beauty of it.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, just because the state of mind of the conscious dictates the filtering, does not mean the conscious mind is aware of what has been filtered, and kept from the conscious experience of life.

I agree the conscious mind will be unaware of what is being filtered but we cannot just claim therefore that something exists and is just being filtered,it's a jump in logic and leads us back to anything imaginable can therefore be claimed.Anything is possible but possibility doesn't mean reality.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Then what would you call it when your brain fills in the blind spot from our eyes? The brain inputs what should be their with opinion, opinion that is not the opinion of the conscious mind.

We do have a blind spot where the optic nerve connects to the back of the eye but the blind spot's not filled in by the mind it's filled with information from the other eye,think of the test where you put and x paper to test your blind spot it only works if you cover one eye,if both eyes are open it won't disappear.

You have it right there there's no need to aspire to unknowable things,to rise above the historical imperfections in mankind is goal enough,strive to become the best person you can be and improve the life of others what greater aim could one have in life to quote Albert Camus "The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart" and when death comes it will take care of it's self and we will finally know or not know as the case may be.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Faith that those heights exist must first be there within the human psychi. So, back to the original question. Who put that faith within us to aspire to be more than man? Man? What inspired man to believe he/she could be more than what man is if not faith in that which is more than man?

The heights are observable in mankind,just as we have the depths of inhumanity and injustice there are numerous examples of the beautiful aspects of human nature.We can strive to acheive the heights or surpass these shining examples.

[edit on 15/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Originally posted by Ras Dedan
It's not something I could explain to someone else,I think the realisation of it needs to come to the individual to understand it and appreciate the real beauty of it.

I agree 100%.

Anything is possible but possibility does mean reality.

I once heard this:
'Anything is possible but nothing is reality.'
As to what it means, ??
Interesting to think about, though.

We do have a blind spot where the optic nerve connects to the back of the eye but the blind spot's not filled in by the mind it's filled with information from the other eye,think of the test where you put and x paper to test your blind spot it only works if you cover one eye,if both eyes are open it won't disappear.

As so quite possibly, we have a blindspot in both eyes, only filled in by sight from the third eye.

I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
--Psalms 32:8-9 KJV

The heights are observable in mankind,just as we have the depths of inhumanity and injustice there are numerous examples of the beautiful aspects of human nature.We can strive to acheive the heights or surpass these shining examples.

And so we are made in the image of His likeness.

The potential for god and devil is in every soul--it is up to the soul to understand this and overcome instead of choosing sides. There is no completion in one half--only a whole is complete.

Anything is possible but possibility does mean reality.

oops meant to be" possibility doesn't mean reality"
trust you to quote the bit with a typo quick edit required

Originally posted by queenannie38
I once heard this:
'Anything is possible but nothing is reality.'
As to what it means, ??
Interesting to think about, though.

I would take it to be similar to something that Descartes would say,basically you cant really trust your senses alone and you cant really "know" anything about the external world.

Originally posted by queenannie38
As so quite possibly, we have a blindspot in both eyes, only filled in by sight from the third eye.

I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
--Psalms 32:8-9 KJV

we do have a blind spot in both eyes but the other eye compensates for it.

Originally posted by queenannie38
The potential for god and devil is in every soul--it is up to the soul to understand this and overcome instead of choosing sides. There is no completion in one half--only a whole is complete.

I would say good and evil rather than God and Devil I have a problem with the devil,not literally just the concept but I agree with the sentiment.








[edit on 15/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

oops meant to be" possibility doesn't mean reality"
trust you to quote the bit with a typo

quick edit required

hee hee

Originally posted by queenannie38
I once heard this:
'Anything is possible but nothing is reality.'
As to what it means, ??
Interesting to think about, though.

I would take it to be similar to something that Descartes would say,basically you cant really trust your senses alone and you cant really "know" anything about the external world.That's how it seems to me, too. I just don't have the words for it, exactly.

I used to say to my mom, 'everything we see is not all there is'

Originally posted by queenannie38
The potential for god and devil is in every soul--it is up to the soul to understand this and overcome instead of choosing sides. There is no completion in one half--only a whole is complete.

I would say good and evil rather than God and Devil

I have a problem with the devil,not literally just the concept but I agree with the sentiment.

Basically the truth of the yin-yang.