Questions I have...

Ok, I am confused here...

I hear many people upset about the Patriot Act and Martial law and losing rights, but how then do you expect that the Federal Government can just wade in a take control of an entire city (a flooded one at that) in 2-3 days time?

Why didn't the Louisiana State Government fix the leveys?
Why is it a Federal responsibility to fix one states problem (bad leveys)?
Why didn't the mayor of NOLA have all city buses moved to high ground? Even Jeb Bush managed to figure this out before Hurricanes hit Florida.

Just some of the questions I have. I'm pretty mad about FEMA not managing the matter, but I am not mad at the military or pointing my finger at Bush (as I keep seeing so many do.)

The Guard takes time to mobilize and I know they can't just go in hours. Ask any Guardsman about that. The active military cannot be used unless martial law is declared AND the state must request the help (which the mayor, etc didn't do prior).

Now personally I don't get why they couldn't have 10 planes loaded with MREs and water waiting to be dropped from the air, but then again...that is expensive to mobilize and then sit. There were plenty of screwups....don't get me wrong, but i wonder when the fingers stop point at the Federal Goverment that everyone wants OUT of their lives and then when something happens its "why didn't you save me?"

I think the State and Local Governments have just as much or more responsibility. They seem to be just pointing fingers up the ladder at this point.

Good post.

I also wonder why there weren't any emergency supplies in the Superdome?

Apparently the Astrodome in Houston maintains a stock of emergency food and water in case of evacuation of Galveston (which was one reason they were able to respond so quickly to the NO evacuation)...but there was nothing in the Superdome.

Is this the President's fault too?

There were reports of food and water delivered to the supedome on Sunday. Apparently they ran out. This is a case of just plain p**s poor planning.

26,000 shelter at Superdome

To help keep them fed and hydrated, the Louisiana National Guard delivered three truckloads of water and seven truckloads of MREs — short for "meals ready to eat." That's enough to supply 15,000 people for three days, according to Col. Jay Mayeaux, deputy director of the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Emergency Preparedness.

26,000 people, supplies for 15,000 for three days. Then they kept adding to the superdome, because they had no where else to put these people. It just wasn't enough.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Just some of the questions I have. I'm pretty mad about FEMA not managing the matter, but I am not mad at the military or pointing my finger at Bush (as I keep seeing so many do.)

Sadly, I cannot answer your questions, but I think they're very good questions that need answering. I do know that, regardless of whose responsibility it is, there was federal funding for fixing the levees and the Bush administration saw fit to drastically reduce it, making the levee project impossible. That's a factor. There are many.

I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around and plenty of shoulders that deserve to carry it.

Source

The reason I personally get so upset at Bush and the administration is that I look at his response to 9/11 and compare it to his response to Katrina. People say the governor of LA should have asked for help or the mayor of NOLA should have done this and that. But the truth is that after 9/11, we were all New Yorkers, remember? There were no mayors or governors or politics and Bush played a great leadership role. He took charge and brought people together to support the people of New York.

After Katrina, simply put, he acts like he doesn't care. I didn't expect him to clean everything up in 2 or 3 days, but he played golf. I didn't expect that! He looked the other way. Had he taken the same leadership role he took on 9/11, we would have all become New Orleaners, the goverments would have worked together and he would have rushed in to help and saved thousands of lives. It took him 5 days to do anything.

Now, I'm not blaming Bush for everything. Not at all. But when I look at the difference between this and 9/11 and ask myself 'why' I get a really sick feeling. Do you see the same response, the same care, the same focus and ferocious determination that he had after 9/11 regarding this tragedy, which has a much larger loss of life?

I'll wager not. And I personally think the reason is that he had to get us all pumped up for his War on Terror after 9/11. This time, he just doesn't give a crap. He doesn't need the tragedy for his own agenda. He doesn't care. And I'm mad about that.

I'm just explaining why I am so frustrated at this whole situation, not trying to get anyone to agree with me or anything.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
but how then do you expect that the Federal Government can just wade in a take control of an entire city (a flooded one at that) in 2-3 days time?

The point is that they didn't even try....And when the situation became politically unacceptable...they used..."we were surprised"..."it was the state and local gov's responsibility to 'officially' request the help"... "posse comitatus"...."logistics"....

Yet, all of it was untrue. Not even the most simple act of dropping relief supplies from the air until nearly five days later....NOBODY expected miracles in the first few days (even if everyone hoped for one)...all they needed was a response. Read the links in the Katrina Research project. There was plenty of evidence they just sat on their hands....

Why didn't the Louisiana State Government fix the leveys?
Why is it a Federal responsibility to fix one states problem (bad leveys)?

Because those projects take federal financial resources.....While the last congressional bill spent billions of dollars on pork barrel projects like building bridges to islands with no population...money earmarked for saving the wetlands in LA, etc.....were cut.

Why didn't the mayor of NOLA have all city buses moved to high ground? Even Jeb Bush managed to figure this out before Hurricanes hit Florida.

Clearly a mistake, among several committed by the Mayor and Governor. But who could have reasonably expected state and local resources to efficiently deal with a disaster of this scale??? That is why the feds with vastly more resources were needed. This storm wasn't (and IS NOT) a state problem....It is a national problem.

Just some of the questions I have. I'm pretty mad about FEMA not managing the matter, but I am not mad at the military or pointing my finger at Bush (as I keep seeing so many do.)

Perhaps, but unlike any of the federal beuracracies...the President had the statutory and constitutional power to command action, but did not.

The active military cannot be used unless martial law is declared AND the state must request the help (which the mayor, etc didn't do prior).

Wrong. The Stafford Act gives the president that authority.

Now personally I don't get why they couldn't have 10 planes loaded with MREs and water waiting to be dropped from the air, but then again...

Exactly. Everyone wants to know why.

"why didn't you save me?"

Do you really not see this is a national disaster?

I think the State and Local Governments have just as much or more responsibility. They seem to be just pointing fingers up the ladder at this point.

Actually it appears to be the other way around on both counts.


[edit on 6-9-2005 by loam]

Here's a breakdown of how FEMA sat on it's ass..


Before the hurricane even hit, FEMA was dispatched:

Monday, August 29, 2005

* FEMA Headquarters: The FEMA National Response Coordination Center (NRCC) Red Team is activated at Level I (Full Activation).
*FEMA headquarters is conducting daily video-teleconferences at noon EDT with FEMA Region IV, the National Hurricane Center and the potentially affected States.
*The Logistics Readiness Center is operational 24/7.
*MERS Teams have been deployed to Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, Georgia, and Texas to support Hurricane Katrina response operations.
*32 Disaster Medical Assistance Teams have been sent to staging areas in Louisiana, Alabama, Texas, and Tennessee in preparation for responding to Hurricane Katrina.
*Seven Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) Task Forces have been deployed to Louisiana, Alabama, Florida and Mississippi in preparation for responding to Hurricane Katrina.
*The ERT-N Blue is deployed to the Louisiana State Emergency Operations Center in Baton Rogue.
*FEMA Region IV RRCC in Atlanta activated at Level I (full activation).
*Four ERT-As are operational in Alabama, Florida, and Mississippi.
*FEMA Region VI RRCC in Denton, TX activated at Level I (full activation).

Now, let's break this down:

MERS Teams: Mobile Emergency Response Service

Each team consists of 26 personel. There's no disclosure on how many teams were deployed, but it's plural, so I'm assuming more then one.

The MERS teams' job is to provide vital satellite communications and electrical generating equipment for emergency purposes when commercial lines are downed by storms or other natural disasters. Such prompt aid helps ensure the availability of health assistance and public order when post-disaster chaos might otherwise prevail.

A standard MERS team consists of a convoy of 15 vehicles ranging from tractors and satellite vans to fuel tankers and Jeeps. MERS personnel include telecommunications, computer, disaster, electrical, satellite, and other specialists.

MERS is essentially a primary support service for the initial emergency on-site FEMA disaster response team following a presidential declaration of one or more counties as a major disaster area.

Where these locations were setup is up for debate. If these stations suffered during the actual hurricane is also up for debate.

32 Disaster Medical Assistance Teams

The DMA teams consist of 35 members each, consisting of physicians, nurses, paramedics, emergency medical technicians and other medical specialists. Each unit is designed to be self-sufficient for 72 hours with supplies including food and medicine.

Here's a breakdown of what exactly they do. They were ranked at Level 1 (Fully operational) when the hurricane passed.

(7) Seven Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) Task Forces

Each team consists of 70 people. Their priority job is to conduct physical search and rescue in collapsed buildings, provide emergency medical care to trapped victims, assess and control gas, electrical services and hazardous materials, and evaluate and stabilize damaged structures.

Here's the breakdown. They were at level 1 at the time of the hurricane.

The rest

The rest seem to be office and logistic setups.. So FEMA sent roughly 1662 personal to an area about to be slammed by a Category 4/5 Hurricane that still housed well over 100,000 citizens..

Tuesday, August 30, 2005:

*The American Red Cross said it had thousands of volunteers mobilized for the hurricane. It was the "largest single mobilization that we've done for any single natural disaster," spokesman Bradley Hague said. The organization set up operational headquarters in Baton Rouge, La.

Yet, 5 days after the hurricane hit, only 600-1200 volunteers of Red Cross have been deployed!

*The Environmental Protection Agency dispatched emergency crews to Louisiana and Texas because of concern about oil and chemical spills.
*The Coast Guard closed ports and waterways along the Gulf Coast and positioned craft around the area to conduct post-hurricane search and rescue operations.
*The Agriculture Department said its Food and Nutrition Service would provide meals and other commodities, such as infant formula, distilled water for babies and emergency food stamps.
*The Health and Human Services Department sent 38 doctors and nurses to Jackson, Miss., to be used where needed, and 30 pallets of medical supplies to the region, including first aid materials, sterile gloves and oxygen tanks.
*Some 6,000 National Guard personnel from Louisiana and Mississippi who would otherwise be available to help deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina are in Iraq.
*Even so, Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said the states have adequate National Guard units to handle the hurricane needs. He said about 6,500 National Guard troops were available in Louisiana, about 7,000 in Mississippi, nearly 10,000 in Alabama and about 8,200 in Florida.
*FEMA dispatched nothing on this day!

Wednesday, August 31, 2005: New Orleans 80 Pct Flooded
*FEMA dispatched nothing on this day!

Thursday, September 1, 2005
*FEMA dispatched nothing on this day!
*National guard in full swing - Dispatching several vehicles, planes and helicopters

Friday, September 2, 2005
*FEMA wakes up!
-43 National Disaster Medical System Teams with 1,196 personnel deployed.
-28 Urban Search and Rescue Teams staged in Louisiana and Mississippi (Operations in New Orleans haulted)
-Planning to move 4 million MREs daily for the next three days.
-13 assessment teams for hazardous materials have been deployed.

FOR 3 ENTIRE DAYS FEMA SUPPLIED ZERO ADDITIONAL RESOURCES TO THE EFFECTED AREAS!

Edit: Forgot sources

www.fema.gov...
www.fema.gov...

[edit on 9/6/2005 by QuietSoul]

They planned it, they created it, they made the non-response, they create the domino response resultant
They care nothing for human life whom they regard as ultimately disposable

[edit on 6-9-2005 by dh]

FEMA Chief Waited Until After Storm Hit

The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security employees to the region — and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

This speaks for itself..... I'm certain we will learn much worse.

Ok... The first two people had some sense... the rest of you are just playing the blame game... Let`s go back to the basics... This. Is. A. Hurricane. This is not two planes flying into two highly populated buildings that could have affected our economic status way worse than it did. Second... Being from the east coast, and knowing what kind of damage a hurricane can do, this kind of damage was to be expected. Next, look at where NO is situated. Hmm... let`s put up a city that is surrounded by swamp land and then OH there´s the Gulf, the warmest body of water surrounding the united states of america. Ok, well, what adds fuel to a Hurricane.... OOOOOO I got it... WARM WATER! Ok, so now that we know that hurricanes frequent the east coast and OOO the GULF! we can come to the assumption that Louisiana has always had some sort of a plan for evacuation no matter what the STRENGTH of the hurricane. Now, I can see maybe the other states more inward that have only had a hurricane once in the past 20-90 years being a problem, but you plan for what you are accustomed to. Next, let´s look at the other states that have had Category 5 hurricanes: Florida, SC, Georgia, ooo here`s the kicker Louisiana. It may have only happened once in the past 100 years, but what do you know... it happened in recorded history. Now let`s think about sending people in to help the evacuation merely days before it hits land. If any of you have ever come this close to a hurricane, you can start feeling the effects well before it is even close to land. Why do you think we still have people living in the southeast. You are used to the symptoms, and oOoooo another kicker, the time of year! Now that we all know what that means, let`s think about the corruption in NO, and how it is( don`t know for certain about that right now)/ definitely was the murder capital of the US. Hmm... with murder capital comes corruption in the local governments. If you are from the "dirty" South, you will of course know about this, surely. Do you really think they are worried about getting people out besides themselves? No, not at all... Now, really folks... if we are going to point fingers... let´s look at the mayor of NO for that one, and even the Governor. Oh yeh, eventhough I have some typos... don`t pull the YOUR STUPID BECAUSE YOU CAN`T TYPE! deal on me because you do it too you hypocrites.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by wbingham07]

Originally posted by wbingham07
you hypocrites.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by wbingham07]

Yeah, that was convincing...

Originally posted by wbingham07








This is what I see when I try to read your post..


A big giant box of nothing.

Hmm, well thanks for the "lesson" on how hurricanes form, how they can't be compared to 9/11, and how, well.. everything you just said does not pertain to this thread in any way possible.

Your 'lecture' does not address a single bit of the original thread's discussion. This nation has survived several category 4-5 hurricanes and never once has the relief effort been so poorly drawn out. That is what this thread is about.

But if you insist on spouting off irrelevent topics such as the crime of New Orleans, or planes flying into buildings.. or how hurricanes form in relation to how these all pertain somehow to the topic at hand.. go ahead.. most people will glance right over your massive text-block

Oh yeh, eventhough I have some typos... don`t pull the YOUR STUPID BECAUSE YOU CAN`T TYPE! deal on me because you do it too you hypocrites.

Typos should be the last of your worries. Try paragraphs, pununcuation, explainations, material and well.. logic?



[edit on 9/6/2005 by QuietSoul]

QuietSoul

First full belly laugh of the day..... Thank you.

[edit on 6-9-2005 by loam]

26,000 people, supplies for 15,000 for three days. Then they kept adding to the superdome, because they had no where else to put these people. It just wasn't enough.

I cant decide if New Orleans should be renamed New Alantis or New Titantic.

There are some institutional issues that have not been addressed that contributed to the issues in Louisiana. (Remember, Louisiana is, historically, the most corrupt state in the Union. No, Chicago and Illinois don't win that one.)

This is simplified - but I will discuss School Districts ...
First, the Mayor rules the city. The mayor, city manager, or town council make all local decisions in the U.S. The municipality is independent in most of the U.S. with a police force that reports to to the local municipal government. The next unit of government in the U.S. is normally a County - or in the case of Louisiana, Parish. The Parish then has a government which may include its own police force which may or may not be having a turf war with the municipal law enforcement folks in their Parish and, possibly, the state police. After the Parish/County, you have the State Government with whatever program is in place.

In Louisiana, they have an executive branch, a bicameral legislative branch, and a judiciary. Depending on the relative strength of a governor in respect to their legislative branch, the governor may or may not be in a position to take a strong stance on anything - including disaster management. Now, some cities have smaller divisions - think New York, Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans. Those individual divisions are responsible for their own management within the confines of the larger entities.

Now, just to confuse matters, you also have School Districts (re: School Buses) that may not fit into any of the above. (I don't think there are any school districts that cross state lines, but it wouldn't surprise me.) School Districts are governed by School Boards or a School District Executive. The mayor or county executives may or may not have any authority to use or control those resources. My understanding of Louisiana is that the School Districts are completely independent of the mayor's office and, as such, could not easily be used as civil defense centers.

Ok, so, now you have to have cooperation between at least 7 groups - Mayor's office, municipal police (may or may not be on good terms with mayor), Parish/County executive/government, Parish/County Sheriff's Office, State Police, Governor's Office, and the School Districts (usually more than one in a major metropolitan area). Have you ever herded cats? It's similar. This explains (to our shame) why the school buses were not commandeered for evacuation and/or rescue.

So, the mayor and his police must get cooperation from the Parish and the Parish's Sheriff and the the Governor and the State Police to ask for Federal Help. Simple, eh? NOT! Now we introduce the alphabet soup of Federal Agencies. (Until the Shrub, it automatically went straight to the formerly competent FEMA.)

Ok, Homeland Security receives a request for aide. Wait, was that supposed to go to the FEMA office or the National Guard? Whoa! Almost forgot, the National Guard reports to the governor of the state wherein they reside. Let me repeat that: The Commander in Chief of the National Guard is the Governor wherein the unit resides. The Governor of Louisiana had the authority to immediately mobilize the Louisiana National Guard. She didn't. (This is not going into why there were so few National Guard - I will not rant about the Phillipine Insurrection in the Desert.)

Ok, we now know there weren't sufficient National Guard troops, the Governor may request help from her fellow governors who may mobilize their guard troops. The Federal Government does not need to do anything more than what the FAA does in coordinating flight plans in this scenario. If the governor knew she didn't have sufficient resources, she should have asked for additional guardsmen from her fellow governors first.

Still not enough folks? Well, then she can ask the president to suspend posse comitatus (law forbidding Federal troops from being used on domestic soil - comes from the Civil War era) and add Federal troops. This means a full state of emergency. WAIT! There was a full state of emergency already! It was declared before the storm hit.

The Federal government now gets to show its incompetence. (Like I said, plenty to go around). The Federal Troops are now used by the Governor as part of her guardsmen to restore order and work in relief capacity.

Now, back in the 1970s - during the Carter Administration- there were a spate of F4 tornadoes that left several midwestern states in shambles. Poor response was endemic. If I recall, it wasn't as bad as this fiasco. Carter vowed that this could not be allowed to happen again. He worked to create a Cabinet-level position with an organization that had the power to create a temporary police state - FEMA.

Now, everyone in America hates a police state, in theory. In fact, freedom doesn't mean much to the majority if basic services are not available and chaos is occurring in the street. FEMA - until the Shrub gave it to one of his drinking buddies - was the answer to quickly restore order.

FEMA had more success stories than most Federal Agencies. They were to be a central clearinghouse to coordinate activities necessary to restore order after both natural and unnatural (attacks) disasters. Now, I'm not saying that FEMA was perfect, but it was not the unmitigated disaster that we are now seeing in the Gulf. (It is everywhere in the 90,000 mile area.)

Federalism normally works to keep a check and balance against dictatorship. Sometimes, a little dictatorship is necessary to allow the checks and balance again.

There are other problems. It isn't just racism. There is a strong feeling of city vs. country in the South. Southern culture is not the same as Northern culture. And Louisiana culture is not the same as Kentucky Culture either. I hope someone who can speak honestly of the cultural issues that may have contributed to the disaster.

Pax.

Originally posted by mlowsley
Still not enough folks? Well, then she can ask the president to suspend posse comitatus

The Stafford Act would have permitted the President to intervene unilaterally.

Ok, that cinches it. Bush is the most incompetent president in U.S. history. He beats all of them hands down. He had the ability and authority to fix the problem within hours and chose to sit and twiddle his thumbs.

This government - and the caliber of people they attract - is losing even the minimal respect I give any politician. (Since politician = criminal in my mind, that is not much.)

Pax.

QuietSoul You have another hearty belly laugh from me also. Thanks, I really needed it.

wbingham07 Before you go spouting off what you know nothing about especially on a conspiricy board, I suggest you go read at least a few of the conspiricies that have been mentioned on ATS. Since you apparantly know nothing about weather warfare, I suggest you do a search. I'm not sure how to spell it scalear technology, HAARP, and I'm sure there are others I haven't heard about.

Look into the New World Order and their plans for us. I'm sure this fits right in with their plans whether this was intenitional or not.

DH - You said a mouthfull.

ZeddicusZulZorander

I'm not sure if it is the federal's responsibility to fix the levies, but there was a program in place called SELA in which funds were suppose to go to fix them, but Bush took those funds and used them for the Iraqi war. The state may have turned to the federal government for help to fix the levies, since it didn't have the necessary resources or money to do so itself.

How do I expect the government to go in two or three days time? I expected some type of help the first day. I would not have been expecting a whole national gaurd. At least a bare minimum of releif supplies flown in. Why so soon? FEMA was suppose to be created for this. They should have gotten the man power, resources, and been ready with orginazation as soon as they even suspected Katrina was going to be a problem.

If FEMA was not originally created to be ready to deal with national emergancy disasters as soon as they happen, then what was it created for? Why are we wasting billions of our tax payers dollars for such an inefficient orginazation. Or is that just a front for FEMA as some of us suspect?

Editied to add: mlowsley excellent post and history lesson.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by Mystery_Lady]

Would it make sense that no help was dispached because nothing was to be gained byt getting things sorted out?

there have been reports that a few miles away there was a whiole fleet of busses waiting on the word to be deployed to get people out of there, but they didn't get the word for 3 days that they were needed.

Here's a few questions I have:

The US Army can drop a bunch of precision bombs with pinpoint accuracy overseas within an hour of receiving the mission, and yet it takes it takes your own leaders of government and emergency agencies THREE FRICKIN DAYS to drop food and water on their OWN SOIL?

When Bush visited the flood victims initially, did he bother to bring, say, a platoon of helicopters WITH HIM that had maybe, you know, some food and water? I saw some touching scenes of him hugging people in photo ops in New Orleans, but I didn't see him with any bottles of water to hand out.

50,000 people stranded in the Convention Center, and FEMA didn’t know ANYTHING about them until four days after the storm? WTF is THAT about?! All they had to do was flip on the damn television and see it on CNN. Does CNN have access to better information than the organization specifically trained to deal with crises like this? And that organization does not look at other sources for info (I just find it hard to believe NOBODY at the entire organization knew anything).

How much federal money exactly does Homeland Security get to do nothing? Was it the fault that it is a huge and massive bureaucracy that it took so long to respond?

How many SERIOUS ERRORS OF LEADERSHIP can your President make before he is held accountable for them? How many times are you going to hope he deals with things better "next time"?


Yeah, I guess that's all the questions for now.... New ones come up all the time though. This is just the most surreal and tragic situation.


[edited for herrors in the hinglish]



[edit on 7-9-2005 by Jakomo]