I just got back from a FEMA Detainment Camp

Esoterica,

I have tried to answer your questions below.

Originally posted by Esoterica
Anyone have a better idea of what to do with 1 million refugees?

Yes, help them start their lives over without removing basic civil rights in the process. That's my opinion.

Seriously, I'm waiting.

"Uhh... you can't just leave donated goods in the cabins. FEMA has stated they want all supplies to go to their central warehouse. They said they have had far too many supplies come in and they need to handle them. You can't leave ANY clothes."

I just stared at them.

Yep, because it's an absolutely ludicrious idea that they would have inventory and logistical control. Best thing to do is to just have items randomly given out.

And exactly why would they need "inventory and logistical control"? If the cabins are pre-supplied, why would what ever organization in charge want to make that more bureaucratic? If some one needs something that isn't in the pre-stock cabins, it would be "randomly given out" as you state. It's just that much less work to be paid for when it's taken care of by volunteers.

Now, I'm not saying that this is a good thing. Sticking people in "detainment" camps (see, I can use ominous quotation marks too) is pretty horrible. But seriously, there are a MILLION people right now that can't go home. Because they don't have a home. That's twice the population of Wyoming. This isn't a Disney movie, when bad # happens, less than ideal methods may need to be used.

Now, why wouldn't they want people to leave? Let's say that the camp is full. Bob decides to go on a hike for a week. How long is the camp supposed to wait until they fill the vacancy left by Bob? What are they supposed to do when Bob comes back and demands his now-occupied bed? How are they supposed to create a supply network when the "population" of each camp keeps changing? One camp will end up with too much food, one will have too little... Not to mention that you really don't want a bunch of homeless people wandering around. The people in these camps have NOTHING, if you want to try to help them rebuild their lives you have to impose some sort of structure.

Note: Before anyone says that people might want to leave to visit family and friends... I doubt anyone would want to visit family that forced them to live in the camp instead of on the living room couch. I don't see such a thing becoming an issue.

I'm not sure there is a question in the above that you didn't respond to yourself, but I would point out that Bob's a bit weird. And extended camping trips aside, we were told they would not be able to come and go from the camp...that's 4 hours, 8 hours, or a week hiking in the mountains.

[edit on 9-6-2005 by Esoterica]

Sorry for the delay in the response.


[edit on 9-10-2005 by Valhall]

First off, I'd like to say great job Val, I've followed this story from the begining.

This story has the inherant downside of any first hand account and that is one of perspective. Obviously, every observed action will be filtered through the author's perception of what is going on. A great example of this is the stories we recieve from Iraq, to us our soldiers are heroes but to many who live there our soldiers are an occupying force.

However, that is not to say that Val was being in any way disingenous. But blindly believing a story because of an author's status on the board would be to accept ignorance. I believe it is important to crittically analyze any information you are given. The simple fact is that anyone could be lying to you and it's up to you alone to make sure you believe the truth.

However this post is not like other ATS posts, this thread has recieved so much attention that it has become representative of ATS as a whole and therefore must be held to higher standards. To allow this thread to run rampantly off topic, steered thusly by newly joined and overly skeptical members would be more negligent than FEMA's initial response. As this thread will be the first ATS experience for many new members it is important that we put our best face foward and not bicker over semantics.

As an American I believe strongly in the rule of the people over the government. I think Springer's post may have come on a little strong for many who wouldn't understand the specifics of how ATS is run. To a new member is may have seemed as though the owners rule over those of lesser status, and contrary to the site's motto, would cancel a memebers status as such because of dissenting view points. I can attest to the fact that this is not the case. ATS is comprised of a massive range of view points, running the gamut from out right loon to certified expert and everything in between. On this board, more than anywhere on the internet, are you free to speak your mind. But this is Springer's site, and if he wanted to make us all wear funny pirate hats I suppose we'd have to.

All members, but specifically the newer ones, need to understand that this thread has become the ambassador to the rest of the net and more "reputable" news sources. By posting here you are helping to shape the rest of the net's perception of ATS. Now that we have their attention we must make them see that we are not crazy, bickering, tin foiled conpsiracy nuts, rather we are well informed concerned citizens of this planet. By speaking here you are speaking for all of ATS, please try to support your fellow members as we are all in search of the same truth.

Now, on topic:

I have neglected to post much in the wake of Katrina, I have been too shocked and amazed by what has currently transpired to form polite readable sentences. I have been struck speachless by how willingly my fellow Americans are giving up their rights. How deep the disinformation and psychosocial mass control has reached. Americans are turning to their idiot box for advice, and when the media says it'll be ok then it must be so. When citizens are told to ignore the armed police forces going from house to house comandeering fire arms they do so without a second thought. We have been preconditioned with the modern mind set of a overgrown powerful government to which each citizen must be subserviant. The police are no longer there to serve and protect the citizenry, they serve and protect the interests of the military industrial complex at the cost of our inherant American freedoms. People have forgotten that without the blind will of the people the government will be no more. America, as a country, is made up of the American people and the land they call home irregardless of their governmental or economic theologies. We have forgotten who we are, we are not citizens of the government of the United States of America, this land belongs to us and it is our job to protect it from tyrannical governments hell bent on our economic and social serfdom. The quiet ease with which New Orleans has been invaded and occupied frightens me. Granted there has been a major natural catastrophe but it seems few realize that it was caused by our very own government. There are mountains of evidence that our government saw this as a coming issue and actively refused to rectify the situation until things reached a crittical point. I fear far too few people are viewing this disaster with the future in mind. We are now used to seeing armed governmental forces occupying our home soil, we expect them to take our guns, to herd us like the cattle they see us as into overcrowded "relief" shelters, all in the name of "Homeland Security". America is not the government's homeland to secure, it is the homeland of the American citizen and it is the American citizens that allow the government the power it lords over us. Ever since the War on Terror began we have been ever vigilant, looking for the unseen enemy lurking in the shadows. It has become self evident that the unseen terror in fact lives in the White House. There has been a silent and on going war since our revolution between the federal government and the people of this country. Since it's inception the federal government was run by the newly formed American aristocracy and has sought to wrest control of this fine nation from the hands of the people. One by one, with laws and executive orders we have had our country stolen from us. We feel we must do our duty to our government, but I say to you that we have no duty to any government. Rather, our government has a duty to protect us and aid us in times of crisis, to ensure and secure the American way of life and above all else to protect our natural and inalienable rights as citizens. It is when our government ceases to provide for the citizenry and in turn provides for itself at the risk of the citizenry that it is our duty to correct the problems, wether with words or with force. Our sole duty is to ensure that the government will never take away from us all that we hold dear. Americans have become sheep, herded by the government in serfdom, where they slave away under the illusion of bettering their lives. The gross reality is that the government percieves your home and your land to be it's economic asset, you are also it's econmic asset, and when it feels the need to requisition you or anything you own it does so unimpeeded. I only wish I could be sure I've convinced others of what it means to be an American but I fear it is a losing battle. As long as people have their tvs and their condos, their money, their clothes, and their mindless preconcieved notion of physical beauty they will continue to be sheep.

If I could get but one statement across to the young people of our nation it would be: YOU DO NOT SERVE THE GOVERNMENT. IT IS YOU WHO HAVE RIGHTS, NOT THE GOVERNMENT. YOUR MOST IMPORTANT RIGHT IS YOUR RIGHT TO REFUSE, WHETHER WITH WORDS OR ACTIONS, ANYTHING YOU DEEM TYRRANICAL. REFUSE. RESIST. PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS OR THEY WILL BE ABOLISHED

Shadowflux,

Thank you for that awesome post and for sharing your feelings. You are absolutely right that any first-hand accounting of a real-life experience is filtered through the perceptions and biases of the people who are telling it. I tried very hard to not put anymore of my personal feeling into the account than possible.

Also, it has been suggested many times since I put this up that this "should have been on ATSNN". No it shouldn't have. Because it IS a recounting of a personal experience. I didn't go out and do investigative work, short of Springer speaking with the preacher the next morning. I have tried to follow up with all information that's available. And that's the best I can do.

I don't particularly care if Catherder or anybody else agrees with my decision to use "detainment" in the title of this thread. THAT's why it's a discussion thread instead of a news article. I simply came back, shared what I heard and saw, and gave a personal accounting.

THIS IS NOT A NEWS ARTICLE. And there is no agenda to this thread.

P.S. And I will state here what my biases were heading over to the camp.

We thought the camp was going to be ran by the Red Cross. We thought this because of the statement made by the lady at the gas station. Prior to the statement by that lady, I have to be honest I didn't think about who would be running it. I assumed there would be OHP presence there (not as much as I saw though). I didn't expect military presence. I figured there would be DHS (Department of Human Services in Oklahoma) people possibly, since there would have to be processing activities taking place. That's about all I expected because I really hadn't thought more about it.

We stopped to get the camera because of the statement by the lady at the gas station. I don't like Red Cross, and probably never will. The dislike is genetic - I got it from my parents. My father served in the Army Air Corps during WWII and I've grown up hearing about how Red Cross would make the soldiers pay for the supplies they were "providing them". So when I thought the Red Cross might get persnickity with me, I wanted to take the camera.

I never even considered FEMA...not until I got there.

[edit on 9-10-2005 by Valhall]

Got some numbers here. Not sure if this has been posted yet:







As an aside, people please stop arguing over semantics and trying to pick apart the story which is an eye-witness account, not a news piece. The thread author has presented what she experienced and her own personal questions and interpretations regarding that experience. Others have also added their own information, questions and interpretations. What interpretation YOU make based on the information presented is entirely up to YOU, the reader. If you do not agree with any inferences made by the thread author or other contributors, that is of course your prerogative, but please refrain from deriding others for their opinion in this discussion, and from making aspersions as to contributors' supposed agendas. Let's keep the focus on the events and the facts themselves, not on those reporting on it.

[edit on 2005-9-10 by wecomeinpeace]

I am sorry, but I find this whole thing highly questionable, especially since they were announcing on Septermber 6th that Oklahoma was probably NOT going to get any more evacuees. Falls Creek was told to stand down on the 6th.

The media has been ALL OVER falls creek for the past week, and there hasn't been ANY kind of suggestion that anything strange is going on.

This yahoo search only shows SOME of the photos that the Associated Press moved from Falls Creek this past week.
search.news.yahoo.com...

9/7/05
newsok.com...

9/7/05
newsok.com...

9/7/05
newsok.com...

9/8/05
newsok.com...

We have had over 1000 refugees at Camp Gruber, the media has had
wide open access and again nothing strange has been reported.
Some of those people have already left because they made contact with friends or family.

newsok.com...

I was infuriated with our goverrnment BEFORE Katrina and now am even more so, but there are enough REAL horrors going on without spreading conspiracy theories. I think if the author is going to spread this all over the internet, he or she ought to be willing to go on the record with NPR or whoever.

Originally posted by Asil

I was infuriated with our goverrnment BEFORE Katrina and now am even more so, but there are enough REAL horrors going on without spreading conspiracy theories. I think if the author is going to spread this all over the internet, he or she ought to be willing to go on the record with NPR or whoever.

And you believe everything the main stream media tells you? Personally I'll believe an eye witness account before I believe the major press, especially with what happened with CNN not too long ago. Or did you forget they were caught in an outright lie? If CNN lied to us, I wonder what other controled media is lying to us right now about the entire Kirtrina affair?

As for Vall going on record, she already did with her local papers. Which you would have found out if you actually read the entire thread. It seems some admin on this forum know her personally. It may not mean anything to you, but it does to many older ATS members. Her ATS award in 2004 means much to the forum members who understand what that award signifies. If you would like to know, please go to the FAQ and question and answer board to find out. Not too many people actually have this award.

Also, Vall stated that she did not want her real identity to be known on this forum. There are many good reasons why she should be concerned about blowing the whistle on FEMA, or even calling FEMA into question. I wouldn't be suprised if there comes a time where someone will be arrested because of that. Just because she is taking pre-cautions and protecting her and her family by doing so, doesn't mean that she is hiding anything or lying to us.

If you want to believe the government and FEMA still has our best interest and the victims best interests at heart, go right ahead and do so.

Edited to add: Please site news sources that the rest of us do not have to register for even if it is a free registration.

[edit on 11-9-2005 by Mystery_Lady]

Just to elaborate on Mystery_Lady's post a little:

Anyone who has spent a little time on ATS has no doubt that what Valhall has posted is the truth. Valhall does not make things up. Period.

She should be commended for showing this to us, not having her integrity questioned.





[edit on 11-9-2005 by Duzey]

Originally posted by Duzey
Anyone who has spent a little time on ATS has no doubt that what Valhall has posted is the truth. Valhall does not make things up. Period.

She should be commended for showing this to us, not having her integrity questioned.
[edit on 11-9-2005 by Duzey]

Yes, she should. I would believe Valhall before I believe the MSM (Mainstream Media). She has provided an eyewitness account with photos. She has followed up with other eyewitness opinions. Valhall has done more to prove her story than the MSM has been asked to do.



[edit on 11-9-2005 by sosuemetoo]

Edited to add: Please site news sources that the rest of us do not have to register for even if it is a free registration.

No need just use www.bugmenot.com...

EDIT: Valhal's crediblity is without question. She is only one out of 3 people who have won that medal you see her wearing. Very very good reason for that one

[edit on 11-9-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by Asil

I was infuriated with our goverrnment BEFORE Katrina and now am even more so, but there are enough REAL horrors going on without spreading conspiracy theories. I think if the author is going to spread this all over the internet, he or she ought to be willing to go on the record with NPR or whoever.

Asil,

I was over there and wrote this on the 5th. I got the thread up around midnight. You are right, the next day (believe it was in the late afternoon evening of the 6th) is when the Oklahoma news started reporting that Falls Creek was put on hold.

Further to your conversation about media in Falls Creek. I have no idea if they were allowed into the cabin area of Falls Creek once the buses were called off. I haven't seen any reports stating such, but that doesn't mean there haven't been any.

Here is BGCO's article of September 5 about the press conferences and restrictions:

www.bgco.org...[57F338A6-2B68-47B7-9AD0-3583FE4931D5]&sc=-1&ni=520&fr=news

And this was confirmed by the media.

Also, I DID give my identity to the reporters I spoke with. I haven't "spread" this all over the internet - other concerned people have. I posted it one place - right here. And I've done my dead-level best to keep it updated when I heard more, no matter if the more contradicted what we were told that day. I've also been completely open with the news agencies.

In this thread (I know it is long) I have discussed that it sounds like the people at Camp Gruber have the ability to come and go. Though I haven't had that confirmed (unless you live up near there and can now confirm it) it does appear as if they can.

But I also read an article yesterday that they were getting a bit tighter up there because they had found criminals, gang members and drug dealers inside the evacuee population at Gruber. The article stated they had sent one man back to Louisiana. The article also stated they had even found some Oklahoma locals who had slipped into the camp and were acting like New Orleans victims. That's a bit of a shameful find.



[edit on 9-11-2005 by Valhall]

Speaking of criminal records
Yes this from Alex Jones but the original story is from the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

FEMA's inspectors included criminals
The US Government Continues to Employ Criminals at Every Level
South Florida Sun-Sentinal | April 24, 2005
By Megan O'Matz

Government inspectors entrusted to enter disaster victims' homes and verify damage claims include criminals with records for embezzlement, drug dealing and robbery, a South Florida Sun-Sentinel investigation has found.

That first line of accountability, the newspaper found, includes:
James A. DeWan, 46, of Texas. Known by the nickname "Mad Dog," he has a rap sheet that includes marijuana possession, three drunken-driving convictions and four citations for public intoxication. DeWan referred questions about his background to his employer.

Bill J. Neal, 60, of North Carolina, who served more than six years in prison in three states for criminal sexual conduct, attempted embezzlement of public money, conspiracy to commit wire fraud and coc aine possession. After last year's hurricanes, he trained new inspectors in Florida. Neal told the newspaper he had an impeccable work record.

Niels S. May, 39, of Tampa, who pleaded guilty to possession of marijuana, coc aine and drug paraphernalia in 1996. During a search of his home, police found two rifles, a shotgun and a .357 Magnum, court records show. "I'm not going to discuss my criminal history, and it's not much of one, to anybody," May told the Sun-Sentinel .

Darin P. Brebes, 36, a longtime inspector. Twice convicted of drunken driving in California, Brebes is wanted in Florida for failing to appear on a 1999 DUI in Broward County. Brebes said he no longer drinks, adding that a DUI is nothing more than "a traffic violation."

The four are among thousands of independent contractors FEMA has relied on to evaluate damage in disaster areas and help determine whether applicants receive government aid.

It is not known how many in the whole work force might have criminal records because FEMA will not release the names of any of its inspectors or their supervisors, citing an "unwarranted invasion of their personal privacy." The Sun-Sentinel has filed a federal suit against FEMA and its umbrella agency, the Department of Homeland Security, seeking the identities of inspectors and aid recipients.

www.infowars.com...

Administrative update:

I thought those active in this thread might like to know that the first page is being displayed an average of 1.32 times every second since it was first noticed in a big way Friday morning. There are 239 distinct websites covering this material and linking back to ATS.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Administrative update:

I thought those active in this thread might like to know that the first page is being displayed an average of 1.32 times every second since it was first noticed in a big way Friday morning. There are 239 distinct websites covering this material and linking back to ATS.

Well done Valhall and the rest of those involved then.

It's an interesting thread, the pictures I find...odd but it is good that so many people are getting to view it.

How many unique IPs have we had view this Skeptic?

The views and interest is warranted. Especially on this very sad memorial day.

I'm watching the national coverage of the 9/11 memorial now for the victims and surviving families of that tragic event and can't help but see the difference in attitudes and lack of respect for these families.

I'm not going to say what I'm really thinking right now though.

Conspiracy Planet has it here now.

BTW that site was also fingered by the "Ministry of Truth" site as one of the top disinformation sites....

Originally posted by Amethyst


BTW that site was also fingered by the "Ministry of Truth" site as one of the top disinformation sites....

APPARENTLY THEY ARE!

Look at the first paragraph in their article:

"The FEMA official then precedes to tell us that some churches had already enquired into whether they could send a van or bus on Sundays to pick up any occupants of their cabins who might be interested in attending church. FEMA will not allow this.

Now go look at my original post. Sorry Charlie, I never ever claimed to have spoken with "a FEMA official".

So much for just being able to handle an account without jacking it to your agenda.

Originally posted by Valhall
Now go look at my original post. Sorry Charlie, I never ever claimed to have spoken with "a FEMA official".

So much for just being able to handle an account without jacking it to your agenda.

Might want to drop 'em an e-mail or something then, and set the record straight.

I would think that as an "alternative" media source they'd want to tell things as they are and not exaggerate or misquote or anything.

This may have been covered already and I apologise if this is the case (I need to catch up with it all!), but is there any way that you can try and arrange an interview maybe with one or more of the refugees?
It would make a good podcast and might answer a lot of questions and maybe even put some rumours to rest.

Valhall, slap them with a law suit.

I can use my work e-mail and send a complaint to them about "Misrepresentation" and possible "defemation" of character.