New abortion law could mean death penalty for doctors

For what it's worth, there have been teen pregnancies, and abortions, for millenia.

Neither of these are new phenomena.

But in recent times, yes, the problem does go hand in hand with a society reluctant to discuss sexuality in any form of realistic and/or healthy manner.

*shrug*

Thomas, our children "ARE" having sex, religion is not going to stop it all we can do is educate them that waiting is best until they are older and if they don't is ugly consequences, sex is part of human nature something that you can not discuss here we are sexual beings.

Its a reason why in earlier times families used to married their children young to avoid the "sins of the flesh"

Now is becoming a target to religious group and religious backed politicians because is a good way to target the "Moral majority"

Not matter what religious groups are doing is not helping at all.

Children will engage in sexual behavior and without proper education "WILL" have unwanted pregnancies, that some will be harmful to a young girl and abortion "WILL" be the only solution.

Unless . . . you advocate for the killing of a teen mother through pregnacy. because she has sinned.

Sex has been part of human kind since it became aware of it.

And that is a fact, education not preaching will help unwanted pregnancies and abortions, on teens.

By the way I have not found yet a "Religion" that has successfully eradicated sexual behavior yet.

And, you have found a way to avoid the discussion by being ludicrous.

Your ways have done nothing but create this problem. The problem was created purposefully, so that while the moral foundation is destroyed, the value of the most innocent human's life is lessened to nothing.

You know as well as I do that your "education" has done nothing to lessen the problem. You want to solve it? Look at how it was done several decades ago, before the social reengineering was kicked into high gear.

Laugh all you want, this is no joke, and your ideas are not your ideas at all, but the ideas planted in the minds of susceptable people by those in control. Try and break out of the mind control. I had to; I was caught in the other side's control, until I realized what was going on. What's worse, I didn't used to be in it, but was recaught after 9/11.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Gee, Marg, again, look at the problem in terms of when and why it became a problem, and who's solution you think is proper.
The teen pregnancy problem took off when? Was it when the country's historically-rooted morals were in tact, or did teen pregnancy start increasing with the Liberal-driven attack on Christian morals?

Hum. . . Thomas sex has been part of our human nature since boys and Girls learned that they were physically different.

Unless you advocate for radical measures like muslin countries how do you are to stop sexual behavior.

Uh, yeah, after, Marg. So, rather than repairing the damaged nation, it is your contention that butchering children and teaching teens how to be immoral is the way to go?

I advocate for the rights of women to chose, and what kind of damage you talking about?

Is not like sex has been introduced in our "Christian" nation in recent years.

One thing is for sure, my solution is a fact, and worked for a long time. The solution you espouse is part of the Liberal nation-deconstruction, to be followed by the Rights military march. I can think of nothing more dangerous than an extremely powerful country with a nation who tries to invent their own "morals". You are playing into their game, Marg,
wake up.

So what is our solution? keeping women in glass bottles until marriage or make them wear chastity belts, funny how "Abortion" resurface as a "Woman" issue. over and over again.

I have been awake a long time ago when I made sure my children learned the fact of life and its consequences as a good mother and parent.

If that worked for me I guess I am proud to be a "Liberal" like you call me, and the only way to keep children from engaging in early sex and stop or diminish teen pregnancies.

I will be waiting for your solution.

[edit on 31-8-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Your ways have done nothing but create this problem. The problem was created purposefully, so that while the moral foundation is destroyed, the value of the most innocent human's life is lessened to nothing.

How though, Thomas? Exactly? The very second you make something taboo, you're making it that little bit more attractive to an entire generation of people. We can use other examples of this; there are much lower rates of sex crimes and abortion in places where sex isn't seen as something bad, or dirty, or shameful, but is accepted as something natural and healthy. This tends to go hand in hand with a form of education which focuses on the facts of the matter rather than the religiopolitical considerations therein.

You know as well as I do that your "education" has done nothing to lessen the problem. You want to solve it? Look at how it was done several decades ago, before the social reengineering was kicked into high gear.

That might be more connected with how that education is put in place, and our reluctance to actually face reality and instead pretending that if we tell them it's bad, somehow our teens will magically decide not to have sex. That is where the problem lies.

. Try and break out of the mind control. I had to; I was caught in the other side's control, until I realized what was going on. What's worse, I didn't used to be in it, but was recaught after 9/11.

Why is it automatically those with whom you disagree who are caught in the midst of mind-control?

The only conspiracy here is the taking over of women rights, by politicians backed by religious groups.

Taking the sources as in doctors to have safe abortions will make women seek abortions underground.

But then again many think is the women fault for getting pregnant so if they die in a coat hanger abortion she deserve it for been a sinner, an like I said before is always a women issue.

If it was a male issue we will not be having this discussion abortion would be free for all of them.

No body is taking religion or changing anything that is what is been portrayed by religious groups they are been "persecute" by the "liberals" and "liberals" are destroying the "moral fabric" of this nation.

Guess what the only thing been persecuted here is women rights.

marg6043 says:

Is just another way to target abortion rights in this country....

Rights? Certainly there are no abortions "rights" enshrined in the Constitution; when and if Roe v Wade goes away, the abortion "rights" will probably join the now-lost "right" to own slaves or to beat one's wife.

when politicians fueled by religious groups lobbyist can not do it at a national level the state is usually targeted first in hopes to take it all the way to the top.

Well, I know that no one reads the Constitution any more, but I seem to remember Amendment X saying "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So why shouldn't such laws be promulgated in the states rather than the federal level?

Girls as young as 13 and up become pregnant every year in this country at records levels.

Now who is at fault? the government? the Parents? Society?

No question in my mind: it's the parents. I had a legal and moral obligation for my son until he turned 18, and so does every parent of every kid in the country.

I put the blame on the tabu that our nations hide under to avoid the proper teaching of facts of live in our schools.

Not I; that's a copout. You are the most important role model in your child's life; don't try to weasel out of your responsibilities by blaming "society"

The subject of pregnancy should be make aware to children as young as 10 years old.

I agree. But it is our job as parents to do so, not the government's.

But as usual religious groups and politicians are too full of BS to do anything about it but preaching morals and abstinence, never targeting the subject itself.

Rubbish. Why aren't you, as a parent, doing anything about it?

[edit on 31-8-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street


Rubbish. Why aren't you, as a parent, doing anything about it?

[edit on 31-8-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Obviously in your haste to pin your opinion of my post, you didn't even read the entire thread.

But that is ok as long as it makes your post very righteous.

By the way on that question I quote, from your entire post, I have an answer.

I already did, see my children are young adults now, the teen ages years are over for me and sex or pregnancy was not an issue because I did my job and church was not involve.

The same way that the government is involve in women "issues" then they are exposing themselves to be blame with what is wrong in our country.

Why? because obviously Religious groups approach are completely "inadequate"

If the approach they used in Churches to influence parents on parenting is not working then we most examine what the problem is.

Teen pregnancy is an big problem either parents are failing or the Church is.

When politics and religion takes the rights to dictate "morality" and "behavior" then they are the ones to blame for the results.

Sex education has to come from somewhere and obviously somebody is not doing a good job or is using the wrong approach.

Now what are you doing about it?



[edit on 31-8-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You know as well as I do that your "education" has done nothing to lessen the problem.

TC, everything I can find indicates that teen pregnancy AND teen abortion rates have declined steadily over the past few decades and education is the number one factor attributed to that decline.

I don't know where you're getting your information. Do you?

Adolescent Pregnancy and Childbearing

The trend toward lower adolescent birthrates and pregnancy rates over the past 25 years is widespread and is occurring across the industrialized world, suggesting that the reasons for this general trend are broader than factors limited to any one country: increased importance of education, increased motivation of young people to achieve higher levels of education and training, and greater centrality of goals other than motherhood and family formation for young women.

Abortion Statistics
On page 7 of this in-depth study, not only is the teen pregnancy rate decreasing, but also the teen abortion rate.

Still wondering about this solution you spoke of... Sorry, but I'm curious.



[edit on 31-8-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Yes we are falling on the teens birth rate but we are still higher compare to the rest of the industrialized countries.

In 2000, the total number of teen pregnancies in the United States was 821,810 (84 pregnancies per 1,000 people). Compare this with Canada whose total rate of teen pregnancies for 2000 was 38,600 (38 pregnancies per 1,000 people). Many other western industrialized countries, such as Sweden and France, have even lower teen pregnancy rates than Canada. When compared to other countries, it easy to understand why the United States is considered to have a serious problem when it comes to teen pregnancy.

One of the reasons like Benevolent Heretic pointed out is the raise of sexual education and birth control options.

Now we have to see that while this is a good thing abortion rates increased since the 90's.

In the United States, the 18 - 19 year-old age group has the highest rate of pregnancy followed by the 15 - 17 year-old age group. However, 15 – 17 year-old pregnancy rates dropped by as much as 23% between 1992 and 2000, while the rate for 18 to 19 year-olds only dropped by 11%.

Taking in consideration the negativity about birth control options and religious right I wonder how long a good trend will last.

www.pregnancy-info.net...

[edit on 31-8-2005 by marg6043]

[edit on 31-8-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Rights? Certainly there are no abortions "rights" enshrined in the Constitution; when and if Roe v Wade goes away, the abortion "rights" will probably join the now-lost "right" to own slaves or to beat one's wife.

You've compared what a woman does with her own body to slavery.. but how is forcing a woman to carry a rapist's baby not slavery? Do you think she be chained up for the pregnancy if abortion becomes illegal again?

AUSTIN - Texas doctors who perform abortions without parental approval or after the third trimester could face capital murder charges because of a new law that takes effect this week, a prosecutors group says.

(bolded parts done by me)

Tinkleflower was asking where I got that part about a lack of consent on the doctor's part. The bolded portion is where I got that from. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something completely in the wording, but that's what I read.

Chuck Stevenson:
You cannot on one hand say "Abortion is against God and should be illegal" without making a provision for the care and feeding of the swelling human population that your conscience creates.

You have a point here. Overpopulation is definitely a problem, in my opinion. I just don't think abortions are the solution. Birth control and common sense are the solutions. I know there's a bunch of debate over when exactly a fetus becomes a human being, (at conception, at birth, at some point in between?) but if people would just grow up and use common sense, we'd have a lot less unwanted pregnancies in the first place, and this issue would become almost moot, arising only when the preventative measures fail.

Couples that use birth control, especially more than one type, like the pill + condoms, are quite unlikely to have unwanted pregnancies. People need to take responsibility for themselves, and for the next generation.

Benevolent Heretic
The answer is education. Not only education on how people get pregnant and birth control, but a real life education on what taking care of a baby is like. A real out-in-the-open education about being pregnant, abortion, adoption, changing a stinky diaper (7 times a day), childbirth, the stress and responsibilities of having a child, all of it. Only when the teen sees the full picture are they going to decide for themselves not to get pregnant. If we continue to hide the issue under cloak of embarrassment, shame and 'sin' the status quo will continue.

Absolutely. Education is the key. That, and taking responsibility for oneself.

Tinkeflower
For what it's worth, there have been teen pregnancies, and abortions, for millenia.

Very true. Maybe it's time we started doing something about it? If people would simply show some maturity about sex and use some protection, the number of people who would want abortions would drop dramatically.

After reading the comments after mine, I think this law is targeting the wrong people. Holding doctors legally responsible for abortions isn't going to do anything. People are just going to go to doctors who circumvent the law, or else try to perform abortions on their own or with the help of a non-M.D. (very dangerous!) or else go out of state to get their abortion.

I don't know how it is in the States, but here in Canada from about grade 5 until grade 9 we had a health class once a week that included, amongst other things, issues like teenage sex and pregnancy and STDs. Most of it was common sense stuff, but then, that's exactly what we need, here. In high school, there was another mandatory semestered course in grade 11 where we also covered the same sort of stuff. Anyone who got even close to graduating high school in my school district should have come away knowing enough about the subject to avoid trouble.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
Tinkleflower was asking where I got that part about a lack of consent on the doctor's part. The bolded portion is where I got that from. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something completely in the wording, but that's what I read.

Yeah, I really do think that's referring to parental consent for performing a termination on a minor (14 year old, for example)..so they're asking that it becomes illegal for a doctor to perform the procedure on that 14 year old unless her parents give consent. That's a tricky area, because obviously there's a need for patient-doctor confidentiality, but also, that 14 year old isn't legally able to make those decisions for herself....so whilst her parents ultimately have the say over her medical treatment, it's critical that her input is part of the decision-making process.

As it stands, a doctor can currently (in most states) perform this procedure without the parents being notified, which may or may not be a good thing. What is critical though is that the teen feels that she can trust her doctor.

Very true. Maybe it's time we started doing something about it? If people would simply show some maturity about sex and use some protection, the number of people who would want abortions would drop dramatically.

Absolutely.

Riley says

You've compared what a woman does with her own body to slavery...

Actually, Riley, I didn't compare one to another; you did.

What I said was that "rights" which are not enshrined in the Constitution (and, alas, even those which are) tend to go away as peoples' views on what is "right" and "wrong" change.

..... but how is forcing a woman to carry a rapist's baby not slavery?

Uhhh ... because slavery is owning a person and refusing to allow a woman to have an abortion is not owning a person?

Do you think she be chained up for the pregnancy if abortion becomes illegal again?

No I don't, but then, I don't think abortion should be illegal. Although I consider abortion a moral "bad thing" -- a "sin", as it were -- I don't believe I should force my morality down your throat.

My point is that what is considered a "right" today was not always considered a "right"; and, given the apparent direction that American opinion is going, will probably not be considered a "right" in another ten or fifteen years.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Riley says

You've compared what a woman does with her own body to slavery...

Actually, Riley, I didn't compare one to another; you did.

You compared the right to abortion to the past 'right' to own a slave. I did not take your words out of context.

Uhhh ... because slavery is owning a person and refusing to allow a woman to have an abortion is not owning a person?

Forcing a woman to become an incubator would be taking away or free will so would be very similar to slavery.. actually it's more like treating women like cattle.

No I don't, but then, I don't think abortion should be illegal. Although I consider abortion a moral "bad thing" -- a "sin", as it were -- I don't believe I should force my morality down your throat.

Noted.

My point is that what is considered a "right" today was not always considered a "right"; and, given the apparent direction that American opinion is going, will probably not be considered a "right" in another ten or fifteen years.

In an other ten or fifteen years women might be able to have their embyos frozen and re-emplanted at a more practical time [probably give it thirty] or there may be better contraceptive methods that would illiminate the need for abortion. Till then I doubt it will be seen universally as wrong as only the woman can access whether she can adequately provide for a child and many will always respect her final judgement regardless of how many prolifers influence politics and media.

Setting the concept of "sin" aside, for a second...

It takes two humans, one male and one female, to conceive. One can't do it without the other.

I've read many threads related to abortion on these boards, and I think I'm one of the few here who is concerned about the potential rights of the father, too...and that surprised me.

Yes, the woman obviously has a much greater physical attachment to a fetus/embryo....but does the father have no rights at all in this?

If we ignore his opinion, aren't we effectively trampling over his rights the same way we're fighting for the rights of the female?

I'm not implying that if a father wishes, he should be able to force the woman to have a termination, or force her to carry the child to term...but at the same time, doesn't he have some say in this?

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
I've read many threads related to abortion on these boards, and I think I'm one of the few here who is concerned about the potential rights of the father, too...and that surprised me.

Yes, the woman obviously has a much greater physical attachment to a fetus/embryo....but does the father have no rights at all in this?

When our culture starts demanding that men have the same obligations and responsibilty to sex, pregnancy [and contraception] then perhaps their rights and opinions may carry more weight in regards to abortion. It would also make for a nice change for pro-lifers to be screaming about these immoral men having sinful sex instead of just the women all the time. I understand what you mean though.. my cousin had a gf extort money from him by threatening abortion, previous to her getting pregnant I was forever telling him to "Where a $@&% franger!!" as his taste in girls was suspect. I asked him why he didn't listen to me "She said she was on the pill." Men are easily stupified when it comes to sex.

[edit on 2-9-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

When our culture starts demanding that men have the same obligations and responsibilty to to sex, pregnancy [and contraception] then perhaps their rights and opinions may carry more weight in regards to abortion.

Just out of curiosity, does this apply to father's rights after birth, too? Do they only have certain rights in certain situations?

(I'm not being a pain, I'm genuinely curious as to when father's rights apply in your opinion)

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Just out of curiosity, does this apply to father's rights after birth, too? Do they only have certain rights in certain situations?

(I'm not being a pain, I'm genuinely curious as to when father's rights apply in your opinion)

They apply when they are actually around.. I don't understand what point you are making as after it's born it's not inside her anymore. The kids existence is no longer a 'womens issue' then.