The Israelites were pharaohs of Egypt

.



>>Would you do us all a favor and just post a simple timeline of what your theory is?

BC
1800 Change of zodiac from Taurus to Aries
1800ish Abraham (Pharaoh Mamaybre) tries to promote Aries (hence Shepherd Kings)
1700 Stand-off between Theban bull venerators and Avaris sheep 'worshippers'.
1620 Thera eruption, causes theological strife in Egypt. Civil war starts.
1580 Final battles between Ahmose I and Jacoba (time of Jacob)
1580 First and greatest exodus of the Hyksos. (hence biblical plagues etc
1500 Joseph returns to Egypt to reclaim throne of Lower Egypt. Becomes prime minister and high priest of Heliopolis.
1400ish Like the Scottish Stewarts; the family of Joseph's prime ministers bided their time as stewards and eventually became the kings (Stewarts). The Amenhotep pharaohs used the Hyk glyph once more.
1350 Akhenaton and Moses (Aaron and Moses) become king and high priest. (Moses cannot become king because of speech impedement.)
1330s Akhenaton thrown out of Egypt - no evidence of their death. Manetho clearly states that Akhenaton and Moses left Amarna and went to Avaris in the Delta. This is the second, smaller exodus. The two accounts have been merged in the biblical version.

Quote:
The high priest who framed their constitution and their laws was a native of Heliopolis named Osarseph (Son of Osiris) ... but when he joined his people he changed his name and was called Moses.
End quote fr54

Note that is was the biblical Moses who framed the laws of the Israelites. Manetho also clearly states that all of this happened during the reign of Akhenaton





>>quote: As it happens, the brother of Akhenaton was called Moses (Tuthmoses).

>>He has a grandfather of the name Tuthmoses. He has a (possible) brother named Semenkare

He also had a brother named Tuthmoses, said to have died otherwise Akhenaton would not have been king, but there is no evidence of this. In actual fact, TuthMoses did not become king due to a speech impedement.




>>You're also basing the "moses" bit on our modern pronunciation based on
>>spellings of convenience.

Yes, the Egyptian was more like DjehutMoses but clearly the Egyptian name Moses and the biblical name Moses were one and the same. You use Mes, but the Egyptians often used two s's, giving Meses. But since vowels are not given in Egyptian or Hebrew, your initial 'e' is simply a modern convention, and the original was Moses.




>> There's no match here with the Bible story.
>> I may be a Pagan, but even I know the Bible well enough. Moses is the son of Amran
>>of the tribe of Levi, and the Bible has an accounting of his lineage. It's a "no match"
>>with the known lineate of Thuthmoses.

Read the story again. How did Moses suddenly become a prince of Egypt? Of course he was the king's son. The bit about being adrift on the Nile is simply a retelling of the Osirian myth, so that Moses would be a Son of Osiris. That is why Manetho calls him Osarseph (Son of Osiris).





>>Furthermore, Moses is born into a monotheistic faith from a family of traditional priests of a single
>>deity. This is most certainly not true of Akhenaton.

You think Akhenaton made all this up by himself? The Aton was a long-standing deity in Egypt, so there must have been a number of monotheists around. Akhenaton just promoted Aton into the state deity.




>>Niether Tuthmoses nor Akhenaten did not flee the country, flee to Midian, marry and have
>>children and work as a shepherd for 40 years (until he was the age of 80), and he sure didn't
>>lead people away into another land.

He did all of these.
Akhenaton fled from 'Egypt' proper to a barren patch of land in Middle Egypt - why did he do this?

The 40 years business is simply a Masonic initiation - look at all the leaders and kings of Israel, and you will see that they all lived, wandered or reigned for 40 years.

Akhenaton most probably did lead his people to another land. As Manetho said, Moses (Osarseph), during the time of Akhenaton, led his people from the eastbank quarries (Amarna) to Avaris. They were then chased from Avaris to Palestine.






>>The Jews were monotheists long before Akhenaten was born.
>>He couldn't possibly have turned them into monotheists.

And the Atonists were monotheists long before Akhenaton was born. Akhenaton just made it a state religion, so he turned everyone into a monotheist Atonist.






>> That is why Akhenaton's god Aton (Adon) became the Israelite god called Adhon.
>>Sorry...no match. 'Adonai' is from the Ugratic word meaning "father" or "ruler":

And Akhenaton was the 'Only Son of Aton', which rather makes the Aton a father.





>> Edom means the Red Land - the original Egyptian name for Lower Egypt.
>>To-Mehu (and later Kehmet) is the original Egyptian name for Lower Egypt. Niether means "red."
>>"Deshert" (meaning 'red') was a name for Upper Egypt, originally called " Shemau."

You are wrong here. There were Two Lands of Egypt, the Upper Egyptians (south) wore the White Crown, the Lower Egyptians (north) wore the Red Crown.
The Egyptian dictionary I have says:
Djesert: The Red Crown that symbolise sovereignty of Lower Egypt.

To me it is clear that Esau gained sovereignty over the Delta, not Edom in Palestine. This was a dynastic struggle between two princes of Egypt, not two shepherds with a dozen starving sheep apiece. That is why Josephus says that both Jacob and Esau had large armies.

You have still not addressed the problem as to how lowly shepherds, like Abraham and Jacob, had massive armies. What is your explanation for Abraham having an army of 32,000 , men? Even allowing for exaggeration, this was a sizeable army that only the Egyptians and later Persians could muster.




Cheers
Ralph Ellis
Edfu Books




.

Thanks for this thread, I was trying to figure out this connection with Moses and Osiris. Plus the many other connections I see. I am going next week to the exibit in Dayton Ohio, at the Art Institute, and have been reading up on this.
Quest for Immortality

I have been away from ATS for a while, and now I remember why I love it so much!!

Thanks again!

.
Dear phoenix,


>>I forget the name of the town that Akhenaten moved the capitol to, but I do
>>know that it was shortly thereafter deserted.

The name was Akhetaton, now more commonly called Amarna. (Manetho's 'quarry' on the eastbank of the Nile.)




>>Seeing that this is the first recorded incident of monotheism, I think it only logical to
>>assume that some of these early adherents, who most likely were to become exiles,
>>were to spread this faith, and perhaps pick up converts along their sojourn through the desert.

Precisely. This is how Akhenaton's Hymn to the Aten found its way into Psalm 104 (and the Genesis story). How the Instructions of Amenemopet found their way into the Book of Proverbs - (the 30 saying in Proverbs 22:20). How the Maxims of Ani found their way into the Lord's prayer and the teachings of Jesus (especially the ones about not speaking too loudly to the gods). Why Jesus was said to be the Egyptian False Prophet. Why Jacob had a ladder.

It is also why Jews wear the side-lock of hair, which originally denoted a priest of Heliopolis. Why they nod towards their god. Why they wore earrings. Why they perform circumcision. Why offerings of daily bread and burned meat were used. Why they have dietry prohibitions. Why they have a festival of lights. Why they have a sacred mountain that god lived inside (Mt Sinai is the Great Pyramid). Why all temples and churches face to the east, to greet Ra (Aton). Why mosques use the traditional four pillars of heaven (minaretts). Why churches have steeples. Why the Israelites and Christians have sacred trees (the Asert tree). etc: etc: etc:

Look closely at all of Judao-Christian culture and liturgy, and you will find an Egyptian antecedent.



Cheers
Ralph Ellis
Edfu Books



PS Glad you liked it Tesla, ''





.

Dear Tesla,


If you are going to the Dayton Institute, look out for the Tanis artifacts. I will be writing about those soon, and they are significant to this story.


Cheers
Ralph Ellis
Edfu Books

I'm headed out of town, so this will be my last post until Monday... sorry it's a quick one.

Firstly, thanks for the timeline.

Originally posted by ralphellis2

BC
1800 Change of zodiac from Taurus to Aries
1800ish Abraham (Pharaoh Mamaybre) tries to promote Aries (hence Shepherd Kings)
1700 Stand-off between Theban bull venerators and Avaris sheep 'worshippers'.
1620 Thera eruption, causes theological strife in Egypt. Civil war starts.
1580 Final battles between Ahmose I and Jacoba (time of Jacob)
1580 First and greatest exodus of the Hyksos. (hence biblical plagues etc

1500 Joseph returns to Egypt to reclaim throne of Lower Egypt. Becomes prime minister and high priest of Heliopolis.
1400ish Like the Scottish Stewarts; the family of Joseph's prime ministers bided their time as stewards and eventually became the kings (Stewarts). The Amenhotep pharaohs used the Hyk glyph once more.
1350 Akhenaton and Moses (Aaron and Moses) become king and high priest. (Moses cannot become king because of speech impedement.)
1330s Akhenaton thrown out of Egypt - no evidence of their death. Manetho clearly states that Akhenaton and Moses left Amarna and went to Avaris in the Delta. This is the second, smaller exodus. The two accounts have been merged in the biblical version.

Let me deal with just this (because I'm in a hurry... and one other point. I'll try to get to the rest on Tuesday.

Now -- dates:

1800 Change of zodiac from Taurus to Aries

How did you determine this? Using the patterns of stars in the skies or using some sort of astrological calculation?

Why are you using the constellations of the Greeks and Romans rather than those of the Egyptians?

1800ish Abraham (Pharaoh Mamaybre) tries to promote Aries (hence Shepherd Kings)

I don't find Mamaybre in any pharonic list. Furthermore:
* the name Abram ("field of Abram" in specific) only appears in Egypt after 1000 BC (918 BC, Karnak inscriptions.)
* Israelites were shepherds long before the time of Abraham. And they were monotheists since the beginning of their religion (Adam.)
* There is a well-established lineage for Abraham that includes mention of towns and lands. He was born in Ur, in Chaldea and later moves to Haran. These locations are known to archaeologists. The rulers of Ur (and the royal family) are not given the title Pharaoh.
* the name Abram/Abraham occurs only in Babylon at the "age of the patriarchs" (1800 BC or so.)

1700 Stand-off between Theban bull venerators and Avaris sheep 'worshippers'.

No match, there. Egypt splits in the first Intermediate Period, but is reunited by 1970 BC. Montu, the bull-deity, enjoys brief popularity during the 11th dynasty but is subordinated to Aten by the 12th dynasty.

The ram and ram-headed deities actually far older than Montu and Apis -- by well over a thousand years.
touregypt.net...

1620 Thera eruption, causes theological strife in Egypt. Civil war starts.

There's actually no evidence of this. Egyptian policies in religion were the same as the Greek and Roman: deities were simply assimilated or co-worshipped. Unlike the monotheists, no one warred over whose god was best.

The only theological fracas involved Ahkenaten's insistance that people had to worship only one deity and had to give up their other gods.

Now, about 1600, the Egyptians begin rebelling against the Hyksos, but there is no evidence it's theological.

1580 Final battles between Ahmose I and Jacoba (time of Jacob)

The timeline is about 60 years out of joint. 1522 is when Ahmose I broke the Hyksos rule and destroyed their city of Negreb. The contemporary Egyptian account of his life doesn't mention an exodus, but rather capture and subjugation of Hyksos cities.

He does, however, attribute his success to Amon:
www.touregypt.net...

1580 First and greatest exodus of the Hyksos. (hence biblical plagues etc

No evidence of exodus. Josephus, etc, work from the Torah but there is no record on the Egyptian side.. or in other civilizations.

1500 Joseph returns to Egypt to reclaim throne of Lower Egypt. Becomes prime minister and high priest of Heliopolis.

Why would he become High Priest to a god of a pagan city? The deity worshipped by the Hebrews was very different than the Egyptian one, and there's no evidence for a sudden change in the worship of Amun. Supposedly Joseph forbids the worship of all other deities, and we have plehty of evidence that at this time, multiple deities were worshipped.

1400ish Like the Scottish Stewarts; the family of Joseph's prime minters bided their time as stewards and eventually became the kings (Stewarts). The Amenhotep pharaohs used the Hyk glyph once more.

Source? The only 'hek/heq' in Egytology is a primordial deity, not much worshipped.

1350 Akhenaton and Moses (Aaron and Moses) become king and high priest. (Moses cannot become king because of speech impedement.)

Aaron is a priest and never becomes king/pharoah. Aaron, in fact, goes along on the exodus. Ahkenaton never leaves the land.

Ahkenaten's physical traits would have barred him from approaching the Ark or entering the temple. The Jews of the time had a prohibition against people with deformities entering the main part of the temple, and they had prohibitions against shaving (trimming hair was fine. Shaving was out.)

And then there's the family.

Moses marries Zipporah, daughtr of Jethro. He has two sons: Gershom
and Elizer (Exodus 2:21-22)

Moses is not married to Nefertiti. Ahkenaten has six daughters, whose names are known.

Ahkenaten's known wives (from inscriptions) are not a match for Moses. In addition to Nefertiti, he also married Kiya *and* his own daughter (third one), on whom he sires his daughter-granddaughter, Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit. It is also suggested that his half-brother Smenkhare was another of his lovers, along with his own mother.

(description of Amarna North Tomb I, with details showing Akhenaten's family, along with their names inscribed in the paintings)
www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk...

This was pretty standard fare for the Egyptian royal houses and these names and dates and lineages are well-known.


Furthermore, in the tomb of Ay (his chief minister and the one who succeeds Tutankhamen), there is a long hymn to Aten where Ahkenaten is extolled as the ONLY intercessor to heaven and where it is stated that one has to believe in Akhenaten to get into heaven with Aten. Believing in Osiris and the other gods won't help you:
www.sis.gov.eg...

Moses *never* would have claimed that he was a deity and the Great Intercessor.

1330s Akhenaton thrown out of Egypt - no evidence of their death.

I think you need to have a second look at the documents and writings about the tombs in the Valley of the Kings. He did die in his 16th regnal year, and his smashed sarcophagus as well as ushebtis were found in his tomb in Amarna.
www.sis.gov.eg...

That's not the complete evidence, of course. That's some of the main evidence, though.

Manetho clearly states that Akhenaton and Moses left Amarna and went to Avaris in the Delta. This is the second, smaller exodus. The two accounts have been merged in the biblical version.

Remember, he's writing this 1500 years after the fact, based on documents that are not primary sources and of a culture different than the one he writes about.

No match.


And fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnally.................

Yes, the Egyptian was more like DjehutMoses but clearly the Egyptian name Moses and the biblical name Moses were one and the same.

No, not if you know the languages. Although they are both Semetic languages, they are as different as English and German. You're making an association based on sound and region.

This makes as much sense as equating the English words "Knock" and "worst" with the German word, "Knackwurst" and trying to maintain it means a sausage made by a skilled sausage maker (knack) out of the least desirable parts of the animal (worst.)

The languages and the root words are demonstratably very different.


No match.

Dear All,



I shall only deal with the major points, as we will get bogged down otherwise.



>>Unlike the monotheists, no one warred over whose god was best.
>>Now, about 1600, the Egyptians begin rebelling against the Hyksos, but
>>there is no evidence it's theological.

Not so, the whole of this war was theological, that is why Abraham went down into Egypt (Thebes) to spy on the priests there. In the Tempest Stele there is great play about restoring the temples and tombs - why restore them if there had been no theological strife?




>>The timeline is about 60 years out of joint. 1522 is when Ahmose I broke the
>>Hyksos rule and destroyed their city of Negreb. The contemporary Egyptian
>>account of his life doesn't mention an exodus, but rather capture and subjugation
>>of Hyksos cities.

Latest carbon dating says 1575 BC, check your sources. Manetho clearly states that there was an exodus, as does the Bible.




>>Why would he become High Priest to a god of a pagan city?
>>The deity worshipped by the Hebrews was very different than the
>>Egyptian one, and there's no evidence for a sudden change in the
>>worship of Amun.

Why would Joseph marry a daughter of the High Priest of Heliopolis, if this religion was all so strange and 'pagan' to him?? Yet the Torah says he did. Clearly the religion of Egypt was not so 'pagan' to the Israelites, because Joseph was Egyptian himself (an exiled Hyksos-Egyptian-Israelite). Yes, he was monotheist, one of the first of the Atonists, but it is obvious that he was being more cautious than the later Akhenaton was. We are taught to be cautious.




>>Ahkenaten's physical traits would have barred him from approaching the
>>Ark or entering the temple.

Akhenaton was not deformed, as his many busts show. The presumed 'deformity' is a Masonic theological device.




>>Ahkenaten has six daughters, whose names are known.

And no sons - hence the biblical rumour that the midwives were killing all the Israelite boys just before the exodus.





>>Hymn to Aten where Ahkenaten is extolled as the ONLY intercessor to heaven and where it is >>stated that one has to believe in Akhenaten to get into heaven with Aten.
>>Moses *never* would have claimed that he was a deity and the Great Intercessor.

Sure about that? Jesus did, he was the Only Begotten Son - which is a corruption of Akhenaton's title of Only One of Aton.





>>I think you need to have a second look at the documents and writings about the
>>tombs in the Valley of the Kings. He did die in his 16th regnal year, and his smashed
>>sarcophagus as well as ushebtis were found in his tomb in Amarna.

Not sure about the ushabtis, Aldred does not mention them. I would imagine that this is another invention of Wikipedia, which invents many things. Smashed sarcophagii mean nothing and Akhenaton's canoptic jars appear unused. His magic bricks were found in another tomb entirely (tomb 55). The most compelling 'evidence' for the death of Akhenaton is tomb 55, but the body here was too young, so that cannot be him. The evidence from Manetho and the Bible strongly indicates that Akhenaton left Amarna and went to Avaris (initially), and there is no evidence for his death in Amarna. Likewise there is no evidence for Nefertiti's death here - the only ushabti of Nef was bought in a market in Cairo!





>>Name of Moses
>>This makes as much sense as equating the English words "Knock" and
>>"worst" with the German word, "Knackwurst"

Now you are just being silly. We have a number of kings and princes of Egypt who were called Moses (meaning son), and then we have another prince and army commander who was also called Moses - but for some strange reason this Moses has nothing to do with all the other princes called Moses and his name means something completely different.

Never mind that the Hyksos-Israelite leaders were prime minister of Egypt and a prince and chief army commander, and that having been in Egypt for centuries the Hyksos-Israelites are likely to all have spoken Egyptian anyway - they apparently speak a different language that just happens to sound the same as Egyptian. I think they call this self-delusion.




P.S Manetho is only writing 1,000 years after the Akhenaton exodus.


Regards
Ralph Ellis

Some quick replies -- sorry to do a fast post and run, but I have to go in to work in a few minutes.

Originally posted by ralphellis2
>>Unlike the monotheists, no one warred over whose god was best.
>>Now, about 1600, the Egyptians begin rebelling against the Hyksos, but
>>there is no evidence it's theological.

Not so, the whole of this war was theological, that is why Abraham went down into Egypt (Thebes) to spy on the priests there. In the Tempest Stele there is great play about restoring the temples and tombs - why restore them if there had been no theological strife?

Because there had been recorded looting and theivery and damage from wars.

When damage is done for THEOLOGICAL reasons (as with Hatshepsut and Akhenaten), then what they do is come in and carve off the names of the offenders. And they don't repair them afterwards.

>>The timeline is about 60 years out of joint. 1522 is when Ahmose I broke the
>>Hyksos rule and destroyed their city of Negreb. The contemporary Egyptian
>>account of his life doesn't mention an exodus, but rather capture and subjugation
>>of Hyksos cities.

Latest carbon dating says 1575 BC, check your sources. Manetho clearly states that there was an exodus, as does the Bible.

There's disagreement with some of this in some sources... we can agree that the dates aren't solid and I'll certainly check this. However, two ancient books giving an event isn't really proof.

There's a number of ancient books on Arthur detailing the courts of King Fisherman but this isn't proof that this character lived.

>>Why would he become High Priest to a god of a pagan city?
>>The deity worshipped by the Hebrews was very different than the
>>Egyptian one, and there's no evidence for a sudden change in the
>>worship of Amun.

Why would Joseph marry a daughter of the High Priest of Heliopolis, if this religion was all so strange and 'pagan' to him?? Yet the Torah says he did.

It says he marries Asenath, daughter of Poti-phera, priest of On. There is no Egyptian god named "On", by the way. There's an Onuris but he's a god of war (sort of)
i-cias.com...

Clearly the religion of Egypt was not 'pagan' to the Israelites, because Joseph was Egyptian himself (an exiled Hyksos-Egyptian-Israelite).

You should add that this is YOUR interpretation only. You still haven't made the connection between the Hyksos and the Hebrews.

>>Ahkenaten's physical traits would have barred him from approaching the
>>Ark or entering the temple.

Akhenaton was not deformed, as his many busts show. The presumed 'deformity' is a Masonic theological device.

I take it you haven't looked at the bas reliefs of him? He and his family are depicted fairly realistically, and he is shown with pronounced gynocomasty (feminized breasts.)

There's a nice long rant about the handicapped and deformed not being allowed in the temple or in the presence of God in the book of Leviticus (please note that these are instructions given TO Aaron BY Moses):

21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. (21:16-23)
21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

He's shown leaning on a crutch in at least one panel. He also shaves his head, eyebrows, and body (which is against the laws of the god of the Bible)

There is no way that this man could be any of the Biblical figures.

>>Ahkenaten has six daughters, whose names are known.

And no sons - hence the biblical rumour that the midwives were killing all the Israelite boys just before the exodus.

Do you have any DIRECT documentation for this? "Rumors"??? From where?

>>Hymn to Aten where Ahkenaten is extolled as the ONLY intercessor to heaven and where it is >>stated that one has to believe in Akhenaten to get into heaven with Aten.
>>Moses *never* would have claimed that he was a deity and the Great Intercessor.

Sure about that? Jesus did, he was the Only Begotten Son - which is a corruption of Akhenaton's title of Only One of Aton.

Quite sure to the first. The Hebrews would have stoned him.

Your second point isn't a terribly strong one. Lots of people have claimed to be the only son of a deity. Moses never makes any such claim in any literature. Ahkenaten, however, does and more than once.

>>I think you need to have a second look at the documents and writings about the
>>tombs in the Valley of the Kings. He did die in his 16th regnal year, and his smashed
>>sarcophagus as well as ushebtis were found in his tomb in Amarna.

Not sure about the ushabtis, Aldred does not mention them.

Many other people mention them and his tomb as well:
www.narmer.pl...

This article mentions that the ushebtis of that reign have a specific verse to Aten engraved on them and shows one:
touregypt.net...

Smashed sarcophagii mean nothing and Akhenaton's canoptic jars appear unused. His magic bricks were found in another tomb entirely (tomb 55). The most compelling 'evidence' for the death of Akhenaton is tomb 55, but the body here was too young, so that cannot be him.

Given the frequency of tomb robberies and desecrations, that's not unusual. However, they do not make tombs for people that they depose. Or grave goods.

The evidence from Manetho and the Bible strongly indicates that Akhenaton left Amarna and went to Avaris (initially), and there is no evidence for his death in Amarna.

There isn't any evidence for Hebrew deaths there. And there's no evidence of any Hebrew literature written in hieroglyphics.

Likewise there is no evidence for Nefertiti's death here - the only ushabti of Nef was bought in a market in Cairo!

The lack of provenance, here, doesn't really help your case or prove it, either.

There's a lot of other evidence showing no match, including the lineage of the family of Ahkenaten :
www.touregypt.net...

The fact that

>>Name of Moses
>>This makes as much sense as equating the English words "Knock" and
>>"worst" with the German word, "Knackwurst"

Now you are just being silly.

An absurd example, yes, but an example of what a lot of people try to do in "proving" that one thing is related to another. I'm sure that you, in learning another language, have come across words that sound very much like our English and mean something very different than our English word does. In a large number of cases, the words are derived from a language that has a common root with English.

And that is my point. "Moses" in Egyptian means "born of" (and might also refer to female.) "Moses" in Hebrew comes from root words meaning "drawn out of/pulled out of". Trying to make both of them mean "son of" can only be done if you decide to completely ignore the languages and cultures.

And that's a dangerous approach because there are (literally) thousands upon thousands of examples to support the "Moses in Hebrew means pulled out of" and "Moses in Egyptian means born of" -- not only in names, but in the written prayers and stories of both cultures.

Never mind that the Hyksos-Israelite leaders were prime minister of Egypt and a prince and chief army commander, and that having been in Egypt for centuries the Hyksos-Israelites are likely to all have spoken Egyptian anyway - they apparently speak a different language that just happens to sound the same as Egyptian. I think they call this self-delusion.

Actually, they call it "linguistics." It's one of the cues that Biblical scholars use in research. It also highlights another problem with your theory -- if this is Moses doing this, the first books of the Bible are attributed to Moses. But they're not written in Egyptian hieroglyphics (which Tutmoses and others used) but rather in Hebrew. And the languages were quite different by that time (as can be seen by directly reading the documents.)

P.S Manetho is only writing 1,000 years after the Akhenaton exodus.

And this makes him accurate? If I asked you to do a long history of events back in 1000 AD, how well could you do it? He's only as accurate as his sources. Furthermore, you're working not directly from him, but using parts of three people who initially referred to him... there's no copy of his work existing today and you are taking on faith that the people who refer to his book (like Josephus) are not doing a "spin" of their own and that the copies they have are accurate.

...and that's clearly impossible since they all have significant differences.



[edit on 10-9-2005 by Byrd]

Originally posted by ralphellis2
It is also why Jews wear the side-lock of hair, which originally denoted a priest of Heliopolis.

The only ones who wore the sidelock (which was very different from the Jewish curls) were the sem priests who officiated t funerals.

Why they nod towards their god. Why they wore earrings. Why they perform circumcision. Why offerings of daily bread and burned meat were used. Why they have dietry prohibitions. Why they have a festival of lights. Why they have a sacred mountain that god lived inside (Mt Sinai is the Great Pyramid).

There's really no match for any of those and the pyramids aren't analagous to Mt. Sinai. They believed the pharoah-gods lived in heaven and not inside mountains.

And the diets... whew. No match there!

Why all temples and churches face to the east, to greet Ra (Aton). Why mosques use the traditional four pillars of heaven (minaretts). Why churches have steeples. Why the Israelites and Christians have sacred trees (the Asert tree). etc: etc: etc:

You can't just collect facts and say "aha! I can mix this and this and SEE! They're the same!" Your examples may be meaningful, but the way you've strung them together like that kind of destroys credibility. Any single combinatin there can be knocked over easily.

Look closely at all of Judao-Christian culture and liturgy, and you will find an Egyptian antecedent.

Either that's horribly bad grammar or you're terribly confused. If you look at Judaeo-Christian culture and liturgy, you don't find that the Egyptians are copying it after the fact (antecedent.)

And by the way, you're ignoring the royal lineages:
www.touregypt.net...

Moses most certainly didn't marry his daughter, sire granddaughters, and leave behind a son who becomes Pharoah. Nor did Ahkenaten spend any of his life being a shepherd after fleeing an accusation of murder.

You're also ignoring letters and other documents that exist about this family:
www.angelfire.com...

And the wine labels of the region, which record his rule for 17 years ("this wine was produced in year 17 of the reign of Amhotep" labels):
www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk...

(and here's some of the tomb finds from his tomb):
www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk...

Material on the whole Egyptian lineage, including statues and letters which clearly prove no Hyksos connection:
www.akhet.co.uk...

There are, of course, the Amarna letters (380 of them) -- documents that span the reign from Amhotep to Tutankhamen, but they're no help to your cause. They're written in Akkadian and a variety of other Sumerian dialects:
www.internationalegyptology.com...

They mention events that would have been worthy of being in the Bible, IF the Pharoah was Hebrew:
nefertiti.iwebland.com...

Resourcesfor the Amarna letters:
www.robotwisdom.com...

And a rather telling quote, there. Ahkenaten writes: "Come yourself, or send your son, and you will see the king at whose sight all lands live." Moses never referred to himself as a king "at whose sight all lands live." Nor did anyone else call him that, either.

More from the letters, showing a mismatch in Egyptian theology and Biblical theology:
metamedia.stanford.edu...


And for those of you, who like me are just too geeky to be allowed out in public, here's the actual set of 380 letters with references jammed onto one of the WORST looking websites I've ever had to pick through:
www.specialtyinterests.net...



[edit on 10-9-2005 by Byrd]

DeMille Conspiracy Rocks Hollywood
Controversy Surrounds Cecil B. DeMille Secret Memoirs

LOS ANGELES - Investigators have apparently uncovered a connection between the 2007 Christmas Eve arson blaze of The Little Country Church of Hollywood, the mysterious death of Hollywood Heritage Foundation director Robert Nudelman in 2008, and the “for sale” sign on the $18.9 million dollar estate located at 2010 DeMille Drive in Laughlin Park. These three events are part of the so-called, “DeMille Conspiracy” and are sending shockwaves of speculation throughout Hollywood.

Scholars are scouring the DeMille Archives at Brigham Young University searching for “secret memoirs” of legendary filmmaker Cecil B. DeMille. Researchers claim the memoirs may reveal details of DeMille’s affairs with longtime mistresses, including silent film actress Julia Faye and screenwriter Jeanie MacPherson, hinting of a possible missing heir to the DeMille fortune. A spokesperson representing the DeMille estate vehemently denied speculation that Cecil B. DeMille fathered any children other than his daughter Cecilia and adopted children Katherine, Richard, and John.

“Whether the DeMille Conspiracy is fact or fiction is yet to be established, says author and researcher Robert Hammond. “Even though I have my doubts, the implications are so profound and so far-reaching, they are almost impossible to imagine. This is the kind of stuff Hollywood dreams are made of.” Hammond is a leading expert on Cecil B. DeMille and involved with the production of “C.B. DeMille: The Greatest Showman on Earth”, an epic biopic on the life and work of the legendary director.

The Hollywood Heritage Foundation is located in the DeMille-Lasky Barn, where Cecil B. DeMille made his first movie, “The Squaw Man” and which later became known as Paramount Studios. DeMille is arguably the greatest director in history, with seventy films to his credit, including “The Ten Commandments” and “King of Kings.”

At the Golden Globe Awards, Steven Spielberg credited DeMille as inspiring him to make movies, citing the first film he ever saw as “The Greatest Show on Earth.”

Spielberg declined comments as to whether he believed the rumors related to the “DeMille Conspiracy.” Paramount Pictures chief David Gray was unavailable for comments.

reply to post by ralphellis2


I know one thing for certain that the God of Israelites had built the Great Pyramids of Egypt. You can read it from the Bible.

Unfortunately, there's also no evidence that Ancient Egyptians had anything to do with the pyramids (no Egyptian hieroglyphs for example). I don't think this is relevant to the OP, I just had to say it, sorry!