UK Firearms Policy

We have a fair bit of drunken crime in this country, the soultion isnt to shoot drunk people.

We dont need guns. Especailly when combined with a national drinking problem. In the house im currently living in we have two rather nifty swords, there perfect for my frends martial arts practise and scaring Jehovas Witnesses, guns arnt needed.

devilwasp - you asked a strange question before and I meant to ask if you are ex-military?

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
devilwasp - you asked a strange question before and I meant to ask if you are ex-military?

I ask questions that are normal??? lol what one..
No I aint mate , I'm a cadet and now "going" into the merchant navy.

Winchester Ranger T

You talk as if incidents of extreme violence happen only in countries without guns.

Name me a country where the type of violence you mention doesn't happen.

Chances are, if the cretins in the crimes you mention had a gun, their victims would most likely be dead.

Also no offence, but comparing rural Arizona to inner city England is the same as comparing incedents of violence in the highlands of Scotland to those of central London or the crime rate of Iowa to LA.

they wish that THEY had a gun of their own to protect themselves from the vile filth that owns Britain's streets at night.

You make a good point here.

Self preservation is at the core of weapon ownership; The thought that as long as I have a bigger gun than them I have the advantage.

As you intimate, Your English friends wouldn't want the "vile filth" on the street to have the same firepower as they do. That's our advantage, we know what everyone has got. You don't know whether your 'vile filth' has a bigger gun than you, and the chances are they do.

You talk as if the criminal element in Britain doesn't have guns. By current estimates there a one million illegal firearms on British streets right now. Giving the populace the chance to own one of their own would only even the playing field.

I have actually had one of my relatives ask how easy it would be to smuggle a gun back to the UK for them to have for home protection. Whilst this is relatively easy to do, I believe the penalty is now 5 years in jail, so I advised them to just take their chances and forget about guns. Even Pepper Spray would get you into a LOT of trouble.

As for comparing inner city England to rural America, I actually lived in rural England and now live in a city (Phoenix), and this city is much safer than rural England, at least in terms of violent street attacks. England is now a VERY violent place.

devilwasp - careful, you know what they say about sailors

You talk as if the criminal element in Britain doesn't have guns. By current estimates there a one million illegal firearms on British streets right now. Giving the populace the chance to own one of their own would only even the playing field.

There are guns in Britain, of course there are. I'd contest the numbers you cite but thats not the point. The logic that a hardcore criminal element in the UK own guns so therefore everyone should own them to defend themselves makes sense only in equally hardcore gun-nuts mind.

I have actually had one of my relatives ask how easy it would be to smuggle a gun back to the UK for them to have for home protection. Whilst this is relatively easy to do, I believe the penalty is now 5 years in jail, so I advised them to just take their chances and forget about guns. Even Pepper Spray would get you into a LOT of trouble.

As for comparing inner city England to rural America, I actually lived in rural England and now live in a city (Phoenix), and this city is much safer than rural England, at least in terms of violent street attacks. England is now a VERY violent place.

I gathered that you lived here at one point from your previous posts.

Once I cut down the generalising, exaggerating, patriotically enhanced opinion of your posts on the subject I'm not left with much. It's clear you don't know much of rural crime rates in the UK. Gun crime in the UK is very concentrated to certain areas; mainly cities like Birmingham and London. Rurally in general it's non existent. If you have friends asking to bring guns into the UK, then they're idiots. Sorry, but there's no other way to put it.

I'll say again this seemingly hard to understand concept: If your friends that want to protect themselves were allowed guns to do it, then the people they want to protect themselves against would also have the same freedom to arm themselves. Your friends would be armed, but so would their enemies, legally, and in vastly greater numbers than ever before.

No one can seriously tell me that that would be an improvement.

Well offensive remarks aside, perhaps you can tell the difference between patriotism and statistics.

www.prisonplanet.com...

307 firearms related offences in London alone in one month and that from 2002, I hear that things have grown much worse since then. It seems that the UK's glorious gun ban isn't being respected by criminals, strange only to a hoplophobe.

Originally posted by kegsI'll say again this seemingly hard to understand concept: If your friends that want to protect themselves were allowed guns to do it, then the people they want to protect themselves against would also have the same freedom to arm themselves. Your friends would be armed, but so would their enemies, legally, and in vastly greater numbers than ever before.

No one can seriously tell me that that would be an improvement.

The irony here is that this is exactly the point that you are missing. I'm guessing that you've never lived outside of the UK, certainly not in a country that trusts its citizens enough to have widespread and easy access to firearms. So your thinking is based solely on your knowledge of a socialist system and the associated propaganda of a media system with a socialist agenda, i.e. you could never have a rational discussion on the subject in the UK.

What about Switzerland, where every home has a gun, often an assault rifle, and yet gun crime is practically unheard of.

I guarantee you that every home in my neighborhood here has guns, my neighbours on both sides certainly do, and all the guys I work with do too. Number of shootings in my neighborhood in 4 years - zero, number of burglaries - zero, number of street assaults - zero, number of rapes - zero. My wife jogs the south mountain trail every morning with a S&W Model 642 in a waist bag, it's actually siting by me on the study desk as I type, the girl she jogs with carries a SiG P239 in 9mm, 4 years of jogging with no problems. In Northwich, UK I was scared to let her out alone after a woman was murdered while walking her dog in the neighboring town of Sandiway. The girls here don't even think about it, the guns are just there if needed, but BECAUSE they are there they are never needed.

archive.thisischeshire.co.uk...

Another murder from my former, and small, hometown, with proof of how useful the police are in coming to collect your murdered body after dialling 999:

iccheshireonline.icnetwork.co.uk...=13733332_method=full_siteid=50020_headline=-Reward-offers-no-l eads-to-murder-name_page.html

There seems to be this perception that once you unleash guns on a society, everyone runs around killing each other. That perception is also rife in parts of America, the socialist parts which always have the worst crime. Worst crime spots in America - New York, Los Angeles, Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC - which cities have the toughest gun laws - New York, Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC. Starting to get it, no, probably not.

I'm actually happy that the UK has such tough gun laws and increasing crime levels, it's used in the US as an example of what happens when you go down that road.

Personally, I'm just happy to be away from the violent yob culture and the routine attacks on a Saturday night in every town centre. You guys stick with your moral high ground and your anti-gun culture, you've created the society you deserve.

Edit - Do me one favour if you can, stop the scum in the England T-shirts coming over to Vegas and Florida for holidays, it's embarassing to be associated with those animals, some of us have to live here.



[edit on 18-9-2005 by Winchester Ranger T]

Well offensive remarks aside, perhaps you can tell the difference between patriotism and statistics.

I can. Prison planet isn't it.

The irony here is that this is exactly the point that you are missing. I'm guessing that you've never lived outside of the UK, certainly not in a country that trusts its citizens enough to have widespread and easy access to firearms. So your thinking is based solely on your knowledge of a socialist system and the associated propaganda of a media system with a socialist agenda, i.e. you could never have a rational discussion on the subject in the UK.

I couldn't help laughing when I read this. It's been the same since I ever talked to anyone that loves stroking their gun.

It's true, I don't get the abnormal psychological associations to that piece of metal that emotionally disenfranchised men in societies with an entrenched gun culture get. I confess; Woman in bikinis holding a mini gun don't give me a hard on.

What about Switzerland, where every home has a gun, often an assault rifle, and yet gun crime is practically unheard of.

Ahh.. Switzerland. They have guns? That's Switzerland.

You mentioned socialism? What about Norway and Sweden those two nasty socialist democratic countries that constantly top the tables for the best quality of life on the planet! those damn hippies!

Meaningless to the conversation?

Yip. So's Switzerland.

I guarantee you that every home in my neighbourhood here has guns, my neighbours on both sides certainly do, and all the guys I work with do too. Number of shootings in my neighbourhood in 4 years - zero, number of burglaries - zero, number of street assaults - zero, number of rapes - zero. My wife jogs the south mountain trail every morning with a S&W Model 642 in a waist bag, it's actually siting by me on the study desk as I type, the girl she jogs with carries a SiG P239 in 9mm, 4 years of jogging with no problems. In Northwich, UK I was scared to let her out alone after a woman was murdered while walking her dog in the neighboring town of Sandiway. The girls here don't even think about it, the guns are just there if needed, but BECAUSE they are there they are never needed.

Oh give yourself a break. You lived somewhere a murder happened. hold on till I grab my handbag.

The way you mixed talk of girls and guns there was interesting. Sometimes it really seems that the discription of a gun gets american gun lovers as exited as a discription of a beautiful woman.

There seems to be this perception that once you unleash guns on a society, everyone runs around killing each other. That perception is also rife in parts of America, the socialist parts which always have the worst crime. Worst crime spots in America - New York, Los Angeles, Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC - which cities have the toughest gun laws - New York, Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC. Starting to get it, no, probably not.

I'm actually happy that the UK has such tough gun laws and increasing crime levels, it's used in the US as an example of what happens when you go down that road.

Again I'll reiterate: I couldn't care less what Americans could own. Buy Grenade launchers or whatever. Why should I care? Once you allow a gun culture, that's it, there's no going back even if you wanted to.

Your politicians amuse themselves with this argument every so often but even they know it would be impossible to rid the US of guns. None of them want to, and there is no point. I actually agree with the US pro gun rhetoric that if the normal citizens were denied their guns only the the criminals would have them. For the US, that's true.

Oh, wait hang on you gave the cliché of Socialism! Socialism! for a opinion you disagreed with that came from a European country, wait, wait, I'll need to think of something as equally blasé..



Ah.. forget it...


[edit on 18-9-2005 by kegs]

Its a funny topic, v.emotive. It is as if we have one side arguing it's the problem and another arguing it is the solution

Whereas, I suspect it is not relative, to murders and crime.

Switzerland is mentioned a lot by pro-gun people, because of its super-low gun crime, and crime in general. However the reason for low crime is more to do with its small size, wealth, and a more moderate usage of guns in society. They dont grow up with the glamour side of guns, that other western countries have.

So I understand both sides, they are both correct in a way, completely different wavelengths though and they will never agree.

I would not say that owning a gun stops crime though, it does not cause crime but it will not stop it either.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
307 firearms related offences in London alone in one month and that from 2002, I hear that things have grown much worse since then. It seems that the UK's glorious gun ban isn't being respected by criminals, strange only to a hoplophobe.

this from an american? have you had a look at your own murder rates?

now lets try and look at some real statistics! Gun crime in the UK is confined to mainly inner city areas. I guess you are an american so I suppose I have to say this very clearly for you..LONDON IS NOT THE UNITED KINGDOM ok got that? there are hundred of towns and cities in the UK london is our capital city and as such has it's fair share of gun violence. Yes there are areas of our inner cities where it is not advisable to walk alone at night but it's exactly the same in the US, in fact much worse. The vast vast majority of the UK is completely safe to walk around in day or night. Particularly so as you know that the peroson you are passing in the street won't have a gun,

right first off lets compare crime in my capital city
LONDON
www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

Percentage change in recorded crime rates by region, 2003/04 to 2004/05
% change in rates per 1,000 population

London Region
all recorded crime (no) -4
all recorded crime (rates) -5
Violence against the person +8

as you can see in the london region which you seem to think it the entire UK with the exception of violent crime all recorded crime is down down 5% overall! There are many reasons for the increase of violent crime, alcohol being the number 1 reason by a long way and it has very little to do with gun violence.

Well...London is roughly 1/6th of the U.K.

And alcohol related crime has been going down in fact. :|

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
You talk as if the criminal element in Britain doesn't have guns. By current estimates there a one million illegal firearms on British streets right now. Giving the populace the chance to own one of their own would only even the playing field.

No it would INCREASE the number of guns on the street and frankly add more petrol to the fire.

I have actually had one of my relatives ask how easy it would be to smuggle a gun back to the UK for them to have for home protection. Whilst this is relatively easy to do, I believe the penalty is now 5 years in jail, so I advised them to just take their chances and forget about guns. Even Pepper Spray would get you into a LOT of trouble.

Thats one area, just because one area is dangerous the rest should be armed with Ak's?

devilwasp - careful, you know what they say about sailors

You know what they say about custom officers and checking every conceivable smuggling orafice...

Devilwasp - you have a serious case of "Last Word Syndrome" but I'll play along.

The point of there being so many illegal guns in the UK is just that, criminals have easy access to weapons, as that Harvey Nicholls shop assistant recently discovered to her detriment. All the government managed to do was remove from circulation thousands of legally owned weapons that were never involved in criminal acts, or acts of self defence for that matter, all because of the actions of a couple of nut jobs (Michael Ryan and Thomas Hamilton). Thereby solving nothing, costing the country millions of pounds in restoration fees, destroying large numbers of high quality firearms that could have been re-sold overseas, and killing sport and competition pistol shooting overnight in Britain.

Britain today is a nasty, violent place, even in rural areas where I hail from. People are scared to walk the streets at night, and homeowners in some areas are terrorized and defenceless. Compare that for a second to gun-crazed America, I have lived in gun hating states here (Maryland), gun tolerant states (Virginia) and gun loving states (Arizona), and the high gun ownership states have the lowest crime levels and the best behaved population.

They have a saying here, "an armed society is a polite society", and that's true, standards of American behaviour are much higher than UK standards, where every other word appears to be F*** Off. Now I'm not suggesting that this is all due to guns. But criminals here have had to change their ways because of armed citizens. When concealed carry was first introduced in Georgia, carjacking became unheard of almost overnight in Atlanta, when it was introduced for women only in Miami in the 1980s because of a sharp rise in the number of rapes, the incidence of rape declined 60% in one month.

As I said before, Britain is now such a socialist rats nest what with the antics of the government, the BBC, and the chattering classes in general, that you should be thankful to still have pointy knives. But as alien as it may seem, you should consider that many parts of the USA have demonstrably benefitted from high levels of personal firearm ownership, and that crime has acutally decreased as a result.

I would hope however that we could at least agree on one thing, namely that there is no justification in preventing people who have had background screening checks and been licensed by the police, from owning handguns for the purpose of competition shooting. Because if your thinking can't even allow that notion as being "safe for the children" then discussing the issue of widespread ownership is pointless.

One last interesting anecdote, I am a member of a British society here in Phoenix where ex-pats get together for a drink, and I would say that 80% own guns and shoot regularly for recreation and some competition shooting, funny that.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
Devilwasp - you have a serious case of "Last Word Syndrome" but I'll play along.

The point of there being so many illegal guns in the UK is just that, criminals have easy access to weapons, as that Harvey Nicholls shop assistant recently discovered to her detriment. All the government managed to do was remove from circulation thousands of legally owned weapons that were never involved in criminal acts, or acts of self defence for that matter, all because of the actions of a couple of nut jobs (Michael Ryan and Thomas Hamilton). Thereby solving nothing, costing the country millions of pounds in restoration fees, destroying large numbers of high quality firearms that could have been re-sold overseas, and killing sport and competition pistol shooting overnight in Britain.

Yeah I do , cant help it.
It did MORE than that and you know it, thats just your opinion not a solid fact.
Removing firearms stopped legally owened weapons and illegal weapons, you should know that as an ex customs officer. Should you not?

Britain today is a nasty, violent place, even in rural areas where I hail from. People are scared to walk the streets at night, and homeowners in some areas are terrorized and defenceless. Compare that for a second to gun-crazed America, I have lived in gun hating states here (Maryland), gun tolerant states (Virginia) and gun loving states (Arizona), and the high gun ownership states have the lowest crime levels and the best behaved population.

Compared to who though?
The UN did a survey and named scotland the most dangerous place in the world.
Never mind the survery was bogus and only compard us to 21 countries but thats another matter.
The fact is, the US is a diffrent culture, you cant compare the two.

They have a saying here, "an armed society is a polite society", and that's true, standards of American behaviour are much higher than UK standards, where every other word appears to be F*** Off. Now I'm not suggesting that this is all due to guns. But criminals here have had to change their ways because of armed citizens. When concealed carry was first introduced in Georgia, carjacking became unheard of almost overnight in Atlanta, when it was introduced for women only in Miami in the 1980s because of a sharp rise in the number of rapes, the incidence of rape declined 60% in one month.

Percentages and opinions are all fair game in the political world but not here mate.
You relise as we up the armerments of the civilian population we must also up the armerments of the police and we also up the level of gun crime right?
I mean would you want those guys going F off allowed to carry a 9mm semi automatic that can kill cops with body armour going up to you?
I mean I would like to see fire arms increased and MABYE for personel protection but frankly until we sort out the drunkeness and drugs problems here, no chance in hell.

As I said before, Britain is now such a socialist rats nest what with the antics of the government, the BBC, and the chattering classes in general, that you should be thankful to still have pointy knives. But as alien as it may seem, you should consider that many parts of the USA have demonstrably benefitted from high levels of personal firearm ownership, and that crime has acutally decreased as a result.

Socialist rat nest? You trying to bait that socialists or even the left is bad?
What do you suggest then mr ex customs officer?
seriosly what would you suggest as "acceptable" gun laws?

I would hope however that we could at least agree on one thing, namely that there is no justification in preventing people who have had background screening checks and been licensed by the police, from owning handguns for the purpose of competition shooting. Because if your thinking can't even allow that notion as being "safe for the children" then discussing the issue of widespread ownership is pointless.

That depends on the compitition though, now doesnt it?

One last interesting anecdote, I am a member of a British society here in Phoenix where ex-pats get together for a drink, and I would say that 80% own guns and shoot regularly for recreation and some competition shooting, funny that.

So?

Whoa, serious anger management issues going on here.

Hey I agree, if they're all as excitable as you maybe you should just stick to Super Soakers

Enjoy your disarmed state, you deserve it.

Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
Whoa, serious anger management issues going on here.

Hey I agree, if they're all as excitable as you maybe you should just stick to Super Soakers

Enjoy your disarmed state, you deserve it.

Anger management issues?
You havent seen me angry yet...

Disarmed state?
Yeah isnt ignorance fun?