Bastards.....

I think there are still WMD's there. I just don't think that they were ready to be used,as we were told.
I also think that in the long run Iraq will be just fine. Its just going to take a lot of hard work,pain and blood shed. I think the UN will be wishing they had helped from the begining,when this is all over.

No the UN should take over completely.Yet British and US troops should be the main part of the military force.Command of the forces could still be under US control but the administration should be under UN control.No more easy contracts for the Haliburton boys.
The best deal for the Iraqi people.

Won't happen. The UN had the chance to get involved in this. They declined. Now it's down to the cold hard truth:
The spoil$ of war...

To the topic:

No WMD:s around.
No UN presence needed.. "Coalitions" problem.. not the rest of the worlds, as "the rest" opposed the whole invasion.. Why should others pay for something they said shouldnt even be done?

Down with the U.N. It's just the one world government in its infancy.

You keep your eye on those $poils Fry.But turn a blind eye to the rising death toll.

The US needs the money more than most.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
US on Eastern front?

No dude.. only Russians.. Russians who won the war.. with out them the "allies" would have lost.

Shining Wizard to you also.. big can of STFU!

I aint Russian.. ignorant mofo..

I suppose Russia did not use any United States ships, planes, and tanks from the lend/lease program. Sure Russian soldiers fought valiantly with their backs to the wall, but I think they did have a little help. Yes, I know we did not come into the war until Japan kicked our ass at Pearl Harbor, but when we did come into it, the tide started to turn. Does the Normandy invasion ring a bell? What about the liberation of Paris? Yes, I know you are not Russian, but you are not much of a student of history either.

Yes, I know you are not Russian, but you are not much of a student of history either.

zzzzzZZZZZING! Groingrinder and myself are starting to agree more and more. Isn't there a prophecy about this in a biblical text somewhere?

groingrinder..

This does not belong to this topic.. and i am quite tired trying to prove the facts for you.. as nothing that i say never gets to your thick skull..

This is all pretty damn stupid.

I am insulted, that Bush, after basicallyu blowing off the Un and acting like he was king # of the world, now asks thier help? This is humiliating. We shouldnt have even gone into Iraq in the first place. Stoooopid.

Now that we are there, we do not need more aid, we simply need to have competant leaders who have brains in thier heads to resort the mess and fix it, We have the capability, what we need is leaders who arent money grubbing retards or boot lickers. The Us army could very well rebuild Iraq on its own. We have the tech, the know how, but the army isnt being used, they are contracting shady civilian companies, the army is being mis alocated, and troops being piled up in places they dont need to be. Severe mismanagement and leadership incompetance. If we had someone with a brain in charge, and who had smart people running the show over there, wed be on our way out, and this mess would soon be forgotten. But isntead, we have Bush and his hommies.

And now hes making the US look more stupid and incapable and demonizing us even mroe with his pathetic bids to the UN. I am glad France refuses. Good for them. I hate them too, but at least they serve a real purpose now: making bush eat his own crap. he made this mess, he had best clean it up. Perhaps a miracle will happen, the truth will get out, and Bush can be tried for grand treason.

And by the way, everyone needs another friggin history lesson here. Had german had only Russia to contend with, the Germans would have had Russians licking thier boots by now. the Germans would have easily smoked and wasted the Russians. But then, they had to deal with Britain. Two fronts, resources allocated. Then the real strain came, people seem to forget the idiot ally Hitler had in Mussolini. Hitler had to then siphon off troops to North Africa because Mussolini couldnt handle the mess and the Italians were getting thier asses kicked. Hitler had to send quite a force to North Africa, to the Balkans and greece, to bail Mussolini out. people forget about the Germans in North Africa, and the medditerranian, and the huge strain this created on his army. Had Hitler not had to deal with his buddys problems too, he could have very well recovered from Barbarossa and got his second wond to come back and kick the Russians asses again. But he was being wore down on three fronts now, not just two. Ever read the story of Erwin Rommel? read more on the desert fox, then you might understand better.

The US sped Hitlers demise, but if you must know who really defeated Hitler, it was Hitler himself. His own arrogance, greed, stupidity, and short sightedness caused his countrys demise, the allies simply helped. He must thank Hitler for winning world war 2, because had he been smart and allowed his generals to do the work and didnt try playing little ceasar, he could have very well won the war in Europe, and history would be quite different now. Thankfully, hitler was mad and a complete idiot in tactical affairs, and thus, he hung himself with his own rope. A fitting fall for a man who led a nation into near oblivion, and created a conflict that killed over 60 million EWuropeans alone, not counting the 6 million victims of his "final solution".

The US had no stake in the war in Europe, we shouldnt have even bothered really, we simply tipped the scales and added more momentum to the stone that was already rolling downhill to smash the nazis. Our biggest accomplishment was the Pacific and against the japanese, thats where we really made the difference.

Originally posted by FULCRUM
I dont understand who are you calling as "Bastards"? Surely not the French, Russians or Germans?

Look it is US lies and mess, you clean it.

No, the Axis of Weasels, two who have received countless amounts of money from us and the other, who hid behind our might for decades while saving money and stabbing us at every turn, these three who had under-the-table deals with Hussein, have done nothing wrong. Yeah.

It's embaressing to be European sometimes. Some of the countries over here have (imho) no backbone at all.

It seems to me that the french have got thier own agenda or they are just being this way because they are naturally stubborn and irritating people?

I'm proud that our boys were over there, shoulder to shoulder, kicking terrorist ass. Somebody had to do it.

Sorry, I drifted into personal opinion there for a moment, no offense intended, I rant too much.

*bites tongue*

Like said: You made mess, now clean it. Or is this mission beyond the scope of mighty US?

It seems everyone has forgotten who the real bastards are.
It seems all this "patriotism",has distracted everyone from the true happenings occurring here,and all over the world for that matter.

Them/Us,France,Germany,Russia,US.........(governments),they go and get into a tiff with each other,the commoner pays the cost,while the big-wigs in government sit on a bottomles bank account,I think that if they want to fight with one another,they should at least do it themselves,or at least foot "part" of the bill,then it probably would not happen at all.

The troops involved have my complete support,to hell with the governments,to hell with wasting more troops on a lost cause,to hell with worrying about those who have already been killed,we all have a life to live.

Just think if the US would have actually learned from 9/11,and actually went back to the way it was when it worked,can you say "separatist"?,yes,it actually worked once.
I can understand the US being yanked into WW2,to a point.

But 9/11 was different,time and money would have been better used tightening up security here,while being careful not to trod upon the rights of US citizens.

There was a time when things would have worked,but instead some dummy had to go to war against"terror",now we are in IraqNam.

Same old,same old,...bullschmidt.

Those in power rely on everything not working right.

ShiningWizard: Actually, the US became a superpower after WW2 because they were the only major country not to have had any of the nastiness happen on it's own land. No massive bombing campaigns to clean up at home, no infrastructure to fix.

If you get your history from the woeful US education system or from (haha) TV, be prepared to be wrong 80% of the time.

And yes, the Soviets did far more to win WW2 than the US did. Had Hitler been able to secure the Eastern Front, he would have won the war. But he couldn't thanks to Russian fighters and Russian weather and Germany underestimating them.

As to the topic of this thread:

The US basically unilaterally snubbed the UN (with it's lapdog Tony Blair and bribing other countries to join (like Poland)) and illegally invaded Iraq.

If there's trouble now and they need help, I say YOU MADE YOUR BED NOW LIE IN IT. Yep, no sympathy here at all. If the US can't handle it alone then they should admit "Sorry, we were being jerks and now we realize that we're really good at killing people in war but we're really bad at protecting people once the major fight stops". It's that simple.

Or they just continue getting US soldiers killed because of their error in judgement. This war was a sham perpetrated on the world, and the soldiers pay the ultimate price for that hubris.

But, to be honest, if you gave me a choice as to which country's troops should be paying the price, it's the Coalition. Sure as hell nobody else. While it's a tragedy that they are dying, it's a tragedy signed and stamped by the President of the United States.


Jakomo

There are thousands of college students that are here in the U.S. from the old Russia and other Eastern block countries. They have been working here for the summer and banking the American dollars. I work with 2 of them on a daily basis.

They are good workers, I have no problem with them.
These kids are highly intelligent. I was surprized, I found their IQ to be higher then ours. And I am speakng about all of the ones I met not just these 2. Go figure...

GOOD LORD
You guys need to put some thought into your post really people!
First I will address the TOPIC then I will post again to address the 5th grade history level of this board!

First we are not asking for HELP we are offering participation which is what the security council was asking for a month ago!
In my opinion the UN has no place in Iraq but thats me someone else pointed out and I think correctly this is more an attempt to get the French and Germans on board to smooth their feathers. We are not asking for a lifeperserver!
Second dispite what our leftwing media would have the world believe the US is quite capable of accepting casualties (fact is we inflicted more casualties on ourselves than any of the rest of you combined) The rediculas idea that this is a "quagmire" or "Vietnam" is championed in leftist papers and TV and websites and parroted by leftist mirmadons who want to get an emotional response out of people and ignor the facts.
Third and this is key IF the UN does not want to get involved then they need to shut their holes and leave it to the US to complete the task. Our military and civil affairs people can get the job done a lot quicker if they have no outside distractions!
Fourth Its not a mess in Iraq you are hearing the negitive things and not the positive things the unspoken rule for reporters is "you dont report victories". You hear about all the people without power or running water but not about the people who have both and not the fact that most of them had neither under Saddam. You hear about the convoy that got ambushed but not about the 5 convoy's that made it through OK! You must not let your judgment be clouded by a dislike for the administration!
Fifth This is not an "illegal" war the US does not need the UN's approval to act in our best interest we are a soveriegn nation and my act independently.

Now to WW2
You guys are all off!
1 Russia didnt win the war! Major contributer but not the main contributer
2 More Russians died but that is not a valid measure because it was mainly due to flawed tactics.
3 Were it not for Hitler Army Group center would have encircled Moscow in August of '41.
4 Russia did fight along a larger front in the east and did record 2 piviotal victories at Stalingrad and Kursk but were it not for 3 this would not have happened
5 Stalin himself demanded the US and UK to open a second front (Yalta conferrence)
6 the Russians had no strategic bomber force during most of the war!
7 US/UK strategic bombers assaulted German war production (which never reached a wartime footing although that was Hitlers fault)
8 the daytime bombing by US 8th airforce and nightime bombing by UK bomber command absorbed countless material and manpower resources of the Luftwaffe
9 The US had to fight not only Germany but Japan as well the Soviet Union declared war on the Japaneese only in summer of '45 ( there was unofficial fighting on the Chinese border before '45 but not significant)
10 Japan had one of the worlds largest and best fleets in '41
11 as a result of 9 and 10 the US had to fight a 2 front war.
I could keep this up for a long time guys but its not necessary.
Fact is it was the combined INDUSTRIAL might of the US and the USSR that spelled doom for Germany were it not for 2 fronts in Europe the Germans would have enjoyed a significant logistical advantage which could have ment their superior technology could have defeated the US/UK or USSR alone!
6000 Tiger tanks against 40,000 Shermans or 40,000 T-34s is not all that bad but 6000 Tigers against 80,000 allied tanks is another story!

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by GRENADIER]

Back on topic....

While I am not one, I know some high quality people that were born out of wedlock.

It seems, in the end, that being 'illegitimate' at birth doesn't diminish one's potential contribution to the planet.

'There ain't half been some clever bastards'... Ian Dury & The Blockheads.

Grenadier: First we are not asking for HELP we are offering participation which is what the security council was asking for a month ago!

Haha. "Offering participation", that's rich. Excuse me, world, would you care to participate in Iraq with some troops and get their asses blown up? Are you sure?Aw, darn.

In my opinion the UN has no place in Iraq but thats me someone else pointed out and I think correctly this is more an attempt to get the French and Germans on board to smooth their feathers. We are not asking for a lifeperserver!
If you're asking for troops, you're asking for lifepreservers. Other troops to take the heat off the US ones (so some of them can GO HOME).

Second dispite what our leftwing media would have the world believe the US is quite capable of accepting casualties (fact is we inflicted more casualties on ourselves than any of the rest of you combined) The rediculas idea that this is a "quagmire" or "Vietnam" is championed in leftist papers and TV and websites and parroted by leftist mirmadons who want to get an emotional response out of people and ignor the facts.

Is the Associated Press "left wing"? Reuters? Are we talking Pravda? The Iraqis are fighting a guerrilla war against the US occupying force, exactly as happened in Vietnam, it's a natural parallel to make (and I've seen it on CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, BBC discussed as such).

"Third and this is key IF the UN does not want to get involved then they need to shut their holes and leave it to the US to complete the task. Our military and civil affairs people can get the job done a lot quicker if they have no outside distractions!

Hey, yeah, I mean look at the progress they've made since May 1st when the war was declared over. Oh wait. In 4 months, they've really made hardly any progress whatsoever.

www.philly.com...

"Food: The United Nations has rebuilt Iraq's prewar food ration system. It has brought in 1.6 million tons of food since April - two-thirds bought with Iraqi oil revenues, one-third from donations. Since June, almost all Iraqis have been receiving enough rations to live off. "There is plenty of food in the country," World Food Program spokeswoman Antonia Paradela said."

Notice those two words UNITED NATIONS.

"Water: Supply has reached prewar levels in some provinces but remains lower overall, partly for lack of electricity to power pumps. "There are still going to be problems for quite a few months," Bearpark said."

"Electricity: People across Iraq complain of being unable to run their businesses and cool their homes in searing temperatures. "

"Sewage: Looters stripped Baghdad's two treatment plants. For now, officials pump minimally treated sewage into the Tigris River, where it risks causing disease downstream. Bearpark said getting sewage plants working would take at least 12 months."

"Security: Street lawlessness has fallen steadily, but the pops of gunfire punctuate the night, and many Iraqis still feel unsafe....U.S. military police guard police stations in Baghdad, and soldiers patrol streets, sometimes alongside Iraqi police. U.S. troops face attacks that come, on average, every two hours."

Wow, where do I sign up?

"Fourth Its not a mess in Iraq you are hearing the negitive things and not the positive things the unspoken rule for reporters is "you dont report victories". You hear about all the people without power or running water but not about the people who have both and not the fact that most of them had neither under Saddam [this is a lie]. You hear about the convoy that got ambushed but not about the 5 convoy's that made it through OK! You must not let your judgment be clouded by a dislike for the administration!"

I hear both the negative and positive things, it just so happens that the negatives outweight the positives by more than 10 to 1.

"Fifth This is not an "illegal" war the US does not need the UN's approval to act in our best interest we are a soveriegn nation and my act independently.

So act independantly and clean up Iraq. First you snub the UN, question their "relevance", and then the Bushies whine and squeal that maybe they could use some HELP because they can't handle the mess they've gotten themselves into.

I'm sure thousands of foreign troops flood into Iraq every week to fight the US. It's only going to get worse, and who would blame us if the rest of the world said "It's your mess, you started it, you take care of it and leave us out of it. If you have too many casualties and it's costing WAY too much money, maybe you'll think about that next time you INVADE another country (illegal or not)."



jakomo
eeps, long one.

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Jakomo]

Originally posted by FULCRUM
To the topic:

No WMD:s around.
No UN presence needed.. "Coalitions" problem.. not the rest of the worlds, as "the rest" opposed the whole invasion.. Why should others pay for something they said shouldnt even be done?

Why should those same people be involved in rebuilding the place they said should never have been invaded???

The UN had said do not invade, no war, but the US and UK did it anyways. The US and UK have asked for more help and the UN said no. But the UN wants a BIG part in the rebuilding process. Why should they be allowed to gain the "spoils of war" (since we all know it's a war to get oil etc) when they don't fight in the war???? That's like a salesman saying "well, I know you did all the work, but I want 5% of your commission".

The UN has never once lived up to what is was created for, and I think it's high time to forget the UN as a whole. It has only proven to be useless and a waste of tax payer money for every tax paying citizen of every country involved in the organization.

Article 1
The Purposes of the United Nations are:

To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

The rest here : UN Charter

How much of this charter has actually been "fulfilled"????????