Israel fights back

"As the world turns" between Israel and Palestine....
If "Death" was a real entity, I'm sure he/she is having a field day in the Middle East....
Whose at fault? Its been going back and forth for how LONG?
Well....things are going to ratchet up methinks....
Terrorism will now be given "in measure" back every single time it is used.
You want to make a point...grow balls and attack or 'terrorize' military targets, etc.
But be warned, things will continue to cycle slowly out of control. Israel is making it clear that terrorism will be met with its own form of 'terrorism'....

"Memo from Israel To Palestine"
americandigest.org...


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 26-8-2003 by Seekerof]

If i aint totally wrong, 58 years of war in "holy land"..
Starting from 1945 as Jews left the Europe to Israel..

Btw there was no war there until they arrived..

This bs gotta end.

Djarums: "I can see trying to get facts is going to be impossible when clearly you seem to think that the terrorists held by israel in prison are guilty of what... speeding tickets? Give me a break. I'm done wasting my time on this thread, there's more useful stuff than this crap to read on this site."

Hey, I backed up all my allegations with FACTS. But that's okay, some people have real difficulty admitting they're wrong. I can see you're one of these people.

When the Israeli governement itself says that none of these prisoners were involved in attacks on Israelis, you refuse to believe that that means they are not terrorists.

How many of these Palestinian "terrorists" languishing in Israeli jails have even been CHARGED with anything? Care to field that one, or are you going to dismiss it because you might learn things you don't want to know?


jakomo

I've been watching these two sides blow each other to bits all my life. I've almost stopped caring and definitely don't choose to say either side is wrong, as I have no understanding of the history.

Why don't the UN just build a fence between the two, they obviously aren''t going to get on in any way. Hasn't this gone on long enough?

Originally posted by Djarums
That's statement you're rather unqualified to make, in my opinion. I'm sure the folks in Israel have better things to do then wage a war with people who have no problem blowing up little kids. Bear in mind (as you obviously don't understand) that this conflict is not popular with the people of Israel themselves. Also bear in mind that Israel is a democracy and can elect new Prime Ministers at any time (unlike the other governments in the middle east). We have seen in recent history the way that the Israeli people have not reelected prime ministers because of their inability to take strides toward peace. Those of you making odd comments like "sharon will be in power for a long time and wage war against the palestinians" simply know nothing about the form of government used in Israel. But that's ok, I don't expect you to, as you have never been there and only know what you hear.

I wonder what you suggest be done. An open question to all of you. You seem to feel that when a bus bombing of innocent kids occurs the Israelis should do nothing. Do you believe America should have done nothing when it's people were killed? Do you believe any country shouldn't have the right to take action to prevent such horrible things from occuring again?

You portray the terrorist who was killed Thursday as a regular person. That is ignorant on your part. The Israelis did not pick a random Palestinian to vent their aggression on. This was someone heavily involved in actions like the bus bombing. He is a combatant. Period.

i see Israel are not murdering scum either? forget that they target children that they shoot children through the heads like straight through the classroom window? the Israeli commander who was interviewed addmitted that his men are sometimes heavy handed and they do deliberatly KILL children from time to time? it amazes me how easy the Palestinions get all the bad rap but when Israel MURDER for the sake of MURDER all is fine why is this? forget the 1 ton bombs the drop on civilian targets to kill 1 man? they dropped one on a hotel early hours of ther morning killing many people many children all in there beds destroying the hotel with many homes also, the Israelis appololgised to the world by saying "we thought there was no one around only the man we after inb the hotel" yer right. why a 1 ton bomb then, they also said " we did not think people would be around the area at the time" no they were all killed in there beds remember.

Israel are as worse as ther Palestinions except they have America to thank for the protection they get for breaking resolutions. It is not ok for another country to break them America will either cause genocide by sanctions or war or both, and at the same time tell the U.N they are weak for not acting but as soon as the U.N votes to act against Israel for its crimes and blatant violation of U.N resolutions America Vetoes every siingle time. so many people see Israel as the good ones when the real truth is they are as bad as there enemy. they both commit crimes, like the 2 men wounded on the hospital steps and the Israelis held the doctors back at gunpoint til the 2 men died? or the pregnant women who are shot at check points or refused to to pass to give birth at hospitals, what about the Israeli soldiers who have refused to fight anymore because there commanders give orders for them to kill and terrorise the Palestinions, or were a palestinion town or city of 600,000 only get 10% of water they should have while an illegal settlement of 600 Jews gets the other 90%, and i could go on like murdering peace workers and journalists, whats the point most will never see israel as bad which is a shame, and as long as these terrible double standards America shows in the middle east how do we expect to move forward? and as for the peace inicitave that was a no starter from the beginning, as for the Palestinion prisoners released the other day that is just scoring brownie points because what people do not get told is these people were due for release anyway? SHLOMO BEN AMI ex foreign minister of Israel admitted that.

so the Jews have come from being persecuted and murdered in history to now becoming the murderes and persecutors?

and now we hear of plans of an oil pipe line all the way to Israel from Iraq by the Americans as a thank you gesture to Israel for all its help, amn don't me laugh haha. last time i looked the oil America are so happy to play with belonged to a soverign country that from being none terrorist to a vacume of terrosrists,murder,rape,looting and lack of water,food,electricityno jobs lack of medicines patients dying of lack of oxygen in the hospitals, and many many thousands of Iraqis being arrested and took away in Gestapo style house raids, oh now we have no WMD still except if they look in Israel which America will NOT ALLOW there wil be plenty of Chemical,Biological,Nuclear weapons there, but then what does that mateter right?

[Edited on 20-06-2003 by scouse]

P kid=future terrorist. Isreal Kid=future body count.

Palestininas are taught in school to hate jews. They are taught that dieing while killing a jew will make you holy. That if you kill a jew while blowing yourself up, the Palestinian government and other Middle East governments will give your family money.

Anyways, Palestinians kill kids, roadmap to peace still on. Isreal kills a terrorist leader, roadmap to peace ends. Hmmm, I wonder who's side we are on? Now, you mess with palestinians, the other Arabs get mad and stop selling us oil. You mess with Isreal the Arabs happy and give us a deal on oil.

And again, how come the Palestinians can kill kids and women and elderly and you don't hear about it. Yet Isreal injures a civillian while killing a terrorist leader, it on the news that they are Zionist evil dirty disgusting vile Jews that should be wiped off the map. Then we go to Afganistan and wipe out a few villages and we the good guys. BS!!!!!

P kid=future terrorist. Isreal Kid=future body count.

Thats a VERY silly statement. More Palestinians have died in this conflict than israelis. WAY many more. Palestinians havent even begun, nor can they, even attempt to even up the body count. For every one Israeli Palestinians killl, IDF goes and wastes a #load.

The Israelis dont go in and accidentally injure one citizen, they go smashing through villages and killing ALOT of civilians. The Israel approach to terror is like this:

If a terrorist is suspected on being hidden somewhere, they go in smashing through the whole village killing anyone in the way without thought nor remorse.

Its like this: here in the US, it would be like if lets say a robber or mruderer were running from the cops, and the cops saw him go into a neighborhood. So instead of blocking off the neighborhood to go and find the kilelr or criminal, they instead shoot rockets and blow up every friggin house in the neighborhood to ensure that the killer is dead. Civilians and innocents not herded up out of the line of fire.

Israelis have tanks, rockets, nukes, helicopters. What do the Palestinians have? Nothing. Rocvks, sticks, bombs when they can get them, small arms, ect.

The tactics used by the Israeli military in thier war on terro make waco look like a joke. I dread the day when our govornment starts adopting such tactics.

By the way, your statement about Palestinians being taught to hate Jews in school? They aint the only ones taught to hate...........

Originally posted by Jakomo
Mycroft: "If you would like to prove my claim false, I suggest you do the research."

Nah, that pretty much says to me that you actually CAN'T back up your claim, so why should I bother trying to disprove it when you won't bother proving something you said was fact.

I've got a life that includes a family, a career, an active religious life, involvement with the community and socialization with friends. Don't read anything into it, it's normal for me to blow off people like you that think I should spend my time doing their work for them.

Originally posted by Jakomo
But I did anyway: "According to Adalah, The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, the poverty rate for Arab citizens is 30 percent and is twice that of the Israeli population overall."

Show me I'm wrong.

I compare Arab citizens of Israel to Arab citizens of Arabic countries, and you compare Arab citizens of Israel to Jewish citizens of Israel. Can you see that these are two different things?

However, since you bring it up, I will point out that these statistics are comparable to the relationship of white and minority populations in the Unites States. If you need verification of this, the United States government makes census data available on-line.

Originally posted by JakomoAnd as for voting, yes, you're right, I was mistaken. Arabs and non-Jews who are citizens can vote. Problem is, Israeli citizenship laws are based on bloodlines rather than territoriality. So unless you have Jewish blood somewhere in ya, your chances of becoming a citizen are slim (you have to stay 5 years I think before you are elgible).

This makes their immigration laws comparable to other countries, except for the fast-track for Jews.

Given that the purpose of creating the state of Israel was to create a refuge for Jews around the world, what do you expect? Do you think they should [I]stop admitting Jews?

Originally posted by Jakomo
Mycroft:"Are there Jews that disagree with it?" (Zionism)

Wow, tons. Some are far more critical of it than I am, and they live with it every day.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

Jews against Zionism would be more aptly named �Jew against Zionism�. It�s just one guy. His name is Russell Waxman. The pictures are from a protest back in 1980. I don't remember the issue, but it wasn't against the existence of Israel.


[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Mycroft]

[Edited on 27-8-2003 by Mycroft]

forget that they target children that they shoot children through the heads like straight through the classroom window?

Israel MURDER for the sake of MURDER

now we hear of plans of an oil pipe line all the way to Israel from Iraq by the Americans as a thank you gesture to Israel for all its help

Thank you for what? Israel was not involved in Gulf War 2 so as not to offend the arab countries who would consider the conflict more tainted if a jew were involved. So exactly what is your little pipeline thanking them for?

I suggest you learn how to link to sources for your stupid allegations. And while you're at it try to use sites that people respect not homemade #stews like what CA posts.

I wasn't aware that this forum and the fictional writing forum had merged. Credibility of this thread = 0

Fulcrum/Uninen thank you for your comments about how the jews coming to israel is the direct reason for the fighting... nice to know that your nick change hasn't changed your lack of brains and ability to say the stupidest crap on the boards.

[Edited on 8-27-2003 by Djarums]

Originally posted by Djarums
I suggest you learn how to link to sources for your stupid allegations. And while you're at it try to use sites that people respect not homemade #stews like what CA posts.

You must have nightmares with me men, i mean u mention my name in all the israeli-threads, i guess is personal or something, anyway stop it, djarums, u are showing ignorance, complete ignorance about religious matters, racial matters, and respect.
U seem just to understand one side, while most people at least understands both positions, therefor u never understand after all these explanations, therefor u never reply with facts or sources of info (but u do criticize the rest), the only thing u keep doing is insulting, and calling us nazis, racists, jews haters and bla bla bla, instead of show your point, u are just blinded with your anger, you can�t control anymore logica, your words have no sense in the real word mr Djarums, u have denied FACTS, just to be right, and that�s a HUGE mistake.
Anyway is obvious, that for u all the palestinians, are fighting a war for a land that is not theirs, that they are all suicide bombers, that they even don�t deserve any pact or treaty, that is good to build a wall of 8m and 600km to separate the good israeli and kind people, from the evil palestinians suiciders that have nothing better to do that blow up themselves, why not exterminate them and let the israeli leave in peace says Djarums....
And yet you tell us about being anti-semite, when i already told u that i have semite blood, and not just that, but already told u, zionism, judaism, torah kabbala, is not the same thing, as the concept of israel came out just centenar ago thanks to a book written about the promissed land, before that, there was no idead of such a Land, as u defend that Palestine doesn�t exist, Israel is the same story, just because they claim the land due to religious facts, makes it better, because you would say "oh those extremists religious fanatics", that are killing people just because
of their faith in their religion.

I hope for your cynicism and hypocrisy that you are not a Christian otherwise i�ll go laugh on the ground just right now, because it will complete the story of Djarums the guy that criticises things that he afterwards agrees with but in other way.

Look moron, as u are repeting your self commenting CA�s bla bla bla, i am sick of your stupidity ignorance and arrogance about knowledge of the middle east, if u can�t stand this, don�t come to post your ignorant opinion, if u can�t hold a normal disscussion just showing your points and countering the points of the opponent, then go away men, i�ve never seen you once giving a normal response, or a convincing response, or even a response with respect, and i�ve got a feeling that is not going to change.
At least i told you already and you know it (even if u don�t care), but also from now on, we will see if u keep your attitude like "The guy that discredits without sources of info, and without disscussing the points".

Btw, u really like when Israel goes and kills those "mass murders" or "fanatics", well, here you go:
customwire.ap.org...
and guess what
Surprise, surprise, the HAMAS target escaped unharmed...

Are those also "innocent victims" as the ones of the suicide bombers?
For Djarums No.

Maybe the funnies thing, is that if u really don�t like the sites i post, is because they aren�t you dear CNN, FoX, or whatever Big Media Corp, and those are the most biased news, because they are the most accesible information for the people, and "they" make use of that very good. So next time you tell me about how to trust the source, i�ll tell you that it has more credibility than the manipulated Corporations from today. If u still not understanding that, men u�ve got a mental trouble.

And for Djarums, anyone that criticises Israel, or the goverment, or the zionisnt or whatever regarding them, is a dirty jew hater and a nazi, even if they were killing innocents, and commiting atrocities,
liying to the whole world, and so on,
you still have to respect them, but other country or other race does it, and let�s punish them.... Like america is doing...
So please men stop being THE HYPOCRITE

For your own sake act like an adult, disscuss like an adult and accept facts as an adult


[Edited on 27-8-2003 by CoLD aNGeR]

Mycroft: "I compare Arab citizens of Israel to Arab citizens of Arabic countries, and you compare Arab citizens of Israel to Jewish citizens of Israel. Can you see that these are two different things?"

Um, again, this is an unfounded allegation. Back up your claims or I will just dismiss them as Zionist claptrap. If in fact Arab citizens of Israel are better off than Arabs in other Middle Eastern countries, it shouldn't be too hard to find. But it's up to you to back it up, though I suspect once again you won't. Which makes me suspect it's untrue.

"Jews against Zionism would be more aptly named �Jew against Zionism�. It�s just one guy. His name is Russell Waxman. The pictures are from a protest back in 1980."

Really? Check out the audio link section for dozens of speeches presented by rabbis (different rabbis) at other times, protesting Zionism.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

And hey, here's something for you. Go to www.google.com and do a search (with quotes) "JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM". 1,950 results. It's not all one guy, either.

Jakomo

Originally posted by Jakomo
Mycroft: "I compare Arab citizens of Israel to Arab citizens of Arabic countries, and you compare Arab citizens of Israel to Jewish citizens of Israel. Can you see that these are two different things?"

Um, again, this is an unfounded allegation. Back up your claims or I will just dismiss them as Zionist claptrap. If in fact Arab citizens of Israel are better off than Arabs in other Middle Eastern countries, it shouldn't be too hard to find. But it's up to you to back it up, though I suspect once again you won't. Which makes me suspect it's untrue.

Suspect all you want. I'm still too buzy to do your work for you.

BTW, did you look up the comparative statistics on povertly levels of Arabs in Israels and minority populations in the Unites States? I at least pointed you in the right direction for that.

I'll also point out that these statistics are available because they come from free societies that believe in public disclosure. It's much harder to get census data from many Arabic nations.

Originally posted by Jakomo"Jews against Zionism would be more aptly named �Jew against Zionism�. It�s just one guy. His name is Russell Waxman. The pictures are from a protest back in 1980."

Really? Check out the audio link section for dozens of speeches presented by rabbis (different rabbis) at other times, protesting Zionism.

Yeah, the key phrase being "at other times." The creation of the state of Israel was controversal within the Jewish religious community back in the early 20th century. There is even a movie about it, I forget the title but I think it stared Rob Lowe.

But do you want this to be a religious discussion? If you do, I can start dredging up Islamic quotes that will make your hair stand up.

Originally posted by Jakomo
And hey, here's something for you. Go to www.google.com and do a search (with quotes) "JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM". 1,950 results. It's not all one guy, either.

Is that all? I got 44,400 results for "Flat Earth." Wow! There must be a powerful movement against Copernicus, Galileo, and space programs! I guess that means we need to stop funding NASA, trans-global shipping, and satalite communications!

Mycroft: So here's the situation:

You claim something as true.

I say, "I doubt that, why don't you back it up with facts."

You say, "I have no time to back it up with facts."

I'll even quote myself here. "Back up your claims or I will just dismiss them as Zionist claptrap."

Why do I need to disprove your claims when you don't even prove them in the first place, haha!

So thanks for playing, hopefully you'll do better on another thread!

Oh, and as for your question "BTW, did you look up the comparative statistics on povertly levels of Arabs in Israels and minority populations in the Unites States?"/

Some comparison to hold yourself up to. The U.S. has the worst poverty levels of all industrialized countries, and the WORST levels of poverty happen to occur in minorities (blacks, Hispanics, etc).

Why not compare it to Canada? Sweden? Australia? Britain? Why the U.S., where institutional racism is the order of the day?

Oh, now I remember. Zionist. Claptrap. It all makes sense now.

jakomo

CA, thank you for your note that anyone who disagrees with your idiotic biased view of world affairs is wrong. I will use it for future consideration before posting in the future and perhaps preface my posts with "So as not to offend the great humanitarian Cold Anger"

Telling me I deny facts is funny. Verifiable corroborated facts don't get denied. Stupid opinion papers written by questionable sources do get denied. Like shooting at children through windows. Or a repayment plan for Israel's "help" in Gulf War 2. Stupid things get shot down. If you can't handle it, don't post puff the magic dragon stories.

Originally posted by Jakomo
I'll even quote myself here. "Back up your claims or I will just dismiss them as Zionist claptrap."

That�s kind of an empty threat, don�t you think?

But if you want statistics, I�ll give you some.

Let�s look at some Arabic countries:

What the World Bank says about Syria:

Syria is a country of 16 million people with a per capita income of about US$1,000. It has a fast growing and very young population that is demanding jobs and pressuring economic and social infrastructures

lnweb18.worldbank.org...

Now compare it to what the government of Jordan says about Jordan:

Per capita income in Jordan stands at $1,600. Ammari explained though that for comparative purposes among countries, the purchasing power parity is used.

www.jordanembassyus.org...

Hmm, he said purchasing power parity is used. I guess that means that the actual measure in dollars is lower? Oh well.

Now let�s see what the government of Saudi Arabia says:

It showed the combined per capita income in the Arab countries improved slightly to around $2,465 in 2001 from $2,221 in 1995. But in some members, the income deteriorated because growth in their population was quicker than their economy.

www.sagia.gov.sa...

That was an average for all Arabic countries, but the same site provides information on just Saudi Arabia too:

- The average Saudi per capita income has grown six and a half-fold over this period from about Rls 3,750 to about Rls 24.150.
www.sagia.gov.sa...

The conversion rate to dollars is 3.745 to one, so that improved figure of Rls 24,150 would translate to $6,448.60 USD. Saudi Arabia is the richest of the Arabic nations with the highest per capita income.
So what�s the per capita income of Arab citizens of Israel?
Honestly, I couldn�t find it. I thought I had it on an Israeli census report, but I couldn�t find it again. It�s a large document, so maybe I just overlooked it.
I did find a few anti-Israel websites that claimed the figure was just over half of the average Israeli income. Oddly enough, they never quoted an exact figure or a source, they only said, �just over half.� One of these websites was the Washington Reports on Middle Eastern Affairs, and we know how they do their accounting. It�s not a good souce, but since I haven�t found a better one, I�ll go with it.
So�the per capita income for an Israeli is about $19,000 (United Nations, 2002 figures. Look it up yourself, or if you�re too lazy, feel free to substitute older figures. I think it was only $16,000 back in 2002) half of that is $8,500 which makes the Arabic citizen of Israel not only better paid than the average citizen of an Arabic nation, but better paid than the average citizen of the richest Arabic nation.
Oh, if you didn�t do the math, that�s about 3.5 times the income of the average citizen of and Arabic nation.

Originally posted by Jakomo
So thanks for playing, hopefully you'll do better on another thread!

Your generosity is amazing! Here you go, dropping almost every point you make, and you still wish that I do better yet! Truly, you are a gentleman!

Originally posted by Jakomo
Oh, and as for your question "BTW, did you look up the comparative statistics on povertly levels of Arabs in Israels and minority populations in the Unites States?"/

Some comparison to hold yourself up to. The U.S. has the worst poverty levels of all industrialized countries, and the WORST levels of poverty happen to occur in minorities (blacks, Hispanics, etc).

Why not compare it to Canada? Sweden? Australia? Britain? Why the U.S., where institutional racism is the order of the day?

Oh, now I remember. Zionist. Claptrap. It all makes sense now.

jakomo

No, I�m satisfied with the comparison to the Unites States. I don�t think you will find better with most of those other countries.

Also, keep in mind that saying the United States is the worst of the industrialized countries is saying that it�s the worst of the best. In some parts of the world, the authorities will still look the other way if you decide to set your wife on fire.

Given that honor killings often remain a private family affair, no official statistics are available on the practice or its frequency. According to a November 1997 report of the Woman's Empowerment Project published in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, there were 20 honor killings in Gaza and the West Bank in 1996. One representative of the group added, "We know there are more but no one publicizes it."

www.merip.org...

Mycroft: Nice. Yes, I'll go along with your math, and your sources, too. It does indeed appear that Arab-Israelis make more money than their Jordanian, Syrian and Saudi neighbors.

Kind of interesting that the specific statistics weren't available at any Israeli sites, but I'm not ready to jump off the deep end and postulate some Zionist conspiracy. (I'm really not too much of a conspiracy nut unless something REALLY seems wrong about a situation).

So, yeah, I asked you to prove your assertion and you did, I do stand (sit) corrected.

I'll see what I can dig up, it's gotta be out there somewhere.

And, whoa, about the burning of the wives, I'm sure if you did a study you'd find that the world's leader in wife-killing is the US (not just industrialized countries, either), and I'd imagine by a wide margin. Granted it's illegal, but it sure as heck doesn't stop them.

Don't they throw women into funerary pyres in parts of India if they are the dead man's still-living wives?



j

Originally posted by Jakomo
Mycroft: Nice. Yes, I'll go along with your math, and your sources, too. It does indeed appear that Arab-Israelis make more money than their Jordanian, Syrian and Saudi neighbors.

Kind of interesting that the specific statistics weren't available at any Israeli sites, but I'm not ready to jump off the deep end and postulate some Zionist conspiracy. (I'm really not too much of a conspiracy nut unless something REALLY seems wrong about a situation).

I've seen the stats before, I just couldn't find them yesterday. It's just that when you put "arab" and "israeli" in the same search, you get a lot of hits that have nothing to do with Arabs in Israel.

Originally posted by JakomoAnd, whoa, about the burning of the wives, I'm sure if you did a study you'd find that the world's leader in wife-killing is the US (not just industrialized countries, either), and I'd imagine by a wide margin. Granted it's illegal, but it sure as heck doesn't stop them.

Now you're interested in a balanced view?

lets just let both groups wipe each other out.