Does a Clone have a soul?!?

reply to post by Isis Fibonacci


From a Jewish point of view, the body, regardless of being a clone, is a union of the Breath and the Dust.

The union of the two results in "being".

Without the Breath or Neshama, there isn't existence or being.

So yes a clone does have "spirit" or the breath that gives it being.

Thats not quite the same though as the Germanic term Soule or the Greek term Psyche, which are very different concepts than Neshama.

Originally posted by zbeliever
reply to post by MaxBlack

 

I just have one question....How about test tube baby?Do they have a soul?

Forget about the test tube baby,

You don't have a soul.

'Soul' is pagan metaphysical philosophy.

Something like the "ether" of classical physics...

Or the 'mind' or the 'thinker' of the "scientists of consciousness".

Michael Cecil

Do human embryos and human clones have souls?

The Church affirms that human life is sacred from conception to natural death, thus asserting the inviolability of all human beings. So, the question is really, are embryos and clones, if ever produced, human beings?

This question is answered adequately by philosophy and science. Science shows us that different kinds of existing things, called a being, belong to specific categories of being. Among living beings we can determine from the genetic makeup of the individual what kind of being it is. Human sperm and egg cells have only half the complement of human genetic material, and a limited lifespan. They do not replicate and organize themselves in any way. They are "human" in that they come from human beings, but they are not human beings. However, after they unite to form a fertilized ovum all the genetic material that will ever be needed is present to constitute a human being. Furthermore, other than needing a special environment at different stages (whether the womb or the cradle), all that will determine their growth is the unfolding of the genetic plan contained within and the addition of nutrients and time. This cannot be said of sperm and egg. Their independent life is fixed. The life of a human being is not – all it needs is the right environment, food, water, oxygen and love. Whether two cells or two billion cells, this is true.

In the case of frozen embryos, if they can be revived and if they are then still living, then they are human beings, and all human beings by definition have a soul. Since such embryos have developed into human children we know this to be true. The same would be true of clones. If the processes, no matter how artificial and unnatural, result in a being that is materially human in makeup and can live and develop into a child, then that child will have a soul. No creature as materially complicated as a man can live without the spiritual form which theology calls the soul.
Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

Originally posted by Missing Blue Sky
Do human embryos and human clones have souls?

The Church affirms that human life is sacred from conception to natural death, thus asserting the inviolability of all human beings.

Yeah, sure.

That's the reason why the "Church" exterminated tens of thousands of Albigensians for teaching the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'...

And who knows how many tens and hundreds of thousands of Jews and Muslims for refusing to worship Jesus as 'God'.

That was the reason for the Inquisition, and the Crusades, and the witch-burnings: the "Church" was just doing its damnedest to "affirm that human life is sacred."

But, I guess, people just wouldn't learn or something.

They simply could not understand that the "Church" was so life-affirming.

Hell.

They deserved to die.

Michael Cecil

When this topic first came out about cloning a human being had a reaction that was both exciting and terrifing. The medical aspects of such could provide a miracle for all of the people who need a new kidney, heart or orther organ without any kind of rejection happening. But the question was also asked are we as a species ready for that kind of ability and the ramifications of such.
But the other set of questions that came out is on a more theological aspect of doing such actions. Having studied some of the buddhist philosophy the questions that came out, is would such a creation have a soul, and would that new life share the same karma as the host or have a seperate one. I asked different ministers, monks and nuns on such topic and the beliefe is split down the middle, half would state that no a clone would not have a soul, and the other half agree that such would have a soul. As for myself I find the concept of cloning a whole human being to be abhorrent, because it would either be the mark of vanity, or that we would be creating a sub class of human, to be used as body parts and as a slave race. Cloning for certain body parts, that is the height of modern medicine to where it can do the greatest good, but the whole individual brings up nightmares as then how long would it be before some one decided to try and clone a person from the past who had died. Then the question would be, would that person be the exact same as they were in life or would they view the world from a different point of view?

Just more stray thoughts.

Perhaps, we could experiments by having man's best friend - a dog, for example, - sniff a clone. If that dog sample reacts horribly at the clone, there is no soul in that clone. Test with different dogs and/or more than one dog. If all of them react badly towards the clone, then there is no soul in that clone. Simple but duh.

If a clone could come back from the dead and claim to have seen its relatives, angels, God, heaven, hell, etc., then perhaps that clone may have a soul.

reply to post by MaxBlack

A clone created by man would not.

I hate to break it to you but YOU were made by man, well a man and a woman, your parents.

You are a combination of genetic material from your parents, you were made in their image that's why you bear a resemblance to them.

A clone has no soul because it was not created by God's design for human life.

But the person who is being cloned has a soul and the clones is an identical copy of that person. The Clone therefore would have a soul since it is merely a copy of someone "created by God's design". Also how do you know God's design doesn't include cloning? God never explicitly stated anything about Cloning to my knowledge.

Clones are people too, they're just as much people as the second half of a set of twins

[edit on 19-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Of course a clone would have soul. A clone is little more than a very late identical twin. Do identical twins both have souls?

Or, perhaps I should say, since "souls" are not able to be measured, whatever humans born normally would have, a clone would have, in terms of the thing we call a "soul."

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

But the person who is being cloned has a soul and the clones is an identical copy of that person.

Yeah, sure.

And the "ether" of classical physics comes in 7 colors, including emerald green, and three flavors: chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry.

So you can have emerald green chocolate "ether", emerald green vanilla "ether" or emerald green strawberry "ether".

And, of course, you can do that with the other 6 colors as well.

But, as a 'theologian', I cannot tell you what those other 6 colors are.

That is a "mystery", 'classified information' which can only be understood by us 'theologians'.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by pikypiky
Simple but duh.

Hmmm. And how do you know dogs react badly to things without souls? I have had dogs who hated people who were clearly not clones, and they love their soulless stuffed animals. What makes you think they dont like the soulless?

Originally posted by pikypiky
If a clone could come back from the dead and claim to have seen its relatives, angels, God, heaven, hell, etc., then perhaps that clone may have a soul.

There would be some ethical problems with even testing this. Do you think we should take some clones, and induce a heart attack and then try to resuscitate them to find out? And assume all of them are soulless until one does? But what about the fact that not all humans have NDEs when they die and are resuscitated? Are some natural humans soulless?

I think the theory needs a little fleshing out.

reply to post by Michael Cecil


I'm just answering a hypothetical question here. I don't even believe in a soul if you want my honest opinion

There are 6 types of Quarks Michael, Up, Down, Strange, Charm, Top and Bottom.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

I'm just answering a hypothetical question here. I don't even believe in a soul if you want my honest opinion

As I figured.

But why encourage such a belief by even pretending that it is true?

Why not say, from the very outset: "What nonsense."?

There are 6 types of Quarks Michael, Up, Down, Strange, Charm, Top and Bottom.

Yeah, sure.

You are forgetting Quark, the Ferengi, who was a bar operator on Deep Space Nine.

So, there are, interestingly enough, even 7 quarks.

Michael Cecil

I'm the one that restarted this thread...and it has been enjoyable to read people pondering this question...I think I have come up with my answer and why...Here it goes:

Lets say your soul is like a bowl of liquid.Now this bowl has a gallon of water in it=128oz .When we are born a oz is used for our energy to live via "SOUL"...Now what about the 127oz you might ask.Well I've been told you go around this life with the same souls...They are used up as family members and people you are closest to...Oh ya your genetic code tells the gods what bowl to scoop the liquid from...When you die the liquid goes back to the same bowl to make a more interesting mixture...

So yes IMO a clone would have a soul....
Or at least a recipe for life...

Originally posted by mOjOm

Originally posted by Byrd

I see your point but identical twins aren't clones. Even the most identical of identical twins have differences within their genetic makeup. One will have slightly different biological differences over the other. An exact clone is an exact copy of your genetic code to the detail.

I personally was viewing the question from that viewpoint. For example: Imagine taking your genetic code and producing a new baby just like you in every way so that only environmental and/or social interactions would result in changes but all genetic traits good and bad would be exact to you now.

Not quite. People clone their pets today. The cloned pets often look somewhat different from the original one. Different patterns in the fur, and even differing temperaments. After the division, the separate organisms are exposed to somewhat differing environments, even if in the same womb. Therefore twins have differences. Probably the same with animals or human clones. And the environments will be even more different. Plus the genetic material is degraded. Cells from a 50 year old are not as high quality as cells from an 18 year old. That's why so many older new parents, have children born with health or learning disabilities.

Why are we talking about something that only God can know? We will never be able to prove that we natural borns have souls. Humans can't even agree upon a universal definition of a soul.

I don't think it will matter. The clone will be hunted down and killed by none other than Harrison Ford. I would be affraid if i were a clone, Harrison Ford was the only person to escape the death star with an acting career.