Are students programed to go to college?

Here in NZ the education system programs people to got to college. The result of this people that arent suited to college dont seem to be offerd many options or guidiance. Way to much emphis is put on gaining a bit of paper after four years of college.

Technical trades such as plumbing or electrical work seem to be overlooked and under valued. 6th and 7th form (second and last years of high school) need to be revamped. Maths , science and english should remail compulsy at 5th form level to ensure people have the basic skills needed for life. In the last years of high school why shouldnt shouldnt students gain skills that would assit them in gaining a Technical trade? Or even better why shouldnt students gain a technical trade before leaving school?

Heres another issue should every teacher have to degree to teach?
I understand that a maths teacher needs to know maths in order to teach that subject but why would a plumber or computer tec need a degree in order to pass on there trade? The education system misses out on some of our best brains because the system is intend on sending people to college.

I am interested in hearing the views of fellow members how do education systems stack up elsewhere?

Here in America, there are dumb-asses abound. We have crack cocain, pre-teenage pregnancy, and many people that die before their twenty fifth birthday. People here in America are offered what options and guidance they seek. In short OPPORTUNITY.
Why not let some yokel off the street teach and train our future? So, they couldn't commit to four years of "extra" school, I'm sure they have enough determination. After all, who has the time and patience for learning the proper way to do things?
A degree tells much more than knowledge, it tells determination and conviction. I don't know about NZ, but in Bum F*** Texas, most everyone I know and live next to learned how to weld in shop.
That doesn't mean that a single one of us are pros. There are however certain people that have pride in calling themselves masters of their trade (most went to extra school, trade schools even) who get hired 99 out of 100 times over a shmuck who claims... "I can do that."
I don't know a lot about NZ (New Zealand I assume), but capitalism is working OK for us.

To comment on the teacher bit - a teacher should definitely know how to to teach. If that means having a degree then that's what it should be.

Just because someone knows everything there is to know about X doesn't mean they can teach it. Not well, anyway.

You need to learn how to run a classroom, how to share knowledge in different ways (visual, verbal, etc.) to reach everyone - everyone learns a little bit different. You have to be able to keep students engaged, notice when students are lagging behind, when they don't understand but aren't asking questions, etc.

Not everyone should/can be a teacher.

Originally posted by quango
To comment on the teacher bit - a teacher should definitely know how to to teach. If that means having a degree then that's what it should be.

Every single teacher in America has a degree in teaching.
Our education system is failing, America does not hold a top rank in any scientific field.
We are losing hi-tech jobs to the tune of a million a year.

Originally posted by quango
Just because someone knows everything there is to know about X doesn't mean they can teach it. Not well, anyway.

Neither does a degree in teaching. What value is a person in any school level, if they have never held a real job, had to struggle with employment competition, or seen a pink layoff slip from the industry in which they are a professional?
I'm describing teachers. All they know is 12 years of school, plus four, then a lifetime more.
They are not even in control of their classroom, a school board, the state, and the federal government control everything they have to say to the classroom. Mere Robots.

Originally posted by quango
You need to learn how to run a classroom, how to share knowledge in different ways (visual, verbal, etc.) to reach everyone - everyone learns a little bit different. You have to be able to keep students engaged, notice when students are lagging behind, when they don't understand but aren't asking questions, etc.

And this is obviously not coming out of the four year colleges, the bachelor's degrees.
Its a personality thing, charisma, leadership skills, and that is not something a degree gives you.

Originally posted by quango
Not everyone should/can be a teacher.

Well technically, everyone has something to teach. Even a homeless man can teach you something about surviving for fourty years on the streets, if thats what it takes.
The Gas station attendant can teach you about an industry everyone is dependant on yet a job nobody has any respect for.
It boils down to the value of the education and the ability of the teacher to communicate the value of that education, which American teachers largely fail at.

In America the majority are not prepared for college, although they are told that without college you can't succeed, and then while they are in college their future jobs are farmed out
overseas. The American education system is designed to produce consumers, a working class, and desperate kids who will join the military to escape perpetual poverty.

I am going back to school because a degree is the only way to get out of the USA and work in a foreign country. I was going to go for an education degree, but the curriculum for teaching is awful, complete crap.

After visiting my old trade school, I've seen the program decimated.
Tell me how you can learn a trade in 45 minutes a day, with a 15 minute break in the middle of class? Preposterous!! When I went to school it was three hours of training a day, I came out with over 1,500 hours of experience, or the equivalent of more than 37.5 weeks of on the job training.
And I still couldn't get a job until my resume said "college", which after thirteen years in the business I know for a fact you can lie about because nobody ever checks.

College is over rated, a degree does not mean smart, not in the very least.

Collage and in my case University is a choice. There are plenty of dumb people in highschool. I feel that we are not progarmmed to go, we desire to go for a better life and future.

You have voted Legalizer for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month. icelid capitalism is working fine in New Zealand. But the capitalism vs commuism debate has little or no relvance to the topic.
Can a degree teach you how to relate to people in a classroom?
The answer would appear to be no.

For the record, I live in Edmonton, Canada, and here are my opinions and some facts on the matter as it is here.

First of all, my high school was what is called a 'composite high school'. We had elective courses that were excellent preparation for trade school, and were, to a certain degree, designed for that sort of person. There was automotives, construction (basically woodworking), drafting, computer programming, even welding. Now, all schools here do NOT have that extensive a list of programs, but I attended the largest high school in western Canada, so we had a lot more choices at my high school than many get, I think.

In spite of that, there have been numerous shortages in the trades areas in my province. If you have pretty much any sort of tradesman degree here, you can get a fairly well paying job. Even so, our trades enrollment is way down, and no one seems to know for sure why.

As for 'the system' programming us for college, my experience in high school was that in grades 10/11 there was very little of that. In grade 12 courses, particulary things like calculus and physics, the teachers were always mentioning college, but they seemed to be aiming that message at the 'smart' ones, or at least the ones with high marks (not necessarily synonymous).

For whether teachers should have degrees or not, well, that is a tough issue. I think you will agree that a teacher (or doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc) requires some method to determine whether they are competent in the field or not. In our society, the current method, obviously, is college. Are there people without college degrees that would make awesome teachers, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc? Sure, but we have no way of knowing it unless they prove it by obtaining a degree, which is not a foolproof method, but anyone who can get a college degree has to be at least somewhat competent. I suppose there could be some sort of 'challenge exams', where you could try and write exams without taking the courses first, or demonstrate technical skills in 'hands-on' exams (i.e. fix this car in two hours).

I could go on forever on this subject, I have a lot to say about the state of education. Personally, I don't like the state of things as it is now. However, I tried hard to stick to the questions xpert11 asked without going off topic, but I'd be happy to add more if requested.

Originally posted by Legalizer

Every single teacher in America has a degree in teaching.
Our education system is failing, America does not hold a top rank in any scientific field.
We are losing hi-tech jobs to the tune of a million a year.

Simply not true. Not all teachers have degrees. They can be given "emergency degrees"(not real degrees) that cover them enough, but that doesnt mean they know what they are doing. In fact, this "emergency degree" is not a rarity. Simply get a lack of teachers and you can justify giving out an emergency one. We dont pay teachers enough and give them too much crap for them to flock to our schools.

Now to answer xpert11. In the US, we are very college minded. But despite the this tracked mind, my school is pushing against it a little bit.

Every 11th grader has to go to a scheduled meeting with their class counselor to discuss their plans for the future. My counselor always brings up the idea of a JC or trade school with students, some who have never even thought about it before, and she gets a feel for the ones who would fit in better there instead of a trade school and recommends that.

---Pineapple

New Zealand schools (and indeed pretty much all schools) have several agenda's:

1. First for socialisation of future members of society. This means that schools teach you how to exist and interact with each other in a group.
   
2. Provide the base knowledge skills (reading, writing, etc) again so that the individual can function in society.
   
3. Provide specific skills so that an individual can persue a distinct path of knowledge.
   

On the socialisation of the individual some people wont like that, because it kind of programs kids along "accepted lines" according to society. It isn't a totally bad thing.

Base knowledge is there so that you know how to survive in society. How do you find shelter, food and clothing. You say they don't teach that sort of thing. Maybe not specifically but most of the "survival skills" you use every day are used without even realising it. Holding a conversation, shopping, working, playing, whatever you are using these learned skills. In a simple example, you need to call for help (111, 911, 999, whichever your country uses) it is these base skills that allow you to recognise the characters on the phone to push. The ability to cross the street without getting yourself killed is pretty handy and that is one sort of thing that comes up in this area.

Specific knowledge is a little trickier and comes later in your schooling. Basically it is recognised that at some point you need to specialise in a specific skill set in order to gain the appropriate level of knowledge in the one area (eg. doctor, teacher, carpenter).

In New Zealand this last area has been slightly reshaped in the last few years. When I went to school, those entering into a "profession" went on to University and those heading for the trades went to a tradeschool or apprenticeship situation.

A bit different now with NCEA, NZQA and all sorts of others all intermingling at different levels. They're designed to allow people to change the career path they are on easily and to diversify their learning.

The bottom line is the higher you go in education the more specific the information set of the learning is. This is reasonable, you don't need to learn a lot of things about brain surgery if you are going to be an accountant, but most accountants would know some basic first aid.

So the more specific knowledge areas are done at a university level and yes it is a schools job to push people into those sorts of things. To attain a higher level of knowledge is a school's base purpose after all, for whatever agenda in question at the time.

Degrees (in NZ) only decide the level of pay in terms of the ability to teach, which is something not everyone can do. However those with that ability can make pretty good use of the extra study obtaining that degree as opposed to those with a diploma. The additional study that goes into the degree is pretty open ended so a teacher can add study in Psych, education, art, math, whatever. All knowledge is good and the more you have of it the better you can be or do.

Right, now having said all of that, I'll now contradict myself a little. Personally I believe that Maths is a deteriorating subject in NZ. Our top performers might be improving keeping the average up, but I think the Mean is slipping back. I tutor 5th and 6th math, or at least I did until I realised the people I was helping didn't even know their times tables and I gave it up. I certainly noticed a slipping back of the base subjects in the tens or more years I was doing that.

The standard of teachers is also slipping but we don't really care about that. If we did then they would be given more respect and better pay, so generally people are pretty happy about the way education is slipping further back. If we really were worried about the standard of the education system then no government that abuses education, or at least refuses to fix it, would be voted in. Don't worry I know many people care, but after typing such a long and rambling post I am allowed a bit of cynicism.

Also you mentioned the lack of need for some teaching areas to have a degree. You are probably right, but remember that while a lot of those people have the knowledge of the area (eg metalwork) and the ability to pass on that knowledge, the further study in the degree gives them more knowledge on how to do it in a formal setting, with different people who all have their own viewpoint and level of enthusuasm. It isn't just about knowing the subject, and all learning helps with that. As you are taught you learn a little about teaching, whatever the subject.

I agree with you generally about the standards, xpert11 , but I think they need to do a better job of teaching leading up to the 6th & 7th form. By the time you are finishing up high school, you should not be worrying about basic maths and literacy skills. If you are, then school has failed you (although vice versa is possible too).

A little secret about teachers. When I was at Teacher's College I was told to keep myself occupied in a couple of classes while they worked on the (shockingly bad) literacy and numeracy skills of the other teacher trainees. As you can see by this and my previous posts I am okay but not perfect in spelling and grammar, so that tells you something about the quality of teacher trainee's at that time ;-)

Note: I have typed this quickly while at work, so apologies if I haven't covered any area of my post extensively enough. I have tried to diferentiate between personal opinion and general observation.

Also consider that the "educational system" is misnamed. It should be properly called "job preparation system" or "mental/physical conditioning system". Why? Because people most often don't go to college to gain knowledge, they go to learn some skill that will make the money. So they of course focus on "passing", not on "learning". The point is to get the diploma, the grade, the "credentials" - while knowledge itself, understanding, ability to critically think, and ability to reason are all secondary, and the vast majority get out of college exactly what they came there for - they are conditioned with some skill to make money with. But their minds are even more atrophied than they were before they entered college. Nevermind the parties/drinking that almost defines the stereotypical "college student" nowadays. That stereotype is sadly often true.

But who can blame them? Our society is structured not around knowledge, but around money. That's what makes the world go round. It is not structured around having empathy towards others, but about selfishness and gaining as much "stuff" and "money" as you can in your lifetime, which makes you "successful". It is all about entertainment and self-gratification, and even our poor excuses for "spiritual pursuits" are most often completely corrupt and are in reality just more self-gratification and wishful thinking, and are in fact very much materialistic.

Nothing that does not promise a "reward" survives for long in our culture. The better something feels, the better it will sell and the more popular it becomes. You know the saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will come". So most students in colleges are just fine with the pisspoor excuse for "teachers" that our colleges have. Why? Because they don't WANT to truly learn, they want an easy grade, and an easy diploma, so they can make the salary that college promises them. And teachers don't WANT to teach, even those who do know something - again being a teacher is primarily a JOB - a way to make MONEY. There are exceptions on both sides of course, there are students who truly wish to learn, and teachers who truly wish to teach. But they are the exception to the rule.

One thing I learned however, is that those who TRULY wish to learn, do not need a designated teacher. Again, college teachers are there to shove information down your throat that you don't really care for but force yourself to memorize anyway just to get the grade/diploma/credentials. Those who truly wish to learn find their own ways to learn, without needing classrooms, professors, lectures, or any of that crap. Of course, they too are usually forced to go to college anyway, because they are told that unless they have that little paper of credentials, they won't make it.

I know far too many examples of people who understand a field of knowledge much better than most college students do, yet they have completely taught themselves using books, the internet, and collaborating with like-minded people in networks. Not because they are smarter than everyone else, but because they truly wanted to learn and put in the effort to do so. There is always help, without needing the institutionalized systems we have established to create an illusion that you're doomed without them. In one sense you are, because that little diploma usually gains you much respect that you never really deserved anyway. In another sense, you are not, because those who wish to learn never needed colleges or schools.


[edit on 27-6-2005 by lilblam]

Originally posted by xpert11
Here in NZ the education system programs people to got to college. The result of this people that arent suited to college dont seem to be offerd many options or guidiance. Way to much emphis is put on gaining a bit of paper after four years of college.

Technical trades such as plumbing or electrical work seem to be overlooked and under valued. 6th and 7th form (second and last years of high school) need to be revamped. Maths , science and english should remail compulsy at 5th form level to ensure people have the basic skills needed for life. In the last years of high school why shouldnt shouldnt students gain skills that would assit them in gaining a Technical trade? Or even better why shouldnt students gain a technical trade before leaving school?

Heres another issue should every teacher have to degree to teach?
I understand that a maths teacher needs to know maths in order to teach that subject but why would a plumber or computer tec need a degree in order to pass on there trade? The education system misses out on some of our best brains because the system is intend on sending people to college.

I am interested in hearing the views of fellow members how do education systems stack up elsewhere?

its the same in the uk also, i have just come through the system.
its obsessive, they try and tell people constantly how much more money you will earn if you get a degree.
at the same time, they increase the costs of going to uni.

Originally posted by xpert11
Here in NZ the education system programs people to got to college. The result of this people that arent suited to college dont seem to be offerd many options or guidiance. Way to much emphis is put on gaining a bit of paper after four years of college.

Technical trades such as plumbing or electrical work seem to be overlooked and under valued. 6th and 7th form (second and last years of high school) need to be revamped. Maths , science and english should remail compulsy at 5th form level to ensure people have the basic skills needed for life. In the last years of high school why shouldnt shouldnt students gain skills that would assit them in gaining a Technical trade? Or even better why shouldnt students gain a technical trade before leaving school?

Heres another issue should every teacher have to degree to teach?
I understand that a maths teacher needs to know maths in order to teach that subject but why would a plumber or computer tec need a degree in order to pass on there trade? The education system misses out on some of our best brains because the system is intend on sending people to college.

I am interested in hearing the views of fellow members how do education systems stack up elsewhere?

are students programed to go to college? yes i think they are because u hear about it ur whole life, if you dont go to college u wont get anywere in life, but thats really not true their are alot of people that i know that are fine with their way of life and they did not go to college. it seems like if u dont go to college more restrictions are placed upon u or u are looked down upon because of this. the question that i have is why is this? especialy if u are happy wiith the way things are going in your life and u feel u dont feel the need for college.

Originally posted by xpert11
icelid capitalism is working fine in New Zealand. But the capitalism vs commuism debate has little or no relvance to the topic.
Can a degree teach you how to relate to people in a classroom?
The answer would appear to be no.

I didn't mean to imply that NZ is communist. I apologize. My point is that people wanting to continue their education and earn something of their own merits is the main idea of capitalism.

A degree can't teach you how to relate to people in a classroom; charisma can. However, if you just have charisma, but nothing to teach from lack of knowledge, the only thing you would be is a motivational speaker. Not an educator.

The main thing that seperates us from the early Romans or what have you, is our knowledge. We need a personal way to pass that on, and teachers work better than people reading books at their own will.

I still don't understand what's so bad about "programming" people to learn more. It's better than "programming" them to watch TV, buy Nikes, vote for the lesser of two evils, or be satisfied with any current system.

xpert11, let's get to the heart of the matter. What are your thoughts and inspirations for a post that is challenging the educational system worldwide? In other words, what's the point of this thread?

Of course students are pushed to go to college! If you want to make a better life for yourself and your family, the easiest thing to do is spend those four extra years learning. I'm not sure what university some of the critics around here went to, but the difference in intelligence between a high school and college graduate is staggering--thus the higher paying jobs. It's as easy as that.

================

By the way, on an (maybe) unrelated note:

Proud Athiest
Crusader againgst reglion

Niiiiiiice!

I think that kids in good schools are programmed, but kids in less desirable schools are not given full information on college opportunities. It is a further example of the effort to divide people along class lines. I teach a class for low-income parents on how to pay for college for your kids (or themselves).

I agree that college isn't necessary or even desirable for everyone. Heck, Michael Dell, Founder of Dell Computers is a college dropout. But I do beleive it is the responsibility of public high schools to educate students on the opportunities that are available.

backtoreality the point of this thread is that Im an asking if college degrees are suited to everyone and if students are given enough options.
Do people with degress make more money in NZ? Im unsure one would think this would be the case however I knew someone who was a qualified baker (not a college degree I know) who was making the same hourly wage as the person who served customers at the counter.

I think students are in a way forced to go to college, now a days thats all you hear in high school. Make sure you go to college, you wont be anything unless you do. But what those people dont realize is that college isnt for everyone, we need plumbers, construction workers and so on as much as we need doctors and lawyers. Not to mention that electricians, plumbers, construction workers etc. work hard but more often than not make a lot of money.