Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

Originally posted by Zipdot
The fact is, he didn't match the Jewish requirements. Had he done so, there would not be a rift between Jews and Christians today.

The Jewish people were under the impression that the messiah would come and set up a physical kingdom.

We (all people) are seperated from God by our sins. That is THE huge problem that God is concerned with first. Jesus came to remove the sins of anybody who desires that. That is the mission He came to accomplish. The Jews and many people then and now miss that point. Why, because some sin gives temporal pleasure for a season and exalts self. But anybody who desires to have their sins removed and be restored to God and someday see and live with Him forever can come while the opportunity is available.

People have no patience and because Christ has been gone for 2000 years some are quick to assume that this whole Jesus thing must have been interpreted wrong. While we have no patience, God abounds in patience. If He didn't we in the 21st century wouldn't be here.

I've posted this before. To God 1000 years is like a day. Jesus has been gone for only 2 days in God's eyes and timing. 2 days is not very long at all.

Originally posted by Zipdot
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

You are speaking of a building type structure I presume. You know I have no idea if there will be a third temple, building type structure or not. I've read different things from people both ways.

This is what I do know. Jesus did come to build a temple where God Himself could dwell. But it was of a grander design than anyone could have imagined. The temple He is building in which God will literally dwell is made up of individual people. At acceptance of Christ as Savior, people have the Holy Spirit(who is the God of the universe) literally come and live in them and take up residence in them. That is the temple He is building, us. The verse where God says to bind His laws on their foreheads and hands in the OT, is also referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer. The Holy Spirit in us, changes our thinking and renews our mind(binding on our head) and what we do(our hand) is changed. We can think right and do right. The Jews did a physical thing with that, when God means it to be a spiritual thing.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Zipdot
The fact is, he didn't match the Jewish requirements. Had he done so, there would not be a rift between Jews and Christians today.

The Jewish people were under the impression that the messiah would come and set up a physical kingdom.

Well, the "impression" that they are "under" is scriptural. Their prophecy is unfulfilled by Jesus. It goes a little further beyond "an impression."

We (all people) are seperated from God by our sins. That is THE huge problem that God is concerned with first. Jesus came to remove the sins of anybody who desires that. That is the mission He came to accomplish.

Yes, I do understand that this is the basis of Christianity as set forth by the gospel of Paul. Unfortunately, this is not in accordance with the Old Testament:

The words "Original Sin" don't exist in the Bible or Jewish writings. The "fall" of Adam was an interpretation formed sometime after the Exile and return of the Jews to Judea. This is the heart of Christian theology as taught by Paul. Jesus was some kind of human/deity sacrifice to make up for the alleged "sin" of Adam where mankind became mortal as punishment for Adam. Quoting Paul,

Rom. 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

Rom. 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"

1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

No amount of hype or theological double-talk changes the fact this whole concept is immoral and unjust. Punishing millions of people for the acts of one is irrational. The concept of Original Sin is unsupported in the Jewish scriptures:

Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

2 Kings 14:6, But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

There are HEAPS more, but I can't quote too much - here's a link. VERY interesting.

The Jews and many people then and now miss that point. Why, because some sin gives temporal pleasure for a season and exalts self. But anybody who desires to have their sins removed and be restored to God and someday see and live with Him forever can come while the opportunity is available.

Again, I do understand the postulations of Christian forgiveness. I don't think I or the Jewish people are missing any points here.

People have no patience and because Christ has been gone for 2000 years some are quick to assume that this whole Jesus thing must have been interpreted wrong. While we have no patience, God abounds in patience. If He didn't we in the 21st century wouldn't be here.

I would say that the Jews have incredible patience, as they are still waiting for the COMING, as opposed to the "second coming."

I've posted this before. To God 1000 years is like a day. Jesus has been gone for only 2 days in God's eyes and timing. 2 days is not very long at all.

Personally, I interpret this Bible passage:

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

As a description of the timelessness of heaven.

And this:

Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

As illustrative of the relativity of time in light of certain factors, such as expectance or whatever (i.e., "damn, woman, it seems like just yesterday that you dumped me, and here we are, 10 years later, and I've got two kids and a hundred thousand million dollars and a yacht...")

Zip

Thanks dbrandt, is nice to see the side of the Christan beliefs as you so eloquently post it, I enjoy your views on the matters discussed here.

You bring a nice point of how Christianity has become a religion of faith in our modern times.

Now about Zoroastrianism, some believe that it was the blueprint for Christianity and Judaism.

It is said that what stopped Zoroastrianisms from been the religion in charge rather than Christianity was a battle in 480BC. The battle of Marathon and later Salami put a stop of the spread of the Persian empire and Zoroastrianism.

The battles defeat and the decline of the Persian Empire brought the religion almost to extinction.

Zoroastrianism was absorbed into Judaism and later into Christianity alone with Mithraism.

Zoroastrianism incorporated the believes of the "devil" "Paradise" "The last judgment" and "The resurrection of the dead", All these are part of Christianity.

Now many Hebrews scholars will argue that it was not Judaism the one that blended with Zoroastrianism but the other way around, actually they have never been able to prove that for a fact.

The difference between both religions is in the way that Christianity will put an emphasis on faith while Zoroastrianism is on works.

When Alexander the Great conquered Persia and Greeks cities were established in the area Zoroastrianism started to decline.

Today it is said that about ten thousand followers of Zoroaster are scattered in Persia.

Originally posted by dbrandt
You are speaking of a building type structure I presume. You know I have no idea if there will be a third temple, building type structure or not. I've read different things from people both ways.

This is what I do know. Jesus did come to build a temple where God Himself could dwell. But it was of a grander design than anyone could have imagined. The temple He is building in which God will literally dwell is made up of individual people. At acceptance of Christ as Savior, people have the Holy Spirit(who is the God of the universe) literally come and live in them and take up residence in them. That is the temple He is building, us. The verse where God says to bind His laws on their foreheads and hands in the OT, is also referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer. The Holy Spirit in us, changes our thinking and renews our mind(binding on our head) and what we do(our hand) is changed. We can think right and do right. The Jews did a physical thing with that, when God means it to be a spiritual thing.

Hehe, yeah, well, the scripture was talking about a physical temple. The one that was built twice and destroyed twice. Nice allegory, though. Your faith is strong, and many people find that admirable.

Zip

If this were a boxing match and I were scoring it, the Pagans would be so far ahead i'd be demanding the coach in the christians corner throw in the towel before they end up in the hospital.

I'm not a christian of course, but then again, neither was Jesus. I figure that puts me in pretty good company. Jesus didn't take to kindly to any of those other religions either and as a spiritual anarchist I know EXACTLY how he feels on the matter. Yes, Jesus was the son of god, so am I. If your female your the daughter of god.

Ah well, this is just my humble opinion.

Wupy

Zipdot...well done. I also have been studying all this for sometime now. There is one thing that i have been trying to figuare out, all these so called messiahs have come and gone and they all preached Immortality! does this have a connection to the serpent in the creation story? He also is to have say " you will not surely die" Is this not the same message that Buddah, jesus, krishna, ect.. taught?

Originally posted by marg6043
Is not doubt that the Old Testament is full of stories taken from other civilizations myth of the times.

That is only true of Genesis (creation, flood myth, etc.)

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by marg6043
Is not doubt that the Old Testament is full of stories taken from other civilizations myth of the times.

That is only true of Genesis (creation, flood myth, etc.)

That does not stand to logic.

If one book is "borrowed", so may many others be as well.

Misfit

Edit = 37 pots of coffee and I STILL can't type!!

[edit on 1-7-2005 by Misfit]

Originally posted by dbrandt
Christ came 2000 years ago and died for sins, but the beginning of this was back in the book of Genesis.

No, it wasn't. Why do Christians feel the need to find Jesus in nearly every passage in the Tanach? It simply isn't there in the text - anywhere!

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by marg6043
Is not doubt that the Old Testament is full of stories taken from other civilizations myth of the times.

That is only true of Genesis (creation, flood myth, etc.)

I have to forcefully disagree with this. Please re-read this thread, dozens and dozens of examples have been provided for both Old Testament and New Testament borrowed stories, but I think the emphasis has been on the New Testament, in this thread.

Zip

Originally posted by dbrandt
The Jewish people were under the impression that the messiah would come and set up a physical kingdom.

Oh yes, and a Christian who doesn't know Hebrew from Swahili, who reads the Bible from texts that were translated (poorly) from Hebrew to Greek to English, knows the requirements for the Messiah much better than the civilization that WROTE the Bible.

Originally posted by Misfit

That does not stand to logic.

If one book is "borrowed", so may many others be as well.

Misfit

Edit = 37 pots of coffee and I STILL can't type!!

[edit on 1-7-2005 by Misfit]

First of all, the books were likely written at different periods in history.... all of them were probably originally orally transmitted stories. The mode of writing in Genesis is far different from what you find in, say, Leviticus. Furthermore, many of the later books contain stories about actual people who have been verified to be real by archaeologists and historians.

So just because the older stories in Genesis "borrow" some ideas does not necessarily mean that the rest is "borrowed". Even what is borrowed was still significantly altered (Epic of Gilgamesh vs. the Flood story, for example).

Originally posted by Zipdot
I have to forcefully disagree with this. Please re-read this thread, dozens and dozens of examples have been provided for both Old Testament and New Testament borrowed stories, but I think the emphasis has been on the New Testament, in this thread.

As far as the "New Testament" is concerned, I agree.. though the borrowing is not necessarily in the text itself, it is in the practice of the religion. Since you have a mixture of history and myth in the Tanach, particularly from Exodus onward, I think you'd have a hard time making that case. I'll give you Genesis though, as there are clear, provable examples.

Actually most of the Genesis begining on the formation of earth was taken from the Hermopolitan Creation that the describe the state of the universe before Creation. Occurs the four deities mention on the Hermopolitan Creation myth was omitted but the essential Characteristics was retained.

historylink101.net...

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by dbrandt
Christ came 2000 years ago and died for sins, but the beginning of this was back in the book of Genesis.

No, it wasn't. Why do Christians feel the need to find Jesus in nearly every passage in the Tanach? It simply isn't there in the text - anywhere!

Um, yah it was and still is. Genesis 3:15 And I shall put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy thy head, and thou shalt bruise his(Jesus Christ) heel.

Most translations show that the passage says HE will crush YOUR head (woman) and YOU will crush HIS heel (man). It's talking about man and woman... Unless you think Jesus is gonna crush your head?

Weird passage, though, anyways. It shifts audiences halfway through.

Please read these translations and tell me what you think.

Zip

[edit on 7/1/2005 by Zipdot]

I always see that part of the bible as the submission of woman to men and her condemnation for eternity.

Now I always see also in the interpretations that woman enemy was not the serpent but man itself.

Occurs this is just my personal "female" view of it.

Originally posted by Zipdot
Most translations show that the passage says HE will crush YOUR head (woman) and YOU will crush HIS heel (man). It's talking about man and woman... Unless you think Jesus is gonna crush your head?


Zip

Genesis 3:14 God is talking to satan and the serpent. Verse 15 He's still talking to satan. Christ has and will defeat satan. See also www.biblestudy.org...

Originally posted by marg6043
I always see that part of the bible as the submission of woman to men and her condemnation for eternity.

Now I always see also in the interpretations that woman enemy was not the serpent but man itself.

Occurs this is just my personal "female" view of it.

Women and men, neither, have to be condemned for eternity, because there is salvation in Christ.

Men and women do struggle against each other, that is a result of sin. Be- fore sin entered the human race Adam and Eve complimented each other and had a relationship that no one else has ever had, and one that I don't think can be entirely comprehended, since they were the only two to have ever experienced it. Every relationship since them have had struggles.