Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory

Geek101.

I'm interested in you thoughts about Hadith.

Another question for you. In reading the Quran, I of course came across the interruption of Surah 59, often called "the Satanic verses."

Non-muslim critics claim that this is a place where you can see the original moon-god cult that was later overlaid by islam.

I have understood from various muslims that one explanation is that when Muhamad proscribed the prayers to the three daughters of Allah, he was possessed by Satan. As an outsider, that seems like a pretty shocking claim, for the author of a religious tradition to be possessed by a demon at ANY time.

Not wanting to offend anyone's faith, but I am curious for your opinion, especially since I take it you were raised muslim?

If I may post your question correctly.

"That's a good point, orangetom...
But since that seems to diverge away from this particular topic, why not start a new thread"

My point in the question about the RCC and why they so often use it to represent all of Christianity by default is exactly the topic line used in this title page.
The very conduct of the RCC historically is that it smells and looks ceremoniously to be Christian but it's history and overall conduct indicates it is not. It is merely hellenic phariseeism made to look Christian. This causes me to wonder how it is any different from pagan cultures and religions looking for power and control in ancient times up to even today. So why is it so often used to represent "All" of Christianity carte blanche. It just doesnt make good nonsense to me. It is possible to fool and decieve that many people. Even people of letters???
What clued me into the facts finally ..was a book on the history of the RCC wherein it described about 900 AD a house of prostitution in Rome for servicing the priesthood exclusively. I was at first shocked ..but then later it caused me to look deeper in to the history.

When you see enough of these types of events if you are a thinker..you ask yourself what is actually happening in history, who and why it is presented this way.

Just some food for thought for some of you.
Thanks,
Orangetom

Protestantism is free and clear of any historical black marks, right?

I'm a Protestant. I also understand the history that bears that label. What matters is an individual's relationship with God. Are you John 3:16 or are you not? That's the criteria and promise God gave us. So before we do any finger-pointing on this thread too (same thing going on another current thread), I think it's time to take the plank out of our own eye before working on anyone else's dust. Get to know the people individually, talk with them about God. That's the best way to get to know their church. Each and every Christian church should be telling their people to read the Book and have a personal relationship with God. If they do this, who are we to point out their faults?

1 Corinthians 10 - "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas (Peter)'; still another, 'I follow Christ.'
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Where you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name...For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power".

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Pray, train, study,
God bless.


[edit on 20-7-2005 by saint4God]

Often when I go into a convenience store and go to the check out stand I see copies of "Time" magazine. When they have articles on religion they always use the RCC as a representation of all of Christian religion. Whenever they use femminism and religion they use Mariology. Amazing to me to see this misrepresentation. The obviously count on the concept that most people dont know much history. They are correct in this assumption. I myself dont know that much history but what they are doing is obviously using the ignorance of the public as a default setting to play through.
I use Time magazine as a leading example but this is done by others.

I detest this type of organization. It is mostly Nicolaitianism..which the Lord says he hates. The RCC is dominant in this though they have alot of competition from other denominations.
The Lord's church is a organism...not a organization. The organization can be infiltrated and hijacked...as is often the case in history.
Are there faithful peoples among the Catholics...most certainly. Same with other denominations. People of the Word..who somehow have seen past the organization. Amazing to me that this would happen in man made corrupted systems but it does.....but not by the miracles of men. Same with protestants et al.

By the way ..the poster who said that the protestants too have black marks on them. Yes I agree. I am familiar with some of the history of Martin Luther and how he eventually turned on the Hebrews though he is not the only one.

Thanks for some great posts folks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
By the way ..the poster who said that the protestants too have black marks on them. Yes I agree. I am familiar with some of the history of Martin Luther and how he eventually turned on the Hebrews though he is not the only one.

I was thinking more of the crusades and witch hunts, but maybe this is an opportunity for me to learn more. What was Luther's deal with the Hebrews?

I see what you mean on the revisit orangetom, and think it was fair (though it matters not what -I- think really. My concern is with what He thinks). There is a lot of 'shouting across the pews' around here, much to my surprise.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

saint...you may not have to worry about 'what He thinks.

If you didnt goto confession friday, you are not allowed to receive the Lords grace via communion.

The Lord hates the doctrine of the RCC, which is the same as that of the nicolaitans. I just mentioned this in that 'other thread'.

Why do you insist on saying there is shouting between the pews when the doctrine of the RCC is based on biblical and nonbiblical doctrine.

I tried to show that that setup does not work with my 2 Kings post.

Ive always admired the way you can stick to scripture and maintain your bearing in ATS with all that comes at us...but that makes it all the more bewildering why you cannot see that the RCC is preaching a different doctrine then the one of the bible.

Originally posted by jake1997
saint...you may not have to worry about 'what He thinks.

Huh? Not sure what you mean.

Originally posted by jake1997
If you didnt goto confession friday, you are not allowed to receive the Lords grace via communion.

Okay. Catholics believe going to confessional as a regular practice is a good habit. If the person confessing is sincere and reforms their ways, why is this a problem? Also, there are many protestant churches who won't let you have communion if you're under 'church discipline' and such. I don't understand why anyone would be denied communion if they wish it...but it's the church's property, money, and such so they can do as they wish. Jesus said to "do this in rememberence of me" and did NOT add "and it must be a church". What's that mean? It means when you're with your family, friends or whoever at the dinner table, break some bread and talk about Jesus. Am I off base here?

Originally posted by jake1997
The Lord hates the doctrine of the RCC, which is the same as that of the nicolaitans. I just mentioned this in that 'other thread'.

I'm trying to follow along, please be patient with me.

Originally posted by jake1997
Why do you insist on saying there is shouting between the pews when the doctrine of the RCC is based on biblical and nonbiblical doctrine.

Again, most churches have their book of 'customs and courtesies' and I've yet to meet one that doesn't unless they're brand-spankin' new. If not for any ceremony, then certainly for structure and government (no, not political but financial and organizational). So guess what, we's all guilty as charged on that one. If we wanna toss out all nonbiblical doctrine, then fine by me BUT touch that Bible and you're gonna see a not-so-passive side of me.

Originally posted by jake1997
I tried to show that that setup does not work with my 2 Kings post.

Ive always admired the way you can stick to scripture and maintain your bearing in ATS with all that comes at us...

Thank you ^_^. I think you have a lot of great things to say here too. When you're positive, you're really helping a lot of us out.

Originally posted by jake1997
but

Ah crap, here comes the "but"...

Originally posted by jake1997
that makes it all the more bewildering why you cannot see that the RCC is preaching a different doctrine then the one of the bible.

If I go to a Catholic church and they tell me to read my Bible and talk to God, then doctrine makes no difference. Scripture and our personal relationship with God should be making the difference in our lives, yes?

some good posts here from both of you .

I must apologize and make haste off to work as I work graveyard shift here. I will muse on your posts tonight and consider my reply for when I get off in the morning .

Thanks,
Orangetom

Okay. Catholics believe going to confessional as a regular practice is a good habit. If the person confessing is sincere and reforms their ways, why is this a problem? Also, there are many protestant churches who won't let you have communion if you're under 'church discipline' and such. I don't understand why anyone would be denied communion if they wish it...but it's the church's property, money, and such so they can do as they wish. Jesus said to "do this in rememberence of me" and did NOT add "and it must be a church". What's that mean? It means when you're with your family, friends or whoever at the dinner table, break some bread and talk about Jesus. Am I off base here?

Yo bro. Your spot on. Bullseye. Dead center.

Unfortunately: You just preached a different gospel then the RCC. Communion is only through the church.
This is a major bone of contention right there. That nicolatian word again.

This is the 'controlling religion' thing that the atheists see and mention so much.

Back to confession.
Your sins are grevious to the priest. You must say 40 'Our Fathers" , 35 'Hail Mary's", and ...

heck... ill just show you

PRAYER TO OUR LADY: Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary, that never was
it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help,
or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this
confidence, we turn to you, O Virgins of virgins, our Mother. To you
we come, before you we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word
Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in your mercy hear us
and answer us. Amen.

That is just wrong. The goddess has arrived


PRAYER TO OUR LADY, ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN: Immaculate Virgin, Mother of
Jesus and our Mother, we believe in your triumphant assumption into heaven
where the angels and saints acclaim you as Queen. We join them in praising
you and bless the Lord who raised you above all creatures. With them we
offer you our devotion and love. We are confident that you watch over our
daily efforts and needs, and we take comfort from our faith in the coming
resurrection. We look to you, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. After
this earthly life, show us Jesus, the blest fruit of your womb, O kind, O
loving, O Sweet Virgin Mary. Amen.

I just cannot be positive about that. No way , no how. Paul would not be either...and Christs letters to the churches mention something like this


THE SALVE REGINA (Hail Holy Queen): Hail Holy Queen, Mother of
Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most
gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this
our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O
clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
V- Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God
R- That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


Again..the ROman CATHOLIC goddess


Mary, Queen of the Holy Rosary, pray for us. Mary, Queen of
Peace, pray for us. Mary, Our Loving Mother, pray for us.

Did I mention that they even give Jesus's titles to her.


MEMORARE: Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was
it known that anyone who fled to Your protection, implored Your
help, or sought Your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with
this confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
To You we come; before You we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O
Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in
Your mercy, hear and answer us. Amen.

!!!! She does everything but forgive sins....and stops right at the line on that one!!!

Some of those are in the rosary.

This is the same as 2 Kings 22,23

The glory is not going to God.
You cannot serve 2 masters.
You cannot be positive about that.

Jesus, Paul, Peter and the whole gang wrote negative commands and comments. That part of the message is being ignored

Concerning your question about Martin Luther. Martin Luther and his exodus from Rome is well documented. What is not well documented is his dispute with the Hebrews. Certain historical facts about the Hebrews is not known and talked about outside Jewish circles for reasons especially today of politicial correctness..if you want to call it that ..I call it a default setting to play through unhindered. The Hebrews are not the only ones to use this setting on the dial ..they are just more famous for being allowed to play through unhindered.
How this pertains to Martin Luther and the Hebrews is this. The Hebrews have a doctrine that is called the Talmud. Little is known about this practice outside of the Hebrews themselves. The Talmud is a commentary on the Torah and the Olde Testament which allows by following certain rules to break the rules outlined by God. You can break the rules but you must follow the rules to do this. Christians have this type of Talmud..or commentarys too..its called Matthew Henry , Larkin , Ironsides et al. It is a dual way of conduct...open and concealed. A way of conduct for the insiders and a way to treat outsiders without the outsiders even being aware of what is happening to them. If you like ..it is a type of feudalism...in secret. The hebrews seemed to be going in this direction all along...from the exodus...but it became more formalilzed ..it seems after they came into contact with a version of it in the Captivity in Babylon. It is called Talmud.
Martin Luther ..after learning of this wrote extensively about it and its conduct in daily affairs and disapproved of it strongly. Luther is not the only one but as a prolific writer he is well known in certain circles. Luther warned believers not to have anything to do with the Hebrews because of the existance and practice of this Talmudic Law supplanting the practices of Moses. Which is what the Hebrews were actually doing.
AT some point in his life Luther gave up and declared ..just kill the Jews and take their belongings and it was done in many places. Often in history when outsiders learned of this Talmudic practice it life became very tough on the Hebrews. This is evidenced often in the history of Europe though this history is often suppressed.
I do not agree with this outcome on the part of Luther but I am well aware of the Talmudic practices ...not just among the Hebrews today but also among other non Hebrew groups. Remember..a system for insiders and a different system for outsiders...this is the essence of feudalism..royalty. Mormons are talmudic...Masons are talmudic...so are our Senators and Congressmen. They obviously get free passes to play through unaccountable..when they get caught they get censored...that is about it.. When you read books on Masonry you see this word over and over ..Talmud or Talmudic. So too with Knights of Columbus...Knights of Malta. Opus Dei. Grand Orient. et al. Insiders and outsiders. Roman Catholicism itself contains the seeds of this Talmudism...Roman Catholics and heritics. Understand??
God requires only one standard of conduct.
With this in mind ..look at Islam ..a standard of conduct for believers and another for Infidels.
White Supremists are the same way..Talmudic...though you would get them very irate if you told them this origin of their beliefs and practices.
Nevertheless that is what happened with Martin Luther. In justifying their conduct .the Nazis were to declare .." we are doing nothing more than what the great Martin Luther declared"
What this kind of Talmudism cannot withstand is for the Light to be shone upon it and it be brought out into the Daylight. Knowlege of its existance.

I have spoken on this before among peoples who know exactly of what I am refering and it is often frown and total silence on their part. They will say nothing though it is clear that they know exactly of what I speak.

By the way ...as a footnote to this ..concerning the Hebrews...you must understand that not all Hebrews follow this system of the Talmud. There are Hebrews like the Karaites who do not approve or practice Talmudic teachings. Just as there are Muslims who do not adhere to the system of Radical Islam and highly disapprove of what is going on and coming in Islam.

Hope this helps Saint of God.

Thanks and take care,
Orangetom

In the bible ..this Talmudism often takes the form of the "Traditions of men" supplanting the Word of God. This is spoken of over and over ..especially by Jesus and His apostles in the New Testament though you can see traces of this Talmud rearing its ugly head in the Olde Testament.

God requires only one system of conduct among His People not to be supplanted by the traditions of men.

I have used this example before ..the woman caught in adultery, in the very act. The Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, in the very act , before Jesus and asked him ..." What say you Rabbi??"
The answer of Jesus is famous so I will not quote Him. What is often not
explained by todays Preachers is that they brought only the woman. They did not bring the man. Yet they were caught in the very act. The Pharisees were famous for claiming they kept the Law in all parts...devoutly ..yet they brought only the woman......Oh this awful woman.
The Law of Moses declared they both shall be stoned...meaning two ...the Pharisees practiced a law where only women get stoned the men do not. They had switched doctrines and practices in secret...a dual system. In secret.. In doing this .the Parisees and the Hebrews who followed this system had also switched Gods. This is Talmudism. They had switched Gods and told no one...but Jesus and his apostles knew. Especially Paul.
This is why Jesus is not liked especially among talmud followers. Paul also is not liked for the very same reason.
By following this Talmudic practice...they whore the Word out to the lowest common denominator and attempt to make the children of the bond woman Heir with the Children of the Free woman. The Word declares differently ... The children of the bond woman ...Shall Not be Heir ..with the Children of the Free Woman.
The Lord I know is a Jealous Lord..though shalt have no other Gods before Him.

Whenever I see people on these boards speaking badly about Jesus and especially the Apostle Paul I have warning flags to surface to tell me to look for Talmudism. You will find that the most vocal and seemingly knowlegable are peoples with Hebrew backgrounds and education or seminary training. Many seminarys are teaching concealed Talmudism. Nevertheless it is all the traditions of men supplanting the word of God.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
If I may post your question correctly.
"That's a good point, orangetom...
But since that seems to diverge away from this particular topic, why not start a new thread"

What my question referred to was not your info on RCC & all that...
What my question referred to was the "reversal" of the matriarchy/patriarchy systems & what the effects that they had on society. When phrased that way, you may see that this could breed a whole new thread in itself...Even though the actual "reversal" itself had it's basis in religion.

But as I had stated before, the Bible itself has been altered by those who've held power & authority within the structure of organized religion. This is a true statement that's backed up by historical documentation. The documents that have been brought into the light shows that the changes in the Bible throughout its own history were not done with the intention to expose the truth of Christ & his ministry, but to exert control over the general population. My first delvings into the history of how organized religion "evolved" over time led me here. There are many other references that can lead you into different directions, but something like this can get you started. The main point I'm making here is that organized religion in itself had subverted Christianity. Conspirators & their conspiracies involved "absorbing" some pagan beliefs into Christianity for the purpose of gaining control over the masses, through lies & deceptions.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
The obviously count on the concept that most people dont know much history. They are correct in this assumption. I myself dont know that much history but what they are doing is obviously using the ignorance of the public as a default setting to play through.

Exactly my point.
Ahhh, if only the world-wide single religion was, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins", then how much better off humanity would be...After all, isn't this the style & tenor of the whole of the Ten Commandments describing the same thing?

Originally posted by saint4GodCatholics believe going to confessional as a regular practice is a good habit. If the person confessing is sincere and reforms their ways, why is this a problem?

The problem is that the Priest that you confess to is an RCC "middleman", seeking to place another human being between you & God...Wouldn't you rather be confessing to God directly, instead of talking to a "middleman"?

Originally posted by saint4God
Scripture and our personal relationship with God should be making the difference in our lives, yes?

Apparently, you agree...
But you should also be aware of how much they've actually changed the Scripture itself, as well.

Originally posted by saint4God
If we wanna toss out all nonbiblical doctrine, then fine by me BUT touch that Bible and you're gonna see a not-so-passive side of me.

That's another problem...The Catholics already have "touched" the Bible...Many, many times. The Greeks & Romans are also guilty of this, as well as the modern-day organized structure of religion has too.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Whenever I see people on these boards speaking badly about Jesus and especially the Apostle Paul I have warning flags to surface to tell me to look for Talmudism.

This is exactly the same type of "flag" that I sensed when I heard about how much Jews had denegrated "The Passion"...Remember how much that hit the news after the movie had come out?
Remember, in the news reports, the main gripe that Jews had about the movie is that it made implications on how bad they were when, even as Pontuous Pilate offered to release Jesus, the crowds of Jews demanded Crucifiction.
You should also realize that there are real Jews and then there are false Jews. Being Jewish is not a point of which religion you follow: Being Jewish means your ancestry is of a certain racial stock (Specifically, Semite Jew)...Most people aren't aware of this.
See how much you can learn if you just learn history, instead of relying on someone else to teach history to you? Yes, this is a derogatory view of the modern education system.

[edit on 21-7-2005 by MidnightDStroyer]

You make some intresting points in your last post. I will try to reply before having to shove off to work tonight. Graveyard shift here...Night Creature!!!

you posted:
"What my question referred to was the "reversal" of the matriarchy/patriarchy systems & what the effects that they had on society. When phrased that way, you may see that this could breed a whole new thread in itself...Even though the actual "reversal" itself had it's basis in religion. "

I dont put alot of stock in the Martriarchy sacred Femminine type systems merely because of what I see in the nature of what is around me and the grasp of history of what I know.
Martriarchial systems make for good speaches and rhetoric but poor performance in a culture or economy. Martriarchial systems are basically feudal systems of which we have had a over abundance in history. In certain educational arenas this is known by the slogan .." advancing by degrees in the Wisdom of this World" Another version of it is "The Restoration of the True Brotherhood."
These are the essence of all feudal systems of ages past. These systems in themselves incorporated the "sacred femminine" in many of their practices. Sacred Femminine. the sex principles from ancient occult rituals. Male/Female...hot and cold. up and down ..equalibrium balance..etc etc etc ad nausium. This is nothing but a revival of the ancient fertility cults with a psuedo modern twist.
I hear women and men often speaking of how we need to go back to this system and how great it was...in history past. Rubbish. Total rubbish.
Do you see women of today ...producing and distributing the products necessary to keep a modern technological society going out of a sense of matriachy. Do you see the women of today doing the work and commitments necessary to maintain and progress society as was done in the times of the industrial revolution. Do you see women of today doing the work and commitments necessary to make men comefortable and balanced from the womens career earnings under a martriachial society. No safety net. This is alot of commitment ..when options as done today will get the job done in a occult manner ..as is taken for granted today.
The willingness of a man to take up with a woman or woman with children is a huge step in commitments and makes a man very vulnurable in more ways than is ever taught to them even at a college level. The willingness of men to do this in our type of economic structure and have it taken for granted...a given .by other groups of peoples...in such a dogma means that we are already well on our way to this matriarchial socitey with so few being aware of it.
When I walk into any department or grocery store and see about seven to one product levels aimed at women verses men ..I see clearly that the femmine side of the aisle is not a downtrodden victimized class of people.
Remember Midnight Destroyer...women often have the option of two not one income from which to make decisions on which products to consume. Theirs and their mans incomes. Not usually the men having this decision power by way of women. Hence the awareness that this is not a victimized class of people because they cannot come out in the open with the Matriarchial society. Do not think for one m oment the merchandizers and manufacturers are not aware of this. They have a investment in public ignorance.
Dont worry Midnight Destroyer...most men today are way to dumb to understand of what I speak. To much sports illustrated swimsuit edition polluting thier brains. Most of them will never get it in a lifetime.

Matriachial societies come in alot of different forms but all of them Occult in nature and history. Occult meaning concealed ..hidden...esoteric. this is feudalism. A system for insiders and a system for outsiders...feudalism.
The very system the American Republican form of government was to prevent.
Someone out here is trying to bring it back ..it will be a disaster.
If it was so great in history past it would not have fallen.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I will post later on the versions of the bible and the changes ...must shove off to work..thanks for some good posts>

Orangetom

Um, I might be new here. But sterio-type's are commonly used by everybody.

Its easy to state "RCC's" worship Mary for exp.

But then ignore the True meaning of "veneration".

Please listen while reading.

Veneration does not mean "worship" but more like adoration and reverence. She is adored and revered as "perfect" in character. A Sinless Mother for the sinless Son. She is not however "fully God in Human form". But instead like Eve before the fall. A sinless human.

She, like the Saints are revered and adored. Much like we revere and adore our pastors, Bishops, elders, leaders, etc. Like our "pastor" prays for Us. The Saints pray for us. To the Son.

Simple: RCC believers "talk" to Mary about thier concerns. And she "talks" to God.

On The Saints "forgiving" others. Is a can of worms, I'm not touching.

Lets say 25% of Christianity is borrowed from other religions. And 75% is original.

What does this prove? That Christianity is wrong since it Borrows ideas from others?

Truly, If revelation comes from outside Isreal. Does Isreal Fall?

No It Borrows some ideas, modifies others, and keeps some of its beliefs as unalterable truths. It Grows, Much like Most Religions. So the Jew might be different then one 2,000 years ago. But he is still a Jew.

So what, If Christianity Borrowed from Greek or Persian cultural Beliefs. Jews of the Diaspora have been in those countries for at least 500 years. They certainly "Did Not Live In a Bubble".

Also Most "pagan mythology" people Fail to understand the complexities of a General "Christian" definition.

A Unitarian believes in No God. Yet he is labeled a Christian. The Same with Mormons, Christian Science, Gnostics, etc.

(please Note, As a christian. My focus is on being a instrument to "saving the lost". Not "legislating" the lost. If you say "No". I go on. I don't slap you across the head with a Bible or run to the nearest government building. And "force" you to live the ten commandments.

Others like me must decide on thier own. But when you tell me. "Take the Christmas tree down" In my own yard. Then it becomes personal. The same way with my kids taking a bible to school or praying privatly before a meal in school.

Don't Force Christianity, or atheism on me. Let me live my own private life. And you, yours.)

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I dont put alot of stock in the Martriarchy sacred Femminine type systems merely because of what I see in the nature of what is around me and the grasp of history of what I know.

My whole point exactly...This particular topic could breed a whole new thread instead of co-opting this thread away from it's original discussion. But in a nutshell, my opinion is:
History shows that religion started as a matriarchy...Organized religion turned it into a patriarchy. Neither system really seems to work. In this modern age, when knowledge & understanding between the sexes has become more widespread (mostly through the use of newer technologies to spread information), I think we should equalize both sides & see how men & women can work as a team, instead of working in contention.
Now I would like to stop co-opting this thread, but should another thread begin by discussing the "historical effects of sexism on society and/or religion", you can bet your sweet bippy I'll post there too.

Originally posted by msnevil
She, like the Saints are revered and adored. Much like we revere and adore our pastors, Bishops, elders, leaders, etc. Like our "pastor" prays for Us. The Saints pray for us. To the Son.

One major point that you seem to be missing...One of the problems with organized religion is that it places "middlemen" between you & God...Co-opting your Faith to have you seek them out before you seek out God & establish your relationship with Him. The Pastors, Bishops, Preists, Saints...All of them have been put between you & God. Do you need them to express yourself to God directly in your prayers? In a word, no. I'm not saying that the Saints & other Holy people don't deserve any veneration at all...Simply that they're not really needed for you to establish your own relationship with God.

Originally posted by msnevil
(please Note, As a christian. My focus is on being a instrument to "saving the lost". Not "legislating" the lost.

Then as a Christian, you should also realize that you can't save the lost...Only that Christ gave His life to redeem all of humanity in the eyes of God can save anyone, no matter what their beliefs were while they lived. A very good source I found that explains that particular tenant of Christianity is here.
The main point that some (including myself) have been making in this thread is that organized religion has subverted the true meaning of Christianity & altered Scripture, for the purpose of gaining control over people. Adopting & altering the "pagan" religions in their path was merely one tool they've used to do it.

Originally posted by msnevil
But when you tell me. "Take the Christmas tree down" In my own yard. Then it becomes personal.

This, in itself, is one example of a "pagan" concept that was absorbed into Christianity. The Christmas Tree, the Yuletide Fireplace, the tradition of Mistletoe, even the date that Christmas is celebrated on...All taken from the Keltoi (Celtic) "pagan" religion. Oh, yes...even the celebration of "All Hallow's Eve" is Celtic in origin.


[edit on 22-7-2005 by MidnightDStroyer]

I'm learning a lot. By all means continue.

orangtom, great information. I guess I didn't know as much about Martin Luther as I thought. A whole lot for me to think on and consider.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.



[edit on 22-7-2005 by saint4God]

Midnght destroyer


"My whole point exactly...This particular topic could breed a whole new thread instead of co-opting this thread away from it's original discussion. But in a nutshell, my opinion is:
History shows that religion started as a matriarchy...Organized religion turned it into a patriarchy. Neither system really seems to work. In this modern age, when knowledge & understanding between the sexes has become more widespread (mostly through the use of newer technologies to spread information), I think we should equalize both sides & see how men & women can work as a team, instead of working in contention.
Now I would like to stop co-opting this thread, but should another thread begin by discussing the "historical effects of sexism on society and/or religion", you can bet your sweet bippy I'll post there too."

I disagree here in your point. While the bulk of the volume of religons in this world are of the matriarchial leanings the beginings were of Partriarchial origin. This one was a minority and still is. It is to be Patriarchial and Authoritarian. The Martriarical religions always surrounded this little enclave of Patriarchial Religon and hated them. They were always in conflict with the Partriarchial Religion when the Matriarical religions were not fighting and killing each other. The Matriarical religions are still working to return to this system today. These two systems are and always will be in conflict. All education does today is to widen the schizm further by educated self justification. The Matriarical system is what is taught in most colleges and universitys today under the guise of high enlightment. Advancing by degrees in the wisdom of this world.. the three ancient phases of education/enlightment. Bachelors , Masters and Phd.
Many times in history the Matriarical systems have infiltrated and hijacked the Christian religion. The most notiable is still with us ...The RCC. There are others.
By the way ..these Matriarical forms of religion are still fighting and killing each other off today. They are just much better at hiding what they are doing.



Concerning this statement.
"This, in itself, is one example of a "pagan" concept that was absorbed into Christianity. The Christmas Tree, the Yuletide Fireplace, the tradition of Mistletoe, even the date that Christmas is celebrated on...All taken from the Keltoi (Celtic) "pagan" religion. Oh, yes...even the celebration of "All Hallow's Eve" is Celtic in origin."

I do not celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween or birthdays. I will not put up a tree and decorate it. Once I learned what this tradition of men was and its origins ..I determined to give it up and get off this sickening treadmill. From giving up Christmas I then began to look up other holidays and learned more. All days belong to my Lord. Not one above another. One day above another is paganism. Also there is no example Olde or New Testaments of a instruction to celebrate a birthday. There is also a stark abscence of any instruction to declare/define publically or privately who one is by sexuality. Ironically educated peoples and teachers seem wont to miss this concept totally...preachers too as many of them are educated in the "wisdom schools."

Saint for God ..I am glad to have been of some assistance in the matter of Martin Luther. Thanks for your blessing and I return it to you with further thanksgiving in His name.

Orangetom

OrangeTom, as far as when you spoke about matriarchal or patriarchal religions being mostly matriarchial...I was referring entirely of the organized part of the religion when I mentioned that they're patriarchal: From the Pope on down, Catholicism & the branches of Christian organization, the positions of authority are held nearly entirely by men. Even Islam, which has its origins from Abraham's travels, is a male-dominated organization. However, there have been a few exceptions (such as when the public successfully petitioned the Vatican to grant Sainthood to Mother Teresa) & I'm not blind to that.

Also, I never implied that you celebrate Christmas, OrangeTom...I was merely pointing out that info to msnevil's post just after mine...
As far as it goes between Christmas & me, I merely realize that Jesus had to have some day as His birthday. December 25th is as good of day as any other to let Jesus know I think of Him, by simply saying, "Happy Birthday" out loud to Him. I'm willing to bet He already knows that I'm not aware of which day would be the right day, since I've found nothing in Scripture that indicates what day He was really born...But the fact that I even pick a day, any day, & still make a point of thinking about Him specifically is a sign & symbol that I know what He's done & sacrificed for me & that I appreciate His love & concern for all of us.

But, I've gotten sidetracked from the main topic of this thread again, so it's time for me to shut up for now.