US Discipline / Morale in Iraq?

Fragging, that 'sport' much-beloved by armies just prior to their complete collapse, is back in fashion.

2 officers fragged by an NCO in Iraq

news.bbc.co.uk...

Does this mean the US Army in Iraq is close to collapse? The start of a trend?

Seriously I think this is a very worrying sign that all's not well in your army in Iraq

if sombody commits murder against their own unit does not mean morale goes down. u need to look more in detail before u say one person in a unit kills his own means morale is down.

No fair point. That's why I asked the question.

It HAS been the first sign of impending collapse before (Vietnam) and know your forces are suffering some disillusionment so wondered if it was a sign of troubles ahead or a one-off.

Originally posted by CTID56092
No fair point. That's why I asked the question.

It HAS been the first sign of impending collapse before (Vietnam) and know your forces are suffering some disillusionment so wondered if it was a sign of troubles ahead or a one-off.

, soldiers kill other members long even before we lost Vietnam. look at other murders from the past wars that we didnt lose.

135K troops in Iraq one officer kill 2 other soldiers and the US army is going to collapse and everything is lost? That's like having a car and you get a scratch on it, does it mean the entire car is going to break down and stop working?

Those soldiers in Iraq know what they are fighting for, moral is not as bad as you think. The soldiers in Iraq get to see and hear everything they don't only hear news clips about only casualties and nothing else like we do on TV.

Wouldn't know - killing our own officers isn't SOP for the UK Army.

Agree it's an isolated incident but so was the first fragging in 'Nam! Actually it's one soldier who killed two officers - thought you'd read it!?

My prayers go out to the deceased officers and their families. I know that they have been caused much pain.

Trying to look at the crime logically, I see two possibilities for this:

1. The person who dropped the frag into his commander's room had a personal reason to do so, such as a desire to prevent some adverse action that was pending or threatened, an individual hatred for the man, etc.

2. The person who dropped the frag did so out of a belief that the unit would be in better shape without the commander, his fellow soldiers would be safer, or that the mission would not be accomplished under the commander's leadership.

If it's the first, then it doesn't signal much regarding morale or the state of the military. Personal disputes are common, and the soldier might have just chosen to use a readily-accessible grenade rather than some other method. If it's the second, which I believe to be more likely, it's more troubling.

I understand the situation (although I would not have taken this action and do not believe it was appropriate). I spent a year in Iraq with an absolutely inept battalion commander. If she had been KIA, the unit would have certainly fared better than it did. More effective in performing its mission, and probably less success by the enemy in performing their mission. It was a widely-held belief in our unit that both she and the sergeant major needed to be relieved. Both were eventually relieved after the redeployment home. There would not have been a single tear in the battalion had either been killed in Iraq by a stray mortar round. When soldiers would rejoice at the thought of their commander being taken out, there is A Big Problem.

Please note that this has nothing to do with her being female, and everything with her being just plain stupid and inexperienced. For some examples, one day during the massive push north in April 2003, she blamed the congested main supply routes on "Easter Traffic". She yelled at her driver when her vehicle overheated and declared the failure to be related to him not checking the water level in the batteries. She misidentified the patch of the 1st Armored Division as that of the 1st Cavalry Division. The list is endless.

Enough about her. My point is, I suspect the soldier thought that he needed to kill the commander to prevent what he saw as poor leadership. During peacetime, poor leadership is tolerated. During war, it gets people killed and the stakes multiply. I'm not saying the deceased officers were guilty of poor leadership. I am saying that the soldier who dropped the frag believed this to be true and chose murder as the solution. This is a signal of an Army that is about to run out of breath.

Isolated incident. One fragging in two years is hardly a developing problem.

The Kuwait fragging was also isolated, and ignorance driven.

I bet $5 that due to his troubles at home, the Sergeant asked for a hardship leave. Since his father could easily care for his child, he was refused leave time. He then took out his frustration on his command.

Pure speculation on my part, of course.

Fair points both.

Killing someone 'cos they turned down your leave! Who'd be an officer?

Appreciate it's just one incident but think it's a fair question given the reported overstretch for both our armies and signs of morale issues for you guys.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
135K troops in Iraq one officer kill 2 other soldiers and the US army is going to collapse and everything is lost? That's like having a car and you get a scratch on it, does it mean the entire car is going to break down and stop working?

I see your analogy, but try this one on for size: It's more like a piston knock rather than a paint scratch. The car could run another 100K mi or could break down tomorrow and leave you standing on the freeway.

Please tell me why our forces are in Iraq. Personally I don't feel any of those people [the Iraques] are worth even a single casualty of our precious young people in the milatary.

[edit on 17-6-2005 by whaaa]

I see your analogy, but try this one on for size: It's more like a piston knock rather than a paint scratch. The car could run another 100K mi or could break down tomorrow and leave you standing on the freeway.

We could argue this all day but like someone said one soldier on soldier killing in Iraq in 2+ years is hardly evidence that all is lost.

Please tell me why our forces are in Iraq. Personally I don't feel any of those people [the Iraques] are worth even a single casualty of our precious young people in the milatary.

That's you opinion but I think the soldiers in Iraq will disagree with you, especial the ones that had the job of clearing out mass graves or removing torture devices from he ceiling.