If lucifer is the morning star, and jesus claims to be as well, who is who?

There has been a lot of chit-chat on the secret soceity board, about Albert Pike, and the luciferian conspiracy, dealing with masons. Bsically therie is one passage in pike's book that intimates toward the importance of Lucifer. Lucifer is the literal traslation of the planet venus, Lucifer means bringer of light, Or the morning star. Here is that passage...

"Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!"

Pike also elaborates much into the bringer of light, being symbolic of the morning star. The ancients worshipped the symbolic menaing of veunus. the sacred feminine, and noted its duality ans the morning star and evening star. The truth is that they had no idea that the M.S. and the E.S wer in fact the same planet. So half of the time it represented light and the other half dark, male and female, god and lucifer.

In the new religion of the ages, christianity, there is duality between god and lucifer. They represent complete oppisites, God-creator of everything and giver of knowledeg, and protector of the innocent, and all that other jazz. Lucifer-and angel that fell from the ranks of heaven, struck down to hell by god. These tow are polar oppisite, and when they meet one always triumphs over the other.

In the bible in Rev 22:16, jesus says...

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

What pike brings across in his text, seems more like a Gnostic view of religion. That god is witin us, and everything around us, and not in some sill place called heaven. It focuses toward a more easter, and ancient view of spirituality, something that was lost to the idea of an all powerful God. He talks about god-given senses like, instinct, and spiritual communication, and a knowledge of nature.

It seems almost like the garden of eden, before the apple was bitten. Before that, man and woman, were in utter harmony but then after eating the apple, god smote them to earth, whaer pain, fear, hunger, and addiction all rule. And false prophets tempt tehm further from god.

The truth is that Pike says that god and satan are within us and everything around us. It is our CHIOCES that determine wether we are acting as god would, or as lucifer would. It is like the angel/devil on the shoulder thing. Pike argues that god , can be seen, if you know how to look for him. He is in nature, which is the only symbolic text of god. He goes on to say that god is embodied by "the balance." The balance is the equilibriium that keeps every good system in order, it is in the orbits of planets, the life cycle, and the ecosystems of our earth. Pike argues that we are killing god with ideas like the church and government, and buisness.

If god created all of us in his image, he should look like everything we see around us combined. And doesn't it seem ridiculous, that a being such as god, could even have a physical image, doesn't it make sense that he may exist in a realm, completely out of our perception? What if god is standing right next to all of us right now, we just can't see him? This is the nature of pikes text and philosophy.

Is Jesus saying in revelations, that the church (the symbolic "I") was lucifer (the morning star) and that those involved in the church were not doing the work of god, but rather the work of the devil? Along with the gospels of St. thomas, this seems to be pretty damning evidence against the church. I would like to hear what everyone thinks...

Let us ask ourselves...

Do we need the church to be good people, or is that something that parents could teach to thier children?

Is the church essential to the functioning of the world, or does it just create more problems than it solves?

Shouldn't every spiritual journey be unique, is the church limiting people's individual spiritual views?

Is what the bible teaches about homosexuality, pre-mariatal relations, and alchaholism right?

the main question I want answered is, what is up with that quote from revelations...Is jesus saying that he represents lucifer? Does lucifer, or god for that matter, exist at all?

And

Is religion used by the vatican, and other powerful organization as a tool to do the work of lucifer himself? To create and perpetuate holy war, to teach people to judge, and feel more important than those who have yet to be "saved?"



[edit on 4-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Lucifer:

brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) to denote his glory.

-Easton's Bible Dictionary



[edit on 4-6-2005 by ProphetOfYahweh]

King James Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning.

KJV Rev. 22:16 I Jesus........ the bright and morning star.

These are 2 different names, one for satan and one for Jesus


New International version Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, o morning star, son of the dawn

In the NIV satan is given a name that belongs to Jesus. That is why, to seriously study and know the truth of the Bible you must ground yourself in the KJV so that you are not led astray.

[edit on 4-6-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 4-6-2005 by dbrandt]

you can even more ground yourself with the Young's version of the bible which is a closer translation to the original words written...

Originally posted by humbled_one
you can even more ground yourself with the Young's version of the bible which is a closer translation to the original words written...

Thanks, I have been looking for a translation like this. I'll check it out.

O.P. by dbrandt
In the NIV satan is given a name that belongs to Jesus. That is why, to seriously study and know the truth of the Bible you must ground yourself in the KJV so that you are not led astray.

Thanks, I didn't realize that the translations, and versions of the bible were that different.

EOH, Ill give it a try

As you know i have been working on the concept of lucifer and his cover control of mankind. I know we have dissagreed on this subject, but I dont think we are really that far apart. Lucifer may in fact translate to "Venus", but the rest of the discription, to me, the bringer of light etc, describes what we call white light orbs. It is possible that early man relayed to us what they saw, a star as bright as venus, or reminded them of venus, to describe what this entity looked like. I dont think white light orbs was in thier vocabulary, or for that matter "foo fighters".

Albert Pikes writtings clearly show a level of knowledge about this entity that is far above the avarage persons reality. His writtings go far beyond just a physical sighting and into actual communication with it. I wouldnt doubt that Pike isnt the first to be "Hoodwinked" by lucifer, or what ever this entity is. Presently in LA there is a fellow who claims to be in contact with a UFO, prophet Yeweh . The interesting part is that this ufo clearly looks like a white light orb, or should I say, Venus?

I now have very little doubt that this entity by the name lucifer, Venus, foo fighters, white lights orbs, is absolutly real. And if it is real now, then it must of been real in the past, and most likley in the deep past.

The scriptures I have read about this enitity clerarly show that that he has fallen from grace and for some reason has very little respect for humanity. I would have to dig up all the information about this relationship, its been awile since I read the material but it does seem to me that lucifer is no friend to mankind.

Is it possible that Lucifer has tricked mankind into worshiping him? Absolutly! Who can tell with certanty that the halo around the head of holy figures is not a covert representation of lucifer himself? It would seem to be a logical assumption. Look at all the orbs represented in religious art threw the ages.

EOH, you state that Pike felt that God and Satan is within mankind, to this I would agree, but in another form. God the spirit is within anyone who asks for his presents. And, the reverse is also true with Satan. Both powers are present within us, if invited. Its our choice, if we are not brought up in ignorance. For under the religious system we presently find ourselve no one has a true choice, and that is what Lucifer wants, complete control.

Would we be better off with out religion? If its the present religious system, yes. If it was one where the truth was taught and "CARE" for others was stressed, maybe not. I have little doubt that Christ was the invention of Lucifer. Anyone remember what lead the 3 wise men to the birth of christ? A star? Or lucifer himself! In christ there is a double standard. One side of his story was to care about others. This is good. But when christ taught to turn thy cheek, this is bad. He didnt state who to turn the cheek to and who not to. If satan was eating one side of your face, family, should you also give him the other? Dont say thats rediculious. Satan was eating your children in the form of Cathoilc preists. And he is also eating you alive at the bohemian grove in the form of a elite, powerful cult. Satan also is eating you alive in the form of the bonesmen who rape, pillage, cause wars. Did christs words protect us from this evil? So, in a sence it was lucifer who covertly allowes this to happen by the conditioning we recieve threw religion.

Main question, does lucifer exsist? It seems the evidence, and circumstancial seem to point to his reality.

ASE, I think that you are very close, and I think that our views of the church are on the same page.

Lucifer is not one person...he is everyone whose actions are evil, and malicious. Lucifer has teh power to take over a person's bod, because fo the decisions they make. He manifests himself through the human meduim. As does god...in chrity, goodwill and kindness. It is through us that god and satan work, becuse they are not of our world. The exist in an entirely differnt realm, and the only way thaey can exert their power is through humans. They do not contact us or, make thier presence known, but it is that part of us that determines right and wrong, that brings forth God and satan.

[edit on 4-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

EOH ,yes we can both see the controlling effect of religion, regardless of the denomonation. But Lucifer and satan are another story.

I can see where Lucifer can "Enter" ones body and direct actions, but I think it must first be solicited. Same is true for satanists which is not the same as lucifer. If anything I think that Satan (concept) is a Luciferian. But satan being a non spirited entity would remove all choice. Could Lucifer have "Entered" the serpent known as Satan?
Hmmmm, something to think about.

I have noticed that the two mentalities, that of luciferians and satanist are quite different. Luciferians tend to blackmale and extort to gain control , and the satanist mentality would be to create fear by torture and murder . The two groups generally are at odds, but will work together when the outcome is in both of thier interests

one thing they both have in common is they are exellent salesmen. They are expert at taking Poison and sugar coating it and selling it to you, at a profit. Their profit, our loss. And as long as they continue to use religion as a mind control tool, we shall never see the truth.

I must also disagree that we are never contacted. I could give a list of people who have been, Nicole Tesla, Adolph Hitler, Edgar Cayce, Nastrodamis, and probably a thousand more. For the better or worse it appears that humanity has been put right in the middle of a galactic chess game. I know personally covert intervention is a reality.

you can go to www.biblegateway.com...
and there you can look up passages in all the different translations of the Bible and see how words are different or are not different...

I fail to understand how one translation can be better then another when the KJV was done a few hundred years ago and is ratehr dated in its translation.

If you really want to get into the bible and start picking it apart you should learn anceint herbrew, greek and forgot about using any translations.

drbrandt
The prophet Isaiah in chapter 14 is talking about the Babylonian king' boastful pride which falls, and barrows from a popular legend connected with the morning star. the referance "Morning star, son of the dawn" originally applied specifically to that kings pride... not to Satan. So actually the NIV version is better, not the KJV since some could confused it with the lucifer/satan allegory

"Lucifer" is really only refered to the Jedeo-christian Satan in Christian Mythology (about as good as movie script) and has become an ALLEGORY to Satan. only in some interpitations of Revelations 12:5, or John Milton's Paradise loss. Which neither has very little bearing on actaul scripture.

So in the end, when people start using Lucifer, it is fancy way of using allegory in a poetical rhetorical way.

Originally posted by Jehosephat

So in the end, when people start using Lucifer, it is fancy way of using allegory in a poetical rhetorical way.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Thanks for the site humbled, I checked out all my faorite passages (there aren't too many considering I really don't allign myself with that faith anymore) and all of them were just a little different.

I think I might tke Jehosepaht's advice, and just learn hebrew, aramaic, and greek. That's the only way to get the true meaning.

If lucifer is the morning star, and jesus claims to be as well, who is who?

both are within us all.

suggestion.

remember how it use to be written in the stars?

revisit the house of the zodiac that seems to be no one's sign anymore.

ophiuchus

lucifer may very well be what the light is for.

ophiuchus is both the snake presenter and the snake restrainer.

perhaps it is lucifer who at both beginning and end knows fear and hate and death so that the eternal truth may not ever know it.

perhaps it is lucifer who created these things that now dwell within all of us until lucifer can surface, surface in one with jesus simultaniously and choose whether or not to serve us as we serve him without fear and without hate.

perhaps our purpose is to save the one who damned us all.

be merciful and forgiving.

ophiuchus

of i u chus

of eye you choose.

ophiuchus is the 13th warrior.
ophiuchus is the reason 1 chair of the round table is empty.
ophiuchus is both.

reversed:
such you i foe

good thing we have free will to choose the mirror image of humanity when the day comes?

think there will be enough love in the world to save us?

which way are the scales this day?

questonterra

 

 

You seem to have great fixation on 'lucifer' questonterra..Your name has some resonance for me. Mine being "vetting the human' or 'veteranhumanbeing'. Yours being a 'quest upon terraferma(earthclay), or question the terraform Itself. Why have you commandiered RFT and succeeded without anyones notice (you realise you are displacing OTHER VERY Important Significant Threads) with your own observations of MORE VERY Very MORE Important significant threads needing a reboot, it will be noticed at some point (and when captured you will go to a virtual county lockup/comedy club as the head liner, dangerously funny malfiesence charged).

reply to post by dbrandt


KJV and NIV are HORRIBLE translations. not good reference points buddy. Learn ancient hebrew and ancient greek. Even then, a good portion of ancient hebrew cannot even be translated into english, and ancient greek to english is still muddy at best.

reply to post by Eyeofhorus

what is up with that quote from revelations...Is jesus saying that he represents lucifer? Does Lucifer, or god for that matter, exist at all?

"Lucifer" comes from Latin, so is a translation made in the Middle Ages, and is not a proper name written directly by the writer of Isaiah who was giving a prophecy about the king of Babylon.

the terminology used in Isaiah probably came from a myth current at that time, which was in turn based on the gradual shift of the pole star.
The idea was that a star represented a character who aspired to take his seat among the elders on the "sides of the north" but was cast down to the lowest star.

Jesus in Revelation, on the other hand referred to the aspect of the star preceding the rising of the sun and heralded the day.