Christian OT Versus NT

Ok, you hear all the time the OT is null and void due to Jesus in the NT. So all the "nutty" rules like kill anyone who works on the sabbath and the like are not to be followed. Well, according to Jesus you are suppose to follow the OT.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)


That and more here.... www.evilbible.com...

The law is still valid, but you miss the entire point. When they wanted to kill the adultress, Jesus agreed that that's what the law said, be he said he who is without sin must cast first the stone:

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 8:1-11

The point is we are all sinners and it is only through Christ that we can be saved and forgiven for our breaking of the law. From what I see all your Bible quotes of Jesus are grossly taken out of context and with distorted meaning, but of course that not unexpected coming from you JTL. :shk:

Here are the complete Mark and Matthew quotes:

9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[a] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[c] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Mark 7:9-13

4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

Matthew 15:4-9

It's clear that Jesus is not saying anyone should die, he's criticizing the hypocritical actions and selective adherence to the law by the Jews, especially the Pharisees.


[edit on 5/12/2005 by djohnsto77]

And you are being just as hypocritical today! You have the people who take the "Gays are Evil" quote, but in the same chpater it tells you to stone kids to death for acting up! So, again, nitpicking. Hypocrits.....

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The law is still valid, but you miss the entire point. When they wanted to kill the adultress, Jesus agreed that that's what the law said, be he said he who is without sin must cast first the stone

I always wondered about that. So what is a christian supposed to do? The law says (and Christ agrees) that the woman must be stoned for her crime. However, he then said that he who is without sin must cast the 1st stone. Since no one is without sin, wouldn't that void the law? Also, considering that Jesus was without sin (and that he absolutely agreed with the law), why didn't he cast the 1st stone?

Originally posted by babloyi
Since no one is without sin, wouldn't that void the law? Also, considering that Jesus was without sin (and that he absolutely agreed with the law), why didn't he cast the 1st stone?

Jesus' purpose on this Earth was to understand what it is to be tempted by sin and through his sacrifice, allow people to forgiven for sin. Note that he said "go and sin no more", not "ok, keep sinning you'll still be fine," so he doesn't exactly nullify the law. I know it's a fine point and I'm not a theologian, perhaps someone else will be able to explain it better.

The reason why the Old Testament laws no longer applies to us New Testament Christians is the same reason why the Sabbath Law, the dietary laws, and the other Old Testament regulations no longer apply to us. They were part of the body of laws God gave his Old Testament nation of Israel.

Colossians 2:16,17

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Romans 10:4

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

And the whole letter Paul wrote to the Galatians explains this further that we do not recieve salvation by observing laws, but by our faith in the one who saves us. The OT laws are not a part of God's moral law which applies to all people of all time.

Yes we should try to follow them, but because of original sin, no matter how hard we try we will never achive the perfection God demanded of us to attain salvation. Unless we lay our sins on the cross with with Jesus Christ our savior to help us, we will never achive salvation.

Verily, I say for every standard, let there also be a double-standard. For every rule, there shall be an exception.

Kill disobedient children? We'd be extinct. The inferrence is obviously wrong.

Every human being does evil. Every human being does good. We're all screwed and exhalted simultaneously. Take that book, read it, put it down, live your life.

Originally posted by babloyi
I always wondered about that. So what is a christian supposed to do? The law says (and Christ agrees) that the woman must be stoned for her crime. However, he then said that he who is without sin must cast the 1st stone. Since no one is without sin, wouldn't that void the law? Also, considering that Jesus was without sin (and that he absolutely agreed with the law), why didn't he cast the 1st stone?

The NT gives many lessons on God's perfect love. One such lesson (Mat 5:43-48) ends with the words "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." It is this perfect love which basis of all the laws and prophecy. (Mat 22:36-40)

Think of it as a clarification of the law.

The law:

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

The Clarification:

By whom? One without sin.
When? Not now.


Through this clarification, I don't believe "Shall surely be put to death" refers to the bodily death, but rather speaks of a spiritual death-- the second death described in Revelations.

Uh, bible says one thing, YOUR lord and savoir says another.

Jesus says Follow The OT! So all you people not raping, killing, and slaughtering the jews are going to hell for not following the OT.

Raphael, ok, I suppose that is logical. But then what about the other laws of the OT?

Jehosephat, how does the Romans 10:4 match with all the verses James posted at the beginning? Jesus himself said that he had not come to put an end to the laws, they all must be observed.

[edit on 13-5-2005 by babloyi]

You guys are missing a huge piece of the puzzle here. The old law is not invalidated, its not thrown out, it simply becomes circumvented or fulfilled completely. The old law required burnt offerings and blood sacrifices of sacrificial clean animals at certain times of the year in very specific places, to god for the attonment of the old testiment peoples sins.

In the old testiment only the Hebrews were the choosen and only they had a pathway to god. In the new testiment Christ is sent by god to Die on the cross as the ultimate blood sacrifice that his perfectection and lack of sin should be the offereing for all man kind from that day forth. This is not something that is freely given however, the bible does teach that only those who have faith and believe in the son of god shall be saved by this sacrifice.

When christ talks about letting the first person who is without sin to cast the first stone he is reitterating that it is gods and only gods right to judge anyone. There are several teachings of jesus that say to judge yourself before you judge others. The point was no one in that crowd was perfect only jesus and he himself didnt cast a stone, he left her for gods Judgment not his. It wasnt the time of christs judgment, he wasnt here for that he was here for the sole purpose of preaching the good news and to die on the cross for all man kind. In that act provide a means to still fulfill the law......to still allow God the wrath of his justice......and still provide a means for all those who have fallen short a means to enter the kingdom of god through his sacrifice.

Ok, who knows better? SOmeone "interpreting" the bible, or Your LORD and SAVOIR!?! Hmmm, Jesus says follow OT, you interpret to say don't follow it. Wonder who knows better, god or man.

Why are you trying to interpet something you don't follow James the Lesser? What does it matter to you? It is obvious you are nitpicking at adiaphera and are failing to see the larger picture.

Jews used to bring in lamb, cattle in as offerings for attonment for thier sins, and would bring them into the temple to be sacrificed on the alter by the priest. The rules were rather specific in how the livestock could not have a blemish and how it was suppose to be done

Christians don't offer livestock and sacrifice it on the alter in the temple anymore because Christ was the sacrifice to END ALL SACRIFICES. Thus were SHOULD obey the OT laws, but it is no longer a requirment. if we were to offer sacrifices we would be saying that Christs death ment nothing and we still need to do it, or "just to make sure" you ignore the fact that doctirne teaches faith righteousnous instead of work righteousness. I highly doubt almost every single christian got it wrong

I quoted Romans 10:4 becasue you need to understand there is an end to the law (old testement) and that end came because of Jesus Christs death.

THere are some BASIC concepts almost every non-christian is misssing and are flailing around trying to interpent and understand with out any foundation at all. Most of you probly dont understnad when Jesus talks about the Law, he is meaning the old testement. and often dont even have a clue what significance the passover supper was except for a good subject for Leonadro Da Vinci to paint. If you look at the elements of a passover supper you can EASILY see that they all point to the the final sacrifice of Jesus Christ.. that is what it was designed to do.

I could fill books with this subject but it doesn't matter since what ever someone posts that is contray to your opinion you either ignore or attack