Religion has only ever been a means to control the masses. Nothing else. It therefore playes a major

Toltec... thank for your information. However, as I've stated, I choose not to comment on the merits of belief systems. The material you presented appears, in my mind, to consist more of the metaphysical than physics... as such, I will leave at that and thank you for sharing this very interesting piece. I apologize for mistyping your name.

"Truth"... again I suggest that a blind man cannot contemplate his own reflection... and, history has shown us that intolerance, in any form, is the seed of evil deeds.

RDO.....

Again your response is appreciated, in relation to Mayan sound Technology I have visited Mexico and can (beyond and shadow of doubt), confirm the claims made in relation to the information I have presented (as correct). With regard to soul substance I do have todate an event (in relation to personal experiences) which does confirm the experiment offered as correct as well.

What is incredible about the latter is that one day. It may be possible to observe the life force leaving the body at the time of death. As a bed designed for this very purpose could be created, which would allow what is a gram or so in weight to be observed (leaving the body).

What you claim RDO to be Metaphysical can be in very plain English be identified as different. Presented in this thread is nothing (by me) which cannot be repeated (experimentally that is) and verified as a fact of life.

Ah. Okay. That's what I thought. You "take the Bible literally" but then don't follow all the laws in it. I've seen folks like that (who pick and choose what they'll follow literally and interpret the stuff they don't like as "symbolc") referred to as "Cafeteria Christians" by a lot of Christians who study the Bible.

There are people (both Christian and Jew) who follow all the laws of the Bible, including periods of cleanliness, sacrifices, dietary laws set forth by Jehovah and so on. Most are in Israel.

I think the amusing thing is how often I've heard the "Cafeteria Christians" scold the Strict Interpretation Followers for being "unChristian."

So... would Jehovah accept someone who worshipped Jesus who also kept slaves, married 12 year old girls (someone on a Christian board wrote that her great-grandmother was married at age 12), didn't wear mixed blend fibers, sacrificed animals and burnt them on the altars (which Jehovah in the OT says pleases him and he likes the odor), and so forth?

Would your Jehovah actually accept someone who followed ALL the laws in the Bible? Would that make them less of a sinner than the Cafeteria Christian?

Toltec... you must learn to establish a demarkation between mystical beliefs and the pursuit of science. While there certainly may be occurrences where the two shall meet, such convergence is to be observed, not theorized.

As to the acoustics of ancient cultures, much has indeed been discovered. However, these are aspects of science, and have no mystical attributes.



Byrd:

I think it is obvious this person "Truth" is not, in reality, the strict theologist he would have you believe. There are far too many contradictions in his diatribes. This person is either playing games with those who argue, or purposefully playing the role of extremist Christian in an effort to undermine the perception of Christians. There is no other explanation.


And thus, more data is aquired on the human condition.


RDO

How faninating RDO have you the capacity to know the difference.

As I have explained, I have observed the differecne. And in relation to this observation have I requested that others (individuals observe the same in kind (sufice to say there conclusion is the same). In relation to sound technology I will remind you, that as per ancient text "God sang, Let there be light" (the most ancient of all Genisis presentations).

The essence of what is often termed the Majical word. Derives its presidence from the manipulation of sound, upon anything
which is upon its path (in relation to Bells theorem molecules are reactants to one speaking)

Under the correct circumstances, the correct disertation (sounds) can make what is often considered impossible, possible (under the right conditions) the creation of a universe.


RDO you know very little about the nature of Mystical atributes (this is apparent). An event in which a sound is promulgated does have an effect upon all that is created (every atom in the path of the sound gerenated by the observer is affected). Under the correct conditions the correct sounds can move mountains.

For the record I do agree with your conclusions in relation to "truth"





[Edited on 15-9-2002 by Toltec]

Whatever you guys say.

Im just going to let you argue back and forth about how
god and religion is fake.

Your hearts and souls hhave been hardened and i should of realized
this before.

I know jesus exist from my personala life.

you can never understand this.


You (will) be given miracles of jesus in these coming times.


All i see on this site is *assumption* and judgement.


I think ill stick to praying instead of trying to explain the un explainable to
some of you.


daniel, i play the role of no one other than a man
who has seen personal miracles and i will profess what i know to be true.



I will never convince you people that jesus was god and created a church.


You will be given more chances to embrace this truth though.


Go back to your talk and attack on god and religion. i wil
not jump in no more.


peace.

Originally posted by Truth
1. Will
2. You
3. Ever
4. See
God teaches, i mean "jehovah" teaches in his bible.

And when will *you* see how much the teacher's textbook has been altered & by some of his highest-placed leading "students"?

Originally posted by Truth
How can violence exist if all ""christians"" filled the world obeying this????

Even you can't deny that they *don't*.

Originally posted by Truth
Lusst of the flesh. think what you will but you cant see this???

Again, I only point out the *difference* between what God has *said* this means from what *religion* has said it means. With each major change in "apparent moral practices" among the general public, the *religious heirarchy* are the ones who keep changing the definitions of those sins, right down to the scriptural level. The "true Catholics" believe that contraception itself is a sin, when the *real* sin would be to overcrowd the world & increase the number of the hungry people when there's no longer enough food to go around; The true sin of misinterpreting, editing & altering God's *original Word* is the *root-cause* of the vast majority of the human suffering in the world today. These are sins "reinterpreted" into God's basic rules for us (done by the religious heirarchy itself), taught & spread throughout the religious communities for the purpose of suppressing true understanding of God's Word. When will you begin to see the level of hypocracy that's been infiltrated into organized religious structures? Organized religions of any high level of influence must be run like a *business*, tracking income & expenditures, just like any *openly corporate-based* business. The only thing that religion does that's different from corporations is the end-product that they try to "sell" everyone with. Corporations try to sell you a product or service...Religions try to sell you a load of crap disguised in a thinly-wrapped veil of "peace of mind". My peace of mind comes from God, not a manipulative religion that seeks to control me & my thoughts.
My faith is still in God, not religion.

Originally posted by Truth
I still love your soul as a brother and want you to realize this but you aare very hard headed.

If this is true, then you've come to the wrong place to find *soft-headed* people who will convert as easily as you wish.

Originally posted by Truth
God did do some justly wrath on people for sinss against him, but i will not judge nor qeustion him at all.

Don't get me wrong on this point, like you have with very nearly *every other* point I've tried to make; I do not seek to judge God...But if I can't bring questions to the *source* of ultimate wisdom, then I can't *learn* anything from Him. You can't learn anything without being able to question what you see. It a pretty universal human failing that we fail to see the truth, so we have to "question the teacher" in order to *learn* from the teacher.

Originally posted by R. Daneel Olivaw
Toltec... thank for your information. However, as I've stated, I choose not to comment on the merits of belief systems. The material you presented appears, in my mind, to consist more of the metaphysical than physics...

Pity...I thought that the *title* for this thread would be for a disscussion on the "metaphysics" of human manipulation, which *is* after all, a *social* field, not a *technical* field... However, it also seems that Toltec's use of "technical" information is drawing the discussion away from the original topic as well...After all, finding a technical proof for the human soul doesn't really address the conspiracy of human manipulation, does it?

Paul created christianity and most the new testiment. Jesus told people to love rapist, theives, and murderers. If Truth has a family he would love the man who kills, rapes, enslaves, or just tortures his family. They he would probably pray for them to go to heaven with him. He would love to just stand by, and to have us all stand by and let our families and friends get the same.

And as for sound moving mountains, that is laughable. What would be the frequency and wavelengths of those tone, and how exactly does this happen.

[Edited on 15-9-2002 by joebrown]

That would depend MD upon the orientation of a true Shadow Warrior.
One who was trained in a Lair by a Sage. Something me thinks you and I do not have in common (as I was so trained). Consciously willing ones pupils to dilate is probably very difficult to the lay person. I actually find it very easy and can demonstrate same upon request. As far as Human manipulation, would advise that mankind does not require soul travel to manipulate itself. It does so very easily
without such effort. History as it is understood does deny such efforts as possible, this despite the survival of such as I.

[Edited on 15-9-2002 by Toltec]

RDO: I take it you're unfamiliar with evangelical Christains?

My involvement with them (as a member and visitor to various evangelical churches) was the final straw in my experiences with Christianity. I found the mainstreams hard to take (with their justifying things like the "Song of Solomon" being in the Bible as a metaphor for Jehovah's love for his church (the "your deity loves you and can't wait to grope your breasts" school of metaphor))... but the evangelicals went far beyond that.

Unlike the mainstream churches, they were less familiar with the Bible and yet more insistant on obeying it literally. They'd scream that the Biblical account of creation (6,000 years ago) was accurate and rant about how Jehovah was the same now and forever (conveniently ignoring all the places in the Bible where sacrifice or prayer causes Jehovah to change his mind.)

..and so on, and so forth.

No, Truth is not a fake but simply an evangelical and rather typical of the breed. They have an inner concept of Jesus and Jehovah that they worship that really don't match up with all the stuff in the Bible. I found it difficult to swallow while I was in high school/college and relatively unsophisticated and undereducated.

You can imagine how it sounds to me now. Christianity needs a lot more C.S. Lewises and a lot fewer of these types, IMHO.

Byrd...

I understand your point of view. Indeed, as a student of the collective human condition, fundamentalist Christian theology, and its influence on society are topics in which I have devoted attention. While following much of the rote formulaic tenants of extremist Christian fundamentalism, there are aspects to "Truth's" infantile writings that betray fraudulent intent. For example, the bizarre mixture of the sacraments Catholicism with fundamentalism provides the subtle clue that this person has had a Catholic upbringing, yet is attempting to behave as an extreme fundamentalist.


RDO

Actually, a popular pastime among these sects is "convert thy neighbor" where the neighboring christian isn't quite the right flavor of religiosity for the believer to trust. So there's a huge outreach mission among the evangelicals to convert the Catholics (speaking as a pagan, it's pretty disgusting to read the attacks that the evangelicals launch against the Catholics. They make them out to be far worse than we Wiccans.)

I agree; an obviously Catholic background. I disagree that there's elements of fraud and instead submit that this is merely an 18-19 year old person who's "on fire" with a religious truth and hasn't the training or education to really examine things and therefore "goes with gut feeling."

Originally posted by Toltec
As far as Human manipulation, would advise that mankind does not require soul travel to manipulate itself.

Agreed. However, I was merely trying to stay on topic for this thread. What one can learn from individual instruction is going to be vastly different than what one would learn as part of a large group, even if the teacher is the same.

A basic theory of social manipulation stipulates that free will exists in an individual, but disappears in the masses. This is also the starting point for social manipulation...Dealing with the masses instead of the individual.

I haven't been disagreeing with what you've said...Merely pointed out that it was leading us off-topic.

Originally posted by Byrd
I agree; an obviously Catholic background. I disagree that there's elements of fraud and instead submit that this is merely an 18-19 year old person who's "on fire" with a religious truth and hasn't the training or education to really examine things and therefore "goes with gut feeling."

Thank you for summing up in a single paragraph what I've been trying to say in thousands of words & dozens of posts...

To be honest MD I do enjoy challenging you, this may have more to do with your avatar and hopefully you have not taken it personally (consider the potential of it being a compliment).

It is science which presented an argument against what was accepted in its day a technical explanation (exactly how many angels can fit upon the head of a pin)? Religion is ultimately about the phenomenon we cannot understand, my rendering as to the technical aspects of the soul does present a root cause to assess religion alternatively. This in relation to offering an explanation for which one can conclude, that religion is more than just simply a way to control the masses. This as a result my perspective in relation to the topic presented.

What are your thoughts?

Almost all Christians base there beliefs and interpretation of the Bible based on what they are
taught in there respective Churches by there respective
Pasters,leaders,church theologians. Almost all Christians subscribe to the belief that the old testiment
laws and practices were only for the Jewish people under the old covenant and that all Christians should follow the ten commandments with christs new love thy neighbor as thyself 11th commandment and also christs
and other teachings in the new testiment.

I have found that i have many questions and difficulties
regarding the various beliefs and practices held by the
many Christian denominations most of which i belive is
because of the secondary and even third hand Biblical
interpretations of the Bible from its original Greek and
Aramaic writtings.

It seems to me the Jewish people may have one up on
the Christians in that they still have the original Talmud
(Old testiment manuscripts in Hebrew)
to fall back on.

Be that as it may I have found my Christian walk to be very difficult as i try to read and study the Bible for myself and Live my life the best i can based on what
Christ said and did.

I have also great difficulty with the latest movement in
most modern and many established Christians churches
with the "Rapture" theory and "Born again" interpretations Most churches have been teaching this
"Rapture" theory as established dogma and not informing there congregations that this is just one of several end time interpretations of the Bible.

Also this emphasis on being born again??? that may
be as saying that a person must repent and give there
life to Jesus in order to be saved (salvation) Again I feel
to much emphasis may be placed on being Born again
and not enough on Living a good christ-like life with a
dedication to hard work, help for your fellow man, spreading the good news of salvation in Christ.

Also Christian who keep proclaiming to be born again
do not seem to be taking enough responsibility for there
life and there actions. One such born again Christian lady in my old workplace had 4 sons, with a 5th son on the way. She was a single mom and expects God to
provide for her and her kids. with a miracle if neccessary!!! What ever happened to personal responsibility??? I personally will only have a family and
as many kids as i can support. After i reach that limit i will get myself fixed with a vasectomy.

Much more exphasis should be placed on hard work and
personal responsibility in the Christian world than is being done.



Thats all for now im getting tired of typing

Take card my brothers and sisters in Christ

Bill B.

as a final note it is known that for the first few years
in the Chistian era most of the worshipers were Hebrew
converts who still saw themselves as Jewish and practiced many of the Jewish traditions except for the
sacrifices. as Jesus was suposed to represent the fulfilling Sacrifice for the world. Then as now you had to
be born Jewish to be a practcing Jew otherwise you came under the teachings of the new testiment only and did not have to concern yourself with the old Hebrew practices.

The first post was exactly right !!
Religions are just the drug of the masses!!

If you are unable to refrain from bashing beliefs, do not post in this forum.

Repeated warnings to individuals who continue to bash the beliefs of others in this forum may result in banning.

Respect each other's personal beliefs.


This applies to all users.

I don't see how religion is just a "control" for the masses...again I urge you people who think so to live at nature's mercy for once, you'll see how insignificant ma n is, and why religion exists at all.

But I think Catholicism may have lost its way (indeed most of the ecclesiastical religions) seeing as they are victim to society too, they do not live with nature, but rather seek to conquor it. And athiesm seems to be the last step, the total disbelief in any type of religion, thinking that man has truly conquered god or something...but nature wins in the end, and as we kill life on our planet ruining the ecosystem, nature is winning...whenever you break the balance, nature will always be there, but you will not.

Sincerely,
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god is somewhere you�ll never think and will bring his paradise in a way you won�t even dream........can u hear me now????