NEWS:Minuteman Project draws to close in Ariz.

WyrdeOne,

Let’s put the aye see ell ewe aside for the mo.

I’m very concerned about the porous nature of our borders in light of the fact that we are a nation at war. Our enemies will not hesitate to strike soundly at the soft underbelly of America. Why have we sat back and left the doors open for undocumented aliens to so freely enter our nation? We’re asking for trouble with that.

The Minuteman Project has been successful in many ways. I’m really proud of the work that has been accomplished by these volunteers! They have succeeded in raising our awareness of this situation, they prevented some number of illegal aliens entering our country, and they didn’t beat the snot out of any of the peta brats that showed up to sneer!

Today was not the ending, but the end of the beginning. I look forward to many more successful missions, and indeed I do feel compelled to perhaps participate in a future event myself!

I’m very concerned about the porous nature of our borders in light of the fact that we are a nation at war.

This nation has always been at war. This is nothing new. What's new is the manner in which the state of affairs is presented to the populace. It reminds me more of McCarthyism than any actual war. The enemy is faceless, everpresent, and puffed up for effect. Like a shadow puppet villain that can never be caught. That being said, I believe we need to either close the borders completely, and utilize choke points to handle the flow of legal immigrants, or, alternately, we need to open the borders completely and stop swatting at the swarm, so to speak.

Our enemies will not hesitate to strike soundly at the soft underbelly of America. Why have we sat back and left the doors open for undocumented aliens to so freely enter our nation? We’re asking for trouble with that.

Well, I think if there were legions of terrorists, or even handfuls, waiting in the wings, they would have struck us by now. There are so many vulnerable spots, it boggles the mind.

I think the reason the borders have remained open is because big business thrives on cheap labor, and there's no cheaper labor than that which streams across the border daily. Even small business thrives on cheap labor. Landscaping/construction foremen who are honest and upfront about their unwillingness to hire illegals often can't compete with their less principled competitors.

I think the question of border security is a three fold problem. It's political, technical, and ethical. The heritage of this country is well known. I personally think it would do us a hell of a lot of good to close the borders, retract out tentacles from the international sphere, and heal our gaping wounds for a decade or so. However, this opinion is not shared by multinational billionaires and knee-jerk liberals (exploit the world and save the world folks, united under a common need, touching aint it?).

So there's a lot of reasons, none of which matter to the average American. Most of us don't mine precious minerals and Uranium in Australia, nor do we give thousands of dollars monthly to teach Nigerian youngsters not to play in parasite-ridden pools. We just want to live freely, comfortably, and for a good long time. The price for that lifestyle is the suffering of others, and that's something people need to come to grips with. (With emerging technology, suffering need not be caused, but it would drive down profits from 30%+ to 10% or less, and that's unnacceptable to corporations with international investors.)

The Minuteman Project has been successful in many ways. I’m really proud of the work that has been accomplished by these volunteers! They have succeeded in raising our awareness of this situation, they prevented some number of illegal aliens entering our country, and they didn’t beat the snot out of any of the peta brats that showed up to sneer!

I agree, agree, and agree. The operation was very successful, in every regard. MS-13 failed to make good on their threats, no immigrants were mistreated or harmed, no minutemen acted innapropriately, the neo-nazis failed to show up, and the ACLU members got to play preventative measure.

I'd say everyone was served. So what's not to like?

Well, I'd be happier if we had responsible border policy, so actions like this aren't necessary.

And I'd be happier if this country would stop for five goddamn seconds and take care of the basic needs of its citizens, instead of playing world cop/democracy salesman.

I'd be happier if the world would wake up from the millenia-long nightmare of competition and realize there's finally enough to go around.

But hey, it was a pretty good month.

[edit on 1-5-2005 by WyrdeOne]

This nation has always been at war. This is nothing new. What's new is the manner in which the state of affairs is presented to the populace. It reminds me more of McCarthyism than any actual war. The enemy is faceless, ever-present, and puffed up for effect. Like a shadow puppet villain that can never be caught.

The similarity to Orwell’s ever present enemy of 1984 is not lost on me. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, previous agreements not withstanding. They could be anywhere, anyone. Perhaps Orwell was a prophet. Perhaps life imitates art?

Truthfully, we are very fortunate that we have taken the fight to Iraq, drawn the terrorist dogs to Baghdad instead of having them determined to bring the fight here to us. Further terrorist attacks on U.S. soil would be very traumatic indeed. We’re fairly pampered here. These streets have not run red in defense of our own homes for several generations now.

Why, I guess we’re downright civilized now.

One thing that concerns me is having the National Guard being deployed overseas. I feel that they should be here keeping our ports and borders secure.

Hmm…maybe we could enlist all those trench coat boys into a special militia. Ted Nugent could form a cracked squad of NRA’ers to train them for good instead of evil! That would be cool….

I think the reason the borders have remained open is because big business thrives on cheap labor, and there's no cheaper labor than that which streams across the border daily.

>>and>edit: formatting error

Ok, so now that that is done with, what next? Is our president now going to put the military on the borders? Is he now going to build the 30 foot wall?
What happens now?

Why has your president failed you and continue failing you?

[edit on 1-5-2005 by dgtempe]

Ok, so now that that is done with, what next? Is our president now going to put the military on the borders? Is he now going to build the 30 foot wall?
What happens now?

The 30 foot wall is already in place. It is the spirit of the second amendment that lives in the hearts of pistol-packin patriots from sea to shining sea!

Why has your president failed you and continue failing you?

Whoa hoss, he ain't mine either. The first time he got in, I was in Nashville and voted for Nader, so maybe I was part of that mistake, but last year I voted for that two legged donkey that the Dems trotted out, and it still didn't make a difference!

What surprises the hell out of me is the fact that so many really extreme left wing liberals support illegal immigration. Their loud mouths scream anyone who opposes illegal immigration and violation of our borders is an evil paranoid rascist. In my opinion, anyone who supports illegal immigration opposes things like human rights and dignity.

First off, many of the illegals are brought in by unscrupulous human traffickers in deplorable conditions. They are stuffed like animals into cattle cars and trucks, and many times, people die this way from poor sanitation, suffocation, or heat stroke. These peoples desires for a better life are preyed upon by individuals who are bringing them here for money, and dont care about the well being of these people. Anybody who supports this, which is both illegal immigration AND murder, in my opinion, must be pretty damn inhumane, and robably racist.

Then, if the illegals survive the trip, they then are preyed upon again by traffickers in illegal identities, social security numbers, ect. These people end up paying thousands of dollars for fake IDs and driver licences, which often costs them every penny they have. This is exploitation made off human desperation. Again, anyone who thinks illegals should be able to cross the border and be put through this is questionable.

There is also the biggest issue: cheap labor. Since legally, illegal immigrants dont exist, they can be exploited for cheap labor. They are paid under the table below minimum wage, and work in conditions whcih are not safe, and they dont have workmans comp or any legal recourse for things like safety and health violations. In agricultural situations, for instance, they may be exposed to pesticides or toxic chemicals that could make them sick. Anyone who supports this sort of cheap exploitation IS a racist. The common justification is that they do jobs other Americans wont. WRONG. Because they can be exploited, they become the prefered worker of unscrupulous employers. Thus, for example, construction companies will hire them under the table instead of hiring an American who wants that job, because a legal American resident has to be paid minimum wage, plus the employer must also pay workers comp, unemployment insurance, and sometimes benefits, plus federal income taxes. With an illegal immigrant, you dont have to do anything, and you dont even have to provide them with equipment to protect their safey and health. Thus, such employers, instead of hiring an American who WANTS the work but will not stand for subhuman treatment, will instead hire people who can be used up, abused, exploited, and discarded. Anyone who supports this, is a racist, and if youre a liberal who supports this, youre a closet racist.

I am against anyone comming into this country, abusing our laws, and comming in illegal. I do, however full heartly support legal, humane immigration. I don't want immigration stopped. Quite the opposite, I want immigration to continue. I like immigrants. I have more in common with them than I do most other Americans. I enjoy their presence in this country, essential to our culture and heritage.

I support legal, safe immigration. I feel that our borders should be guarded and locked down along their lengths. But on the same ticket, I think we should open up large immigration centers along the key points of the border, sort of " Ellis Islands in the Desert". I think, that anyone from Mexico or elsewhere coming through the Mexican border, whose only desire is to come here for an improved life and better opprotunity, should be directed to these centers, which should be large facilities with beds, toilets, cafeterias, and medical facilities. When there, they will fill out requests to enter the US to live and work. The immigration officals then will basically do background checks to ensure they are not violent felons or drug runners. If the individual entering the country is ill, there should be medical facilities available for those who are sick to recieve medical treatment to cure them before they enter the country. During the time they are inprocessing, there should be classes given to the people, informing them of US laws, what their rights and responsibilties are as workers and residents. They should be educated about minimum wage, workmans comp, and warned to avoid unscrupulous people who will give them money under the table. When their background checks are complete, and their physical exams show they are not carrying contagious disease, or if they are, those diseases have been treated, they should then be granted entry into the country, and each issued a social security number and green card, and after that, allowed to leave the processing centers and enter the country wherever they wish to go. Those people found to be involved in drug trafficking, have violent histories, or are affiliated with terrorists or anti American groups should be recorded and then sent back with a warning not to return. But anyone else who is genuine in their desire to come here and have a better life should be allowed to enter, with full identities and also be informed about their rights and such so that know who to avoid to prevent exploitation or unscrupulous activities.

The cost of running such centers would be far less in the long run compared to the massive costs illegal border crossing costs this country in the long run. When one considers the costs of illegal immigration crimes, drug trafficking, health care, worker injuries, fake ID and license rings, cost in lives of people attempting dangerous crossing, plus assaults on US citizens by illegals with less than noble intentions coming over, will be money well spent. Not only will we cut down on scumbags who smuggle drugs or people over in less than safe conditions, or cut down on the number of criminals or other trash, we will also be getting a steady flow of quality, honest, decent people who will benefit this country with their work ethics and culture, and will provide them a safer, easier way for them to come here, and enjoy the full benefits and protections provided to American citizens, and employment opportunities that are fair in safe working envorinments for the same wages afforded to the rest of us.

But anyone who supports illegal immigration, in my opinion, no matter what half of the political fence you stand on, supports exploitation and human misery. Shame on you.

Road, you DO have a point. Two birds of a feather...Wont get any argument there from me.

Does the president of the United States still work for US?
Always wondering.......

Skadi,
I dont know what liberals you know, but THIS liberal says either get your documents or stay in your own country. Period.

You listen to too much Rush Limbaugh (there's something wrong with him) propaganda...

I know the vile he spews on a daily basis. You see, i walk 3 miles a day and i tune him on my walkman...I found that my adrenaline pumps fiercely when i listen to the hatred, lies and hypocracy... And it gives me the chance to assess things...not to mention it keeps me in shape.

All the liberals i know agree they want to come here? Get your gosh darned papers in order. MY PARENTS DID when we left a communist country many many moons ago. LEGALLY. So should they.
They come over because they know there's a good chance they will get away with it, get hired, avail themselves of the hand outs, etc.

Its time for this president to stop their horsey.

Well I salute the Minutemen. So long as they continue to keep the amount of self control that they have shown then we really don't have any problems with the Minutement themselves. There are two problems however. For one thing when Mexican citizens are that desperate to leave the country you know something isn't right down there. And number two, why should we have to rely on a private group? Isn't it the goverment's job to secure our borders?

So I say excellent work to the men and women involved in the project. However such a need for a group should be eliminated. It makes me wonder how come we can't just build a nice long concrete wall along the border (with guarded entry points of course) and then post sensors along the border. Sure it'll cost money but just think how much we already lose per year because of illegal immigrants.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Skadi,
I dont know what liberals you know, but THIS liberal says either get your documents or stay in your own country. Period.

You listen to too much Rush Limbaugh (there's something wrong with him) propaganda...

I know the vile he spews on a daily basis. You see, i walk 3 miles a day and i tune him on my walkman...I found that my adrenaline pumps fiercely when i listen to the hatred, lies and hypocracy... And it gives me the chance to assess things...not to mention it keeps me in shape.

All the liberals i know agree they want to come here? Get your gosh darned papers in order. MY PARENTS DID when we left a communist country many many moons ago. LEGALLY. So should they.
They come over because they know there's a good chance they will get away with it, get hired, avail themselves of the hand outs, etc.

Its time for this president to stop their horsey.

The liberals I am refering to, dgtempe, are the ones, like curme, who claim anyone who has a problem with illegal immigration is a paranoid white racist.

I am sorry if I did not make it clear I was refering to extreme left wingers with no common sense who are like sheep following an extreme left wing dogma. I know there are many respectable democrats and liberals who oppose illegal immigration not only because its inhuman and unscrupulous, but its a national security hazard. I also know there are certain conservatives who dont want it stopped because it provides them cheap slave labor.

I of course, know there are plenty of conservatives and liberals alike, who might disagree on many things, but both believe that illegal immigration is a problem. Which it is. Its a legal issue, its a security issue, and its an issue of humanity. I was not implying that liberals in general support it, but trying to refer to the extreme left, which I hold in the same contempt as the extreme right, get mouthy and plaster the racist label on anyone who opposes this unchecked flood of humanity.

If it was boatloads of Swedish or German illegals sneaking in the country, my view would be unchanged. I do not care what nation or color a person identifies with, and I am more than pleased that people all over the world still see America as a wonderful place they wish to call home.

I only demand that they submit to a background and health check to show that they indeed wish to help make America a better place, and anyone who honestly want to come and live here and have a better life should have no problem with such a check. But common sense gives me pause to people who would sneak in and not subject themselves to a basic background check. If I was going to another country to live, which I am going to be doing for a time period, I hold no objections to that country doing checks on me, both health and background, to ensure I am not going to burden them or cause them problems. I expect the same coutesy in my land.

Once a person has been shown not to be a criminal, spy, or terrorist, and any contagious diseases have been identified and treated, then I am more them happy to wave them right in and welcome them. Its how my ancestors came here, and I certainly do not wish to prevent others with honest intentions from comming here.

But it is the responsibility of the govornment and person to both check and show they are indeed, here for good intentions.

We have no shortage of losers, criminals, and other scum in this country, its something we are more than self sufficent in producing. The last thing we need to do is import it.

I would like to thank the Minutemen for a job well done!!!
There was much said here on ATS about vigilante, shootings, killings, etc... that never happened.

They did succeed at getting the government's attention and getting more agents assigned to the border.

They did succeed at reducing illegal aliens coming into the US.

They did succeed at keeping peace.

To all of you who doubted their success - shame on you, you are the ones that have lost the American spirit.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by dgtempe
Skadi,
I dont know what liberals you know, but THIS liberal says either get your documents or stay in your own country. Period.

You listen to too much Rush Limbaugh (there's something wrong with him) propaganda...

I know the vile he spews on a daily basis. You see, i walk 3 miles a day and i tune him on my walkman...I found that my adrenaline pumps fiercely when i listen to the hatred, lies and hypocracy... And it gives me the chance to assess things...not to mention it keeps me in shape.

All the liberals i know agree they want to come here? Get your gosh darned papers in order. MY PARENTS DID when we left a communist country many many moons ago. LEGALLY. So should they.
They come over because they know there's a good chance they will get away with it, get hired, avail themselves of the hand outs, etc.

Its time for this president to stop their horsey.

The liberals I am refering to, dgtempe, are the ones, like curme, who claim anyone who has a problem with illegal immigration is a paranoid white racist.

I am sorry if I did not make it clear I was refering to extreme left wingers with no common sense who are like sheep following an extreme left wing dogma. I know there are many respectable democrats and liberals who oppose illegal immigration not only because its inhuman and unscrupulous, but its a national security hazard. I also know there are certain conservatives who dont want it stopped because it provides them cheap slave labor.

I of course, know there are plenty of conservatives and liberals alike, who might disagree on many things, but both believe that illegal immigration is a problem. Which it is. Its a legal issue, its a security issue, and its an issue of humanity. I was not implying that liberals in general support it, but trying to refer to the extreme left, which I hold in the same contempt as the extreme right, get mouthy and plaster the racist label on anyone who opposes this unchecked flood of humanity.

If it was boatloads of Swedish or German illegals sneaking in the country, my view would be unchanged. I do not care what nation or color a person identifies with, and I am more than pleased that people all over the world still see America as a wonderful place they wish to call home.

I only demand that they submit to a background and health check to show that they indeed wish to help make America a better place, and anyone who honestly want to come and live here and have a better life should have no problem with such a check. But common sense gives me pause to people who would sneak in and not subject themselves to a basic background check. If I was going to another country to live, which I am going to be doing for a time period, I hold no objections to that country doing checks on me, both health and background, to ensure I am not going to burden them or cause them problems. I expect the same coutesy in my land.

Once a person has been shown not to be a criminal, spy, or terrorist, and any contagious diseases have been identified and treated, then I am more them happy to wave them right in and welcome them. Its how my ancestors came here, and I certainly do not wish to prevent others with honest intentions from comming here.

But it is the responsibility of the govornment and person to both check and show they are indeed, here for good intentions.

We have no shortage of losers, criminals, and other scum in this country, its something we are more than self sufficent in producing. The last thing we need to do is import it.

Skadi the Elf:
that was a well articulated response and one in which I certainly concur. Now perhaps if our representatives on BOTH sides of the political spectrum would just do the same, we might get something accomplished.

The Minuteman exercise in Arizona was a success. They were americans from a variety of walks of life who felt strongly that their government was letting them down, so they took action.
America is our house and we've a right to say who is welcome. Those whose first steps into that house constitute a violation of our laws, should be prevented from doing so.
Legal immigration should be allowed and encouraged. Illegal entry should be shut down and harshly punished.
If Mexico was 'fined' for their inability to police their own borders, Mexico would I'm sure come up with some means of preventing it.
I single out Mexico as it seems to be the primary offender. I would be no happier with hordes of illegal Swedes.