Before Satan was a Bad Guy

Before Satan was a Bad Guy

I found a pretty good short video giving some of the background info on the evolution of Satan as a character, as opposed to a satan as an obstruction or opponent.


What I thought I'd do is look at the first instance of a satan recorded in the Bible. It's Numbers 22:22.

22But God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary[satan] against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him.

For "as an adversary" there is the Hebrew word לְשָׂטָ֣ן, pronounced "lə·śā·ṭān", it's a preposition linked to a common noun. Other common nouns which could fit here would be an obstruction, or barrier. Like walls, dams, doors which must be opened in order to go through a doorway.

The story, of course, is the story of Balaam son of Beor. The prophet of God, the LORD, who contracted to curse the "Exodus Israelites before they could sweep in and possess the land".

So God was angry and sent an angel of the LORD to be a satan (blocker of the way).

There is a bit of extra Biblical info about Balaam, son of Beor. His house was found in 1967, at Deir Alla, Jordan. He wrote some vision and prophecy stuff on the walls of his house between 880–770 BCE. Biblical scholars avoid the subject because it sort of dates Balaam a long time after the "Exodus". Plus, he was obviously a polytheist. see: Deir_Alla_inscription

This evolution of Satan from being say a dam on a river to being The Dam which wants, desires, and schemes to destroy fishing and lead the city to death by starvation, is kind of like anthropomorphism. "The Volcano really wants to kill us." It's okay if you are an animist. Nothing wrong with that.

Before Satan was a bad guy, it wasn't a guy at all.

Balance .

All is in Balance . The Pendulum swings one way and is guaranteed to swing the other.

Jesus needed Judas.

God needs Satan.

Evil is a manifestation of Human Beings. Evil continues because Humans continue to commit evil acts.

My Favorite Bible verse . JOB 38:11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

My interpretation of what Satan is from reading the bible over the years is that he is the angel or entity that tests our worthiness. One of the authors of the reality we live in.

I personally do not have anything against Satan, we do not have to take the bait he dangles in front of us. He gives us our test and god uses him to test us. Supposedly he wagers with god....I wonder what they use for money in their bets? He is god's adversary, not an enemy....after all he is one of god's angels. People blame Satan when his temptations lead to them doing bad things...Satan only tempts them, he does not force them to turn against god. Job was tested by Satan, with god's approval and passed his test eventually.

Don't actually know what the Devil or Demons are yet, but I think that people possessed by the devil are actually people who have turned evil...a human trait. Demons, might be the souls of people and possibly even animals that did not pass the test of righteousness and were not allowed to go to where good souls go. Heaven is where few really good souls go from what I read, then there is the collective consciousness of the good souls and also another place for the collective consciousness of the bad souls...maybe in some place called hell for the bad.

That is how I am interpreting things, not the same as I was taught in sunday schools and in church, but much of it actually intertwines with how I was taught when I was young. I do believe in God, the collective consciousness of all that exists, and in the local entity which is earths good collective consciousness of everything on this planet...they are both entities that have great power. Satan, sometimes referred to as Samael tries to deceive people into going away from god...one who delivers the test of rightiousness. I do not know if Lucifer is the same as samael and satan for sure. Lucifer does not seem to match the other angels name styles.

I spent some time...actually a lot of time studying this subject and the primordial human language. I personally have nothing against Satan, face it, why would I try to thrash at an angel when all I have to do is resist his temptations. I am not perfect, I have fallen for his temptations in the past, but now I have got pretty good at deflecting temptations to do things that are not right. I am sure no angel, but I could turn into a demon if I did not have coffee.

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

A perfect balance would require equal but opposite forces. That's kind of what Zoroastrianism is.

I don't know very much about Zoroastrianism, like what purpose a fire temple serves. When I found some Youtube videos by the leading expert living in the U.S. I got distracted by the ethics he was explaining.

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I found the explanation of teleological method of History toward the end of the video rather interesting. I sort of grew up with that outlook, like "Of course it was destined for Greece to beat Persia in the Battle of Marathon and the Battle of Salamis, else the present wouldn't be the present."

I eventually came to label that way of thinking Chauvinism of the Present.

a reply to: rickymouse

why would I try to thrash at an angel when all I have to do is resist his temptations.

I am no Platonist so I never had any reason to consider the intangible(idea) as more real than the actual. So pesky "demons" pretty much don't bother me. My "demons" don't actually communicate anything, just sort of stand there for a short time.
///Disclaimer/// That isn't a normal everyday sort of thing. It was a few months about 30 years ago. I chalk it up to extreme emotional messed-up-ness. No way of verifying if it was hallucination or not, and I use the Pagan definition of demon, "of divine origin". It's sort of etymologically correct.

Now coffee is an interesting topic: Some people need it, some don't. I drink about two pots a day; half of the 2nd pot within an hour of going to bed. I can't sleep a whole 6 or 7 hours straight without being fully caffeinated. I should check sometime how far that puts me out of the normal curve.

a reply to: FullHeathen

Love this! S/F. My sons mom calls me Satin all the time! Now I have the power to say Nope!

a reply to: JJproductions

You can ask her, "In what way am I blocking you? Tell me, and I'll step aside."
Only if it's appropriate to the circumstance, that is.

Wait a minute! Satin is a fabric weave pattern. I don't know what she could be implying with that.

a reply to: FullHeathen

Balaam, son of Beor?

Is that the fellow with the talking donkey he abused?

a reply to: JJproductions

lol, my son sent me a photo of his mom early this morning. Nothing has changed I told him!

a reply to: rickymouse

Satan is a lot more than just a tester and tempter. He is the enemy. I have seen the devil in visions and also have seen multitudes of demons, lesser ones and powers, and principalities. They really hate the human race to a degree that humans can't really know. If there was a Hate-O-Meter to measure their hatred of mankind, it would explode like a bomb.

The devil's purpose is to destroy as many people as possible by tempting to sin, which separates people further away from God. Destroying families. Destroy families, and you can destroy nations.

a reply to: andy06shake

Yep. That's the one.

Balaam and the angel, painting from Gustav Jaeger, 1836

The LORD opened the donkey's mouth and she stated her case rather eloquently. It isn't stated whether her mouth was closed afterward.

a reply to: FullHeathen

Well, either way animal cruelty is wrong so Balaam was a bit of an ass.

Talking Donkeys through..............

I am putting that one in the same category as the tale of Noah's Ark.

a reply to: FullHeathen

A perfect balance would require equal but opposite forces. That's kind of what Zoroastrianism is.

Nothing is Perfect short of the Creator .

The Universe is not striving for a Perfect balance but rather it is always a balancing act .

Think of it like this ..... An Olympic Athlete on a Balance Beam is never in ' Perfect Balance ' . They are constantly using the Opposing forces of there Muscles and Body weight to maintain that balance .

Nothing is at Rest , Everything including us ' Especially Us ' is in motion Vibrating along with the Universe .

first there is a argument as to when the angel known as the "satan" that opposed Yahweh first appeared, then when he did he was not referred to as satan but as lucifer in english or (the english spelling of the hebrew word) Helel or Haylel , which means to shine or boast. and that wasn't even his name, we don't know what his real name is. lucifer can be used as a word used for Venus , morning star, as the bear of light, the shinning one. Jesus was referred to as the same thing, and there are stories of people that claim to have seen a angels describing them as shinning , bright, blinding, even in the bible.

in just about every language that i've heard of it is not unusual for a person / being to be referred to using the word for what they do or are.

from websters,

Etymology
Middle English, "the morning star, a fallen rebel archangel, the Devil," going back to Old English, borrowed from Latin Lūcifer "morning star," noun derivative of lūcifer "light-bringing, light-bearing," from lūc-, lūx "light" + -i- -i- + -fer -fer — more at light entry 1 Note: In patristic Latin Lūcifer was taken to be a name for the Devil of Christianity, based on the use of the word in the Vulgate rendering of Isaiah 14:12, where it translates Hebrew hêlēl, taken to mean "the shining one."
Word History

second which i won't go into much, the phrase "as an adversary" there can be a argument as to what the words as, an, and adversary are being used as. see what i dd there

type in the word in this link,
Word Type

or you could use this one, type in the whole sentence, "God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him."

here i'll do it for you,

God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an enemy[satan]] against him.
rewordify.com...

there's no doubt about what that sentence means now is there.

then there the thing about Deir Alla Inscription, no where in the wiki link you provided does it say it was Balaam house. what it does say

from your link,

The excavation revealed a multiple-chamber structure that had been destroyed by an earthquake during the Persian period, on the wall of which was written a story relating visions of Bal'am, son of Be'or, a "seer of the gods", who may be the same Balaam son of Be'or mentioned in Numbers 22–24 and in other passages of the Bible. The Deir Alla inscription's take on Bala'am differs from that given in the Book of Numbers. Bal'am's god is associated with the goddess Šagar-we-Ishtar. Deities with such names, "Šagar-and-Ishtar" (Or Aštar[4],) certainly are known to history, but quite separately. The enigmatic narrative also foregrounds the "Shaddayin" who establish a council. (שדין, deities).[5] It also features the word "Elohin", taken to mean "gods" in the plural rather than the Hebrew deity.

which is pretty much what archeologists are saying and some say the city dates from the middle bronze age to the iron age city and the structure / building maybe next to a temple complex and has two different versions written in two different but similar languages.

from your wiki link,

Though containing some features of Aramaic, such as the word bar "(son of [Beor])" rather than the Canaanite ben, it also has many elements of Canaanite languages, leading some to believe it was written in a dialect of Canaanite rather than an early form of Aramaic. The inscription has been dated to 880–770 BCE.[11] Klaus Beyer calls the language South Gileadite.[14] Holger Gzella reckons the mixture of Canaanite vocabulary and narration with a primarily Aramaic grammatical core reflect a translation of a Syria-Palestinian story into a literary Aramaic text.[15] Unknown script an

In the 1960s, in addition to hundreds of vessels like bowls and jars, seven clay tablets were found with an unknown script. They haven't been fully deciphered,[17] nor has their clay been tested to see if it's local to Deir Alla.[18] Cannabis has been found as hemp here and at another Iron Age cultic site, Tel Arad in the Negev, as burned incense or drug.[19]

ha just thought about this, burning weed as incense for a sweet savoura to the lord , the scribe got high as a Georgia Pine and was mixing up his languages.

there are a few non bias non religious papers on it, just about all i've found want you to join or pay something. there is a butt load of bias papers and religious archeology papers on it.

here is a expert from from one that opens a PDF and mainly talks about the tablets found at the same place the wall inscriptions were found dating back to the middle bronze age. the city it's self date back to the middle bronze age.

warning link opens / downlaods a pdf,

Deir ‘Alla harbors habitation layers dating back to the Middle Bronze Age but is most famous for the Iron Age text relating to the biblical diviner Balaam, found written in beautiful Aramaic script on a plastered wall in one of the Iron Age buildings. During earlier seasons, the team was also exploring a temple with auxiliary buildings from the latest phase of the Late Bronze Age (ca. 1185-1140 BCE) with rich evidence for burning and destruction. Similar destruction was later attested in other parts of the settlement during subsequent seasons of excavations. It is these heavily burned layers that yielded the enigmatic clay tablets with a hitherto unknown script.
The Enigmatic Tablets from Late Bronze Age Deir ‘Alla - ASOR

another thing, the bible all thru the old and sometimes in the new testaments talks about many Hebrews from Abraham till i'am gonna say when they became Israelite's during the roman period or later worshiped multiple or other deities.

so i have to disagree with your conclusion.

ETA: it is also not unusual for a story that was written or passed down to have different versions that has been shown to actually have happened time and time again in all sorts of history.

a reply to: BigJohnTally

so i have to disagree with your conclusion.

Seems fair. My conclusion was:
"Before Satan was a bad guy, it wasn't a guy at all".

Since I am not a reader of Hebrew, I rely on various tools like concordances an interlinear texts. So I admit that I cannot find an instance where the Hebrew לְשָׂטָ֣ן, pronounced "lə·śā·ṭān" is used to denote an inanimate object like a boulder in the road. It seems to always be used for a person or being in a role.

So, to update my conclusion:

Before Satan was The Bad Guy, he wasn't any guy in particular, and not particularly bad.
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then there the thing about Deir Alla Inscription, no where in the wiki link you provided does it say it was Balaam house.

You are correct. I overreached that one to be sure.

I suppose that I wanted to create the image of the movie trope mad man in his cell writing all over the walls. Sorry about that.

To be honest; I haven't looked into the Deir Alla material in about 15 years. Information was sparse in those days.

a reply to: andy06shake

I am putting that one in the same category as the tale of Noah's Ark.

I may have to make a further amendment to my original post.

I watched another Youtube video which interviewed Elaine Pagels, noted American historian of religion.

She stated that there was pre-Zoroastrian precedent for the idea of god vs god motif in the oldest of mythologies.

Then I remembered a few things, like the flood story recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh. The god Enlil (top god at the time, wind, air, earth, and storms, sort of like Zeus) wanted to wipe humanity out. Enki (god of water, knowledge, crafts, one of the Anunnaki) secretly warns Utnapishtim of the coming flood and gives him instructions for building a boat so that life may survive.

So in that sense the top god wanted destruction and the god lower in the hierarchy opposed(satanically) the wishes of his "superior".

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Plus, I remembered a conversation I had with a possible Zoroastrian. I suggested that the absolute monotheism of post-exilic Hebrew texts came from Zoroastrianism, and she disputed it. She said it was Babylonian Marduk to blame.

Marduk was the guy who all the other gods gave their unique powers to so that he could defeat Tiamat and thereby bring order to the World. That made all other gods lesser than Marduk. He alone would be God, and the others would be reduced to angel-like status.

I think that's what she meant. I may still be a bit confused about what she was trying to tell me.

a reply to: FullHeathen

All sounds rather interesting.

And there are multiple stories about flooding contained in just about every religion.

Still no evidence of an actual world flood all the same regarding the time period in question.

But plenty of regional affairs.

Which is most likely were the tale comes from or rather a rehash of flood tales that came before.

a reply to: andy06shake

There were some local floods in Mesopotamia. Archeological digs show that houses were soon rebuilt when the water level dropped. Digs of areas outside the flood plane show no contemporary interruption. So, local to be sure.

There is flooding right now in SE U.S. I would bet that rebuilding will happen shortly.

And Utnapishtim ended up in the Persian Gulf, not Anatolia (Turkey).

a reply to: FullHeathen

I read this sci-fy book, Pastwatch by Orson Scott Card, where, in the future, there is a satellite technology that allows scientists to backwards track weather patterns, all kinds of migration patterns, and planetary changes brought about by earthquakes and meteor strikes, etc. They get so good at it they can actually see and read the lips of people there, in the past.

Anyway, in the fictional book, the scientists discovered that the Mediterranean Sea used to be dry land, a greatly populated land filled with farms and cities that flooded, all at once when the mountains gave way to what is now the Strait of Gibraltar. I can't remember if there was an earthquake, glacier melt, all of the above, or what happened, but that always made a lot of sense to me, and would explain a lot of flood lore, imho.

Meh, you gotta read the book!

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Thanks for the book recommendation. I sure recognize the name Orson Scott Card. Don't think I've read that book or series though.

As for what the scientists say about the Mediterranean:

Scientists estimate that the sea was last filled about 5.3 million years ago (mya) in less than two years by the Zanclean flood. Water poured in from the Atlantic Ocean through a newly breached gateway now called the Strait of Gibraltar at an estimated rate of about three orders of magnitude (one thousand times) larger than the current flow of the Amazon River.
en.wikipedia.org...

Check out Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis, could be closer to human times any way.