Is anything really random?

I believe everything has a pattern to it. I believe that electrons dont move randomly and move in a really fine pattern around the nucleus. I also believe that lotto numbers are not completely random. There has to be a pattern to them, there has to be some formula that can explain chaos not in random manner, but with a deliberate set of laws. Anybody agree?

Yes I agree. I think that under the exact same circumstances the exact same results will come up. The problem is the variables are far too numerous for us to know for sure if the circumstances are EXACTLY the same or not.

an interesting debate, but i would not know where to begin.

part of me goes for the agree side, but the other half wants to debate the other.

i do think that most anything can be calculated.

Yes I agree. I think that under the exact same circumstances the exact same results will come up. The problem is the variables are far too numerous for us to know for sure if the circumstances are EXACTLY the same or not.

That pretty much sums it up. Is there such thing as true randomness? Probably not. Is it possible for us to measure things so accurately that chaos no longer exists? no and probably never will, therefore, as far as we are concerned, chaos theory stands.

If it was possible to measure everything at once in one instant then nothing would be random because we could calculate everything in that particular situation (excluding outside forces of course). At present this is supposed inpossible because u cannot measure both a particles position and velocity only one or the other, its explained in quantum theory.

The Lottery is random, and will continue to be so, until the same person wins the jackpot on a regular basis, I guess thats why they call it a lottery.

No 2 balls are identical, not just their numerical differences, I mean their molecular structure. They will appear quite similar to the naked eye but have numerous differences. Like, the amount of print that makes up the number, the composition of the dye used for the colouring of the balls.

I don't disagree with your initial claim, as patterns most definitely exist within nature but I would never say they are identical.

Identical twins are never identical.

You know, this is a good place to think about things. In the realms of mathematics.

If the original post is correct, then everything has a pattern, and nothing is random. I cannot agree with this fully. To an extent, it may be possible that electrons as stated above have some sort of pattern. But, I find it unlikely.

For this to be correct, then free will would necessarily have to cease to exist. I cannot buy into believing that I cannot choose freely. When we make a decision, it is either ours, or it is prescripted. If everything has a pattern, and no numbers are really random, then neither are our thoughts.

What if I was to choose to look closely at an electron. The closer we look, the more disruptive we are to the observed. This is basically the uncertainty we talk about. If I choose to look, I disrupt by my choice. This disruption could cause a chain reaction. The chain reaction itself may be able to be mathematically predicted. However, my choice to cause it is my choice, and not the result of a complex mathematical formula.

This is my opinion. I hope I am correct. it would be miserable knowing I had no choice.

[edit on 4/18/2005 by Seapeople]

If there was a pattern, I could win lots of money from the lotto

In fact I was watching the news recently and saw a guy, who said that the number 8 is the least common in the Mass Lotto.

IMHO, I think that everyone is destined to do what they do. Everything is pre-destined.

Given INFINITE time, we will all come back, and live the same exact lives. Sometimes we won't, but with infinite seconds, we have to come back, don't we?

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Isn't random by definition, unpredictable?

To some degree that is a function of the mind(s) trying to predict something. If we are stupid enough everything seems random. ( I think i am mostly teasing us)

Chaos functions are both predictable and unpredictable. The range is limited, predictable, the actual values that are produced are only intermitantly partitionably [portion of the total range they will fall in] predictable.

If you take all possible integers they go from zero to infinity. half the numbers will be infinity/2 or greater which is essentially infinity. 3/4 of the numbers will be infinity/4 or greater, again essentially infinity. etc.

So a random number generator with a range of infinity would just crank out infinity, infinity, infinity, infinity, . . . endlessly. [not interesting]

I think the real randomness of the Universe is a function of somekind of fractal. Like the mandlebrot/julia set. Where there are large zones that are all the same, ie. predictable, but certain areas that have diverse and quasi-unpredictable events. Sort of like you have an infinite ocean and a barren island in the middle of it. All the action is along the shoreline, where the mix of land and some water allows life/chaos to occur.

We are i think looking for predictable chaos. Which might be possible, at least to some degree.
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