Understanding the Biblical story of Abraham's intended sacrifice of Isaac...

Hi folks,

Something that cropped up in a discussion between Russell Brand & Alex Jones in their interview published today on Russell Brand's locals community page, was the matter of child sacrifice in occult rituals. While it is commonly understood that Satanic rituals demand child sacrifice, though the reasons may not be understood fully by many people; what is often countered is that "Well, God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in exactly the same way.." I'm here to explain that story, and why the typical deadhead response of equating the Biblical story with infant sacrifice in occultism simply doesn't wash.

In the Biblical story, God tests Abraham, asking him to sacrifice his one & only 'child of promise' (the child who was born miraculously to the formerly barren wife of Abraham, Sarah, when she was around 90 years of age). The 'child of promise' title comes from the fact that God had promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations, and that his descendants would be as 'numerous as the sands on the seashore/ stars in the Heavens'. It was promised that through his genetic lineage 'all the families (nations) of Earth will be blessed' (through the Messiah, the eventual new covenant between God & Man). So the idea that God was telling Abraham to sacrifice the child who was to be the originator of those many nations would have seemed a paradox to Abraham himself - but the test was in part whether he would trust God to fulfil His promise even if Isaac was no more.

However, the principle point of the sacrifice request was to generate a teachable moment, a lesson that would be passed down to all the many descendants that Isaac would ultimately produce. Because when Abraham got to the point of being willing to drive the knife into Isaac's chest, the Angel of the Lord (a Christophany, the appearance of the pre-incarnate Son of God) manifested & commanded Abraham NOT to kill Isaac, but instead to take hold of the ram which was seen to be nearby, caught in a thicket of thorn bushes. God provided an alternative, animal sacrifice, to fulfil the ancient code that without the spilling of blood, there can be no forgiveness of sin. This comes from the 'eye for an eye' spiritual principle, that where spiritual death is caused by the sinfulness of Man, there must be a spilling of blood in sacrifice to account for the forgiveness of that sin, and this is why Christ had to come & present Himself voluntarily to redeem the sinfulness of the entire human race many thousands of years later. That ultimate sacrifice operated both forwards & backwards in time, with those held captive in 'Hell' since ancient times being released after Jesus ministered to them on having completed His own sacrificial act & upon descending into Hell in order to 'lead many captives in His train' when He ascended to Heaven victoriously.

So what was the teachable moment for Abraham? It was simple - STOP sacrificing children, for I (God) will never genuinely ask you to do this ever, and this teachable moment need not be repeated since you will pass on the instruction to Isaac & your descendants. You must understand that at the time Abraham & Isaac were living, it was the most common thing in the region in which they lived (and indeed all over the world) for the demonic powers & principalities operating through idolatrous worship to demand occult sacrifice of children. Specifically in that geographical region the demon-god Molech had a very popular cult, and the devotees were required to cast their children into flames of fire, or onto metal griddles suspended above fires, to burn them to death in the most appalling manner. And the people would do this willingly, because they were held captive to the bondage of idolatrous demon worship, with severe black magic holding everyone in fear of the leading priests of the cults that practiced in this manner.

God, the true God, through the teachable moment of Abraham & Isaac, was instituting a new order to the nature of divine worship. Only animals were required in the fulfilment of this impulse to sacrifice in order to redeem from sin & death. God demanded that child sacrifice be abolished, and the Israelites who held to the teachings of the true God were absolutely strict on this point, whereas the many tribes which sprang up around ancient Israel, even those descended from Abraham's lineage (such as Edomites & Hittites), would still sometimes practice these occult traditions of child sacrifice. At various times some groups of Israelites rebelled & performed sacrifices of their children to Molech, and when they did this God rebuked them sternly through the prophets (in the following instances through Moses, who was the first of the prophets, and then much later by Jeremiah, who was talking to the kingdom of Judah at the time).

Then the LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘Any Israelite or foreigner living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the land are to stone him. And I will set My face against that man and cut him off from his people, because by giving his offspring to Molech, he has defiled My sanctuary and profaned My holy name.

Leviticus 20: 1-3

They have placed their abominations in the house that bears My Name, and so have defiled it. They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech — something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin.

Jeremiah 32: 34-35

It should be clear from these examples, and from the original story of Abraham & Isaac, that God has always demanded that there should be an end to the practice of child sacrifice in occult rituals, and indeed He steadily moved Humanity away from such practices, first by commanding a nation to be set apart as distinct from the other nations around it, by refusing to sacrifice human children, instead sacrificing animals in a highly organised system set apart as holy, designed to enliven the minds of the Jewish nation towards ideas of holiness & righteousness, being separate from those who commit great evils against their own children, against the very future of Humanity, against innocence itself, by replacing such sacrifices with the sacrifice of lower forms of life.

But then, ultimately, GOD HIMSELF literally volunteered to be sacrificed, condemned by evil leaders, tortured to death by a criminal regime, in order to take upon Himself once & for all time, all of the need for sacrifice that would ever exist, meaning there would never again be a need for ANY sort of living sacrifice, other than a sacrifice of commitment to personal holiness, committing oneself to a life devoid of sinful conduct, decrying a life of licentious pleasure, instead committing to holiness. That is a true, modern, living sacrifice, and we are commanded to commit ourselves to that path entirely, to create a new life out of the opportunity that Christ's sacrifice provides for us, that we may be born again, as if our sins had never been committed - even to the point that future sins committed in error are also forgiven, if we will honour God by admitting our faults when we are driven somehow to commit sin after our original commitment to His ways.

I hope that covers the 'teachable moment' of Abraham & Isaac, onward to Christ.


FITO.

In terms of actual occult sacrifice of infants & children, the demonic powers which operate through such rituals are seeking the debasement of those who perform the ritual, causing them to commit acts of great evil, in order to facilitate the lowering of the spiritual defences of the people who commit the ritual murder, so that the demonic powers can operate towards & through those people in the way that they intend to act. By causing the occultists to denigrate themselves in this way, they cause them to become vulnerable to the demonic power which those entities possess, enabling those entities to operate on the Earth plane in the ways that they intend to operate, in essence giving them greater power to act than they would otherwise have had. Alex Jones summarises this point in his discussion with Russsell Brand, and I would recommend you watch the interview when it airs on Russell's Rumble page next week, because the whole conversation is fascinating, and touches on some really important points.

Rumble.com - Russell Brand's page

Good read thank you.

Ive just watched this and it gave me food for thought.

www.humancondition.com...

This is pretty good.

Uncle D

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I would like to add how the sacrificing switch from child to Ram was a smite to the horned Caananite god. The Ram represents the burning and sacrifice of the Canaanite god to Abraham’s god.

I’ve heard the argument here on ATS that Molech was the ovens for child sacrifice, they were shaped in the effigy of a bull, while Baal was their god. There seems to be some truth to this.

Abraham supposedly lived 1950 BC.
The Old Testament was written around 400 BC
That's 1500 years of the story being passed down orally.
The chances of it being retold accurately like that are slim.

a reply to: FlyersFan

That's actually incorrect, there are several reasons we can have confidence in the accuracy of the oral transmission of the stories in the Old Testament. I can't go into it right now but I will add more information later on to explain thoroughly. Furthermore the entire Bible was written by prophets & scribes under the influence of the Holy Spirit, which means that there is a direct spiritual thread connecting everything in Scripture to the greater narrative of salvation, again, I will add more later on.

FITO.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
That's actually incorrect, ..

No. It's correct.
Abraham supposedly lived 1950 BC.
The Old Testament was written around 400 BC.
Humans can't even get a story retold orally correctly after a few days
let alone after 1500 years.

The chance of it being 100% accurate is pretty much ZERO.

a reply to: TheLieWeLive
It appears that "Molech" means "King" and "Baal" means "Lord". The worshippers might plausibly have applied both titles to their god- just as we Christians do, in fact.

I'm going to disagree about the sending the daughter into the Lord's service.

35 And when he saw her, he rent his clothes, and said, “Alas, my daughter! you have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me; for I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.”

36 And she said to him, “My father, if you have opened your mouth to the Lord, do to me according to what has gone forth from your mouth, now that the Lord has avenged you on your enemies, on the Ammonites.”

37 And she said to her father, “Let this thing be done for me; let me alone two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my companions.”

38 And he said, “Go.” And he sent her away for two months; and she departed, she and her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39 And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had made. She had never known a man. And it became a custom in Israel

40 that the daughters of Israel went year by year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year.

Why would the whole of the daughters of Israel lament so greatly her leaving to serve the Lord? And a father offering their child to a dedicated service to the Lord would NOT tear their clothing and rue their decision.

Although there are some texts that rely heavily upon interpretation, others are not. I don't think there is any doubt about what happened to Jephthah's daughter.

I believe this is why so many people feel they can't trust religious organizations and/or the bible. I have heard basic texts so twisted and redefined it numbs the brain. With a common excuse of "that's not what God really means". Texts I believed were pretty black and white.


To each his own I guess.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Furthermore the entire Bible was written by prophets & scribes under the influence of the Holy Spirit

There is obvious danger in believing that scripture is written under a "holy spirit". There are parts of the Torah that were influenced by cultural norms of those times. Like the stoning of rebellious children in Deuteronomy 21:18-21. We do not see that as very holy in today's society.

All the prophets saw God through the stained lens of their mind. Undoubtedly, some prophets had a clearer lens than others. But none were absolutely clear. Which is why the prophets wrote "You cannot see My face". Our limited minds are incapable of comprehending his infiniteness of being.

a reply to: glend

Even though I disagree that the fact of Holy Spirit influence is, to your mind, a bad thing, actually you do make a good point. In the Book of 1 Corinthians 14: 32, it is written as follows:

Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit...

This idea that the spirit of the prophets is subject to self-control seems to indicate that the prophet utilising his or her spiritual gift for accurate prophetic utterance - which is the direct control of the spoken/written Word by the LORD's Spirit - are able to direct the flow of that utterance towards subjects that are within their mind at the time they are prophesying.

So a prophet will direct his or her gifting towards a subject that is on their heart at the time they are prophesying, and the message they impart will basically be God's directive concerning that particular subject, intended for understanding of a particular time or times of application. Then the inclusion of certain prophetic writings into the Biblical corpus can be seen as a holy editorialising on the part of whomever is following the Lord's direction for that editorialising (for example, Moses), such that they are directly inspired as to which books to include in which particular order. And so even though every prophet is able to prevaricate on any given subject under the Sun, the end result will be a work that will either be included in the Bible or not included, depending on the overall editing process under inspiration.

Other works not included in the Bible could be seen as apocryphal for example, or may have been ritually discarded once it was seen that they were not to be included in the masterwork that the Bible represents.

But I strongly disagree that it is somehow 'dangerous' for us to accept that written works in the Bible were written under the direction of God's Holy Spirit. The facts that are revealed concerning God's character, ultimately, are such that He is trustworthy, just, compassionate, righteous, holy, gracious, even humble of heart when lowering Himself in order to communicate with Humanity.

Sure, some of the things that the prophets wrote concerning spiritual laws when Israel was being formed, may seem harsh by today's standards, but it is CRUCIAL to note that these were harsh times, when kings were absolutists who could murder people on a whim for no reason whatsoever, and every member of society would see it as being 'just' because the order came from the king. Kings would set themselves up as literal 'gods', erecting statues of themselves which the people were forced to worship or else die a gruesome death, as in the Biblical story of the prophet Daniel. Nations would live according to demonic cults led by black magic priesthoods that demanded infant human sacrifice in fire as a rite of power or passage, and nobody batted an eyelid.

When God was forming the nation of Israel, He was setting standards of conduct which were strictly righteous & holy, strictly controlling behaviours, setting the nation apart as an example to the other nations of the world that there was indeed a true God of Real & Holy Power, who was concerned with Justice, Mercy & Humility, and not simply OCCULT POWER & domination through brutal sacrificial offering of human children, which was a widespread practice as I have stated within the OP.

Gradually, God moved the peoples of the region away from human sacrifice, away from idolatry & demonic worship, towards a true practice of righteous, holy worship & reverence of the true God who did NOT require human sacrifice. Indeed, the sacrifice of Christ, the noblest of all acts, God lowering Himself, becoming mortal, taking the sin of the world upon His shoulders, dying in order to set free those who were unable to free themselves, is almost a parody of that original demonic idolatry which demanded human infant sacrifice, God is mocking the Devil by mirroring the human sacrifice which is entirely UNNECESSARY for the true God, who NEVER desired human sacrifice, taking that evil ritual & making something wondrous & ultimately beautiful, the highest form of righteousness that could ever be possible. The sacrifice of Christ undoes all of the Devil's works, and makes it plain that this is one sacrifice, for all peoples, for all time, and no human sacrifice will ever be required ever again.

Surely that much is obvious, when viewed against the broad sweep of history represented by the formation & separation of Israel, the move to animal sacrifice, then to divine sacrifice of the Messiah, then to the living sacrifice of the Christian saints (of personal holiness instead of licentiousness & hedonism).

That is an obvious pattern moving away from demonic idolatry & human sacrifice (for which God almost entirely destroyed Mankind in the flood of the Genesis time) towards personal holiness as members of a righteous community (the universal Church) under the Lordship of the Messiah who once for all time took away the need for further sacrifice, and redeemed from sin all who would put their trust in Him.

Hopefully that comes through clearly from what I have written. There is nothing wrong with Holy Spirit inspiration, as it leads us on a quest towards personal holiness & the ending of sinfulness in the lives of those who commit to God's ways.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

This idea that the spirit of the prophets is subject to self-control seems to indicate that the prophet utilising his or her spiritual gift for accurate prophetic utterance - which is the direct control of the spoken/written Word by the LORD's Spirit - are able to direct the flow of that utterance towards subjects that are within their mind at the time they are prophesying.

No, the holy spirit does not speak (John 16:13). The holy spirit cleanses the mind. Breaking down the barrier that exists between our limited segmented ego-mind and that of God (aka ALL).

The cleansing process can take months or even years, if it ever completes at all. So we cannot be certain if the words of prophets are through an un-cleansed lens or not. We need seek the truth from the ultimate source. That being the temple within.

At the beginning the cleansing process is heard as a wind. When it completes its the sound of thunder (Exodus 19:16–20).

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Something that cropped up in a discussion between Russell Brand & Alex Jones...

And you lost me.

Joking aside, the Bible is fairly screwed up on the sacrifice thing. What's cool about it, is it's one of the few books in which taboo dramatically changed within the composition timeframe.

By the time of Jesus he was the sacrifice and your reverence (need to commit sacrifice) was in drinking his blood wine and eating his body crackers.

Hebrews 10:4
States that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, while Jesus's once-for-all offering does

But rewind the clock before folks turned on paganism, and it all gulls and goats. Daily offerings an obvious Polytheism holdover. Christ as the All-purpose sacrifice was a leap in collective consciousness against a need to sacrifice an appeasement lamb every morning.

With Abraham my taken parable is, "doing things for superstitions sake at the expense of empathy is bad." Like killing a child for divine appeasement.

Over time it went from God demanding daily spilled blood sacrifice to God killed his son to cover that for everyone. No more mindless appeasement slaughters.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Sacrifice your child in the name of God to prove your loyalty.

Not exactly the most benevolent of requests test or otherwise.

I think i know what such a request would teach.

Point of fact also in this day of age we would lock people up for requesting such a horrible act of depravity.

Sounds like Schizophrenia to me.

Source : am Schizophrenic.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
Sounds like Schizophrenia to me..

IF it's a true story ... yeah. It does.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Well, it all boils down to the oral tradition and the veracity of scribes and how one choooses to interpret such works.

There are some hotly contested works ascribing the majority of things to undiagnosed mental illnesses in such traditions, at a time where folks afflicted with various conditions were used and abused by TPTB as a means of crowd control.

SSDD.