Modern Mind Control

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: whereislogic

If you personally belive there is ample evidence to prove MKUltra is true, then for you it is. I know quite a few people who believe there is more than enough evidence to prove it's not true. Personal beliefs are funny like that.

Neither talking in circles is nor reduncy is my forte, so I cede the floor to you.

And yet even the controlled Wikipedia regards this project as true

en.wikipedia.org...

Project MKUltra was an illegal human experiments program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used during interrogations to weaken people and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture. It began in 1953 and was halted in 1973. MKUltra used numerous methods to manipulate its subjects' mental states and brain functions, such as the covert administration of high doses of psychoactive drugs (especially '___') and other chemicals without the subjects' consent, electroshocks, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, and other forms of torture.

Who knows how far the intelligence agencies have gone beyond MK-Ultra and the methods used to extract information or the types of drugs used.

a reply to: AllisVibration

Do you have anything substantive to contribute? If not why bother?

Do you?

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we should always remain open to questioning our beliefs and reevaluating them as necessary

Which is exactly what I've been saying, yet it's only substantive when you say it?

Thanks for your contribution.

a reply to: nugget1

Sorry my apologies I took the thing you said about “there’s proof it’s true and there’s proof it’s a lie” out of context, (obviously both can’t be correct) I then read another posters comment and thought you were being unkind.

I do see where you are coming from now having reread your post.

As for being substantive I am substance itself.

a reply to: AllisVibration

No harm, no foul.

I do see where you are coming from now having reread your post.

No, I was perfecting my snarky skills. It happens when people feel the need to respond to me with personal insults.

a reply to: whereislogic

Well, if nothing else, I think you've clearly illustrated a line which needs to be drawn in a discussion like this. That line is the distinction between action and reaction. In the case of mind control and/or people committing acts of violence you potentially have people who consciously and intentionally 'cause' someone to commit such an act, and you have people who commit such an act as a response to perceived social and emotional pressure without any intent. Those are two different things.

We can find countless examples of the latter, but only very isolated and provable examples of the former. To go much further, we also have to define the line which separates normal from 'crazy' or mentally deficient/defective. Sadly, this can be a pretty broad line today with some large questionable grey boundaries on either side of it. Rather than try to define that line exactly here, let's just say hypothetically for the purposes of discussion (here) that the line is drawn at murdering another arbitrary individual. (I say this mainly because this has been a recurring theme in this thread). On the one hand we have a person who has some sort of psychological break and plows into a group of people on the street with a vehicle (not accidentally, mind you). And, on the other hand, we have a 'Manchurian Candidate' (as we will call him) who has been programmed with the specific intent of conducting a specific assassination at a specific time/place. These are two wildly different scenarios, and to draw parallels between them is, I think, a grave mistake. One person is crazy (by our hypothetical definition), and the other person, while clearly acting crazily, is really only conditioned to act out a response.

I've done a fair amount of research over the years into Sidney Gottlieb, one of the principle masterminds behind MKULTRA. My research wasn't about MKULTRA so much as it was an effort to get inside Gottlieb's head, to understand the person and his motivations. It was a research project with a distinctly different purpose, but Gottlieb was the perfect starting point for a variety of reasons. To expound on that project goes beyond the scope of this thread, but suffice it to say that people whom are given no boundaries will get up to all sorts of evil if supplied with money and no oversight. In short...crazy makes more crazy.

MKULTRA was a very real program. And, for those denying it, I strongly recommend some further reading on the subject. However, despite all the dark and evil experiments conducted under the MKULTRA program, it wasn't particularly successful at creating a real life 'Manchurian Candidate' (i.e. a normal individual who could be commanded to act out at a later date based on some drug induced previous instruction). Beyond that, the actual program and its leadership spiraled downward into madness (as expected). On a personal note, I personally believe that Gottlieb should have been tried, convicted and subsequently executed for his experiments, but that trial would have ensnared a whole lot of other people too (perfectly fine by me). But I digress.

In summary, sane people will do crazy things if they are pushed to the edge of sanity through chemical or other stimulus. Crazy people, on the other hand, will do crazy things simply by being exposed to the everyday travails of life.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Hmm, I am reminded of the phrase “it’s no definition of sanity, to be well adjusted to an insane world”

From an Alien perspective they could look at all humans as crazy, and I wouldn’t blame them. Sure we have laws and rights, but it’s only relatively recently we have acquired those. We are in a constant power struggle, with entire nations willing to blow the crap out of each other over resources or hatred. Which brings up what is the difference between individual psychosis and mass psychosis? We punish the individual who commits violence, and give medals and honours to those who do the same in the name of their cause and country…

As I have pointed out in another thread the majority of people we recognise as insane/mentally ill are not remotely violent. So we can’t just dismiss these things as being an issue of the “crazies”

The working class or poor have been exploited since the foundation of civilisation, up until recently in Edwardian Britain, then the most powerful and richest country in the world, children as young as 10 were working 12-16 shifts in cotton mills and factories, if they were lucky enough not to get maimed in the process they would most likely end up deaf because of the noise of the machines.

Today in Africa children are similarly exploited to work in mines for the toxic rare earth minerals needed in modern batteries, so the well off and environmentally conscious Tesla drivers can feel good about saving the earth…

Then we have cults that use NLP techniques and other psychological methods to condition their recruits into obedient unquestioning followers. Are these so much different from the dominant religions of the world? Or is it only because they have been around for so long and have such numbers of followers that they get a pass?

Then we have our glorious leaders, politicians and bureaucrats, they love nothing more than breaking promises, taking bribes and spending public on the business interests of their cronies.

So in summary human beings are so brainwashed they readily except wherever they see it, it’s only the out of ordinary incidents and irregular behaviour that draws our attention.. so the masses can shout look a lunatic, in complete ignorance of their own brand of conditioned crazy.

originally posted by: Dreftenq
Well said and may I add there could be more to the mind manipulation industry that hasn't come out. Control of the mind is an art and without it the system we know wouldn't exist and it's unlikely religions and political systems would survive or create in the first place the way we know them.

Hmmm...I'm not sure it's wise to stuff every control system under the mind control blanket and it is definately not wise to be unaware that the vast majority of "mind control" requires the subject deciding, on one level or another, to co-operate.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
In summary, sane people will do crazy things if they are pushed to the edge of sanity through chemical or other stimulus. Crazy people, on the other hand, will do crazy things simply by being exposed to the everyday travails of life.

And ofcourse, the notable element of the MKUltra programs are that the vast majority of the subjects of the experiments were already psychiatric patients or prisoners on psych wings or children in "special" schools. The rest, whether Korean POWs, South American political "dissidents" or their own military personnel, were the secondary testing grounds for what they had learnt from torturing those they considered too disposable for anyone to ask questions about. And they weren't too far wrong in that. No mind control necessary, that's just working with the society you've got.

Watch the mainstream news every day for a few times a day and eat your burger and pizza. Mind and body control!!!

Mind and body destruction.

Modern mind control is rather simple.

With the advent of Television, we began to get our information from screens.

Now we have the internet, and cell phone is our pocket.

People are hyptonized by these devices, some to the point that they live in a fictionalized reality, prefering to believe what the screen says instead of focusing on whats happening in the real world right if front of their own eyes.

Not everyone is affected the same way, but trends and fads spread like wildfire, and the next thing you know large swath of the population are all exhibiting the same types of behaviors and ideologies because they're all consuming the same garbage.

It's not as "exciting" as Manchurian Canidates, but it's a lot more cost effective and easier to control large demographics.

Humans are simple creatures, and folks who have dedicated their lives to exploiting the masses know how to keep the majority occupied with trivial concerns that not only turn a tidy profit, and lead the majority around by the nose rings.

a reply to: BrucellaOrchitis

The point you made about cooperation of the subject. This can be generalised and we can argue nothing happens if the subject doesn't cooperate..

But is this part of the mind control techniques through deception and persuasion which let subjects cooperate and on many occasions believe they have free will to decide.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
Not everyone is affected the same way, but trends and fads spread like wildfire, and the next thing you know large swath of the population are all exhibiting the same types of behaviors and ideologies because they're all consuming the same garbage.

North Korea, probably, for sure. You and I though, and most of us here on ATS, if not all - there is quite a wide variety of garbage out there to choose from. Television is most definately a means of influence, just as the radio was before it, and the pulpit or even amphitheatre before that, but few of us, like the Germans under Nazism, are obligated by law to partake. We choose what we want to watch and what we don't want to watch. Of course, beside the internet, computing has brought us algorithms which seek, at various levels, to influence our choices, but again, we have the ability to over-ride those "predictions" or accept that actually it did kind of get what we were in the mood for this evening.

originally posted by: GENERAL EYES
It's not as "exciting" as Manchurian Canidates, but it's a lot more cost effective and easier to control large demographics.

Reality is seldom quite as exciting as myths and that is all the Manchurian Candidate is, a myth. The things about myths though is, more often than not, they are control systems. The myth of the Manchurian Candidate was able, for quite a while, to control the narrative that enabled MKULTRA to perpetuate it's illegal experiments and to shield it from prying eyes. The Soviets didn't brainwash the US POWs held by the North Koreans. The rumours of drugging and lost time while the POWs were transitted through Manchuria were no more than rumours, never substantiated. Probably just a red herring fed to the press to stave off their appetite for the real story. The real story was that no one had had to brainwash or torture or even mistreat the POWs into lying about the US's use of biological weapons, it was the simple truth and they had told it as it was. The North Koreans knew it, the POWs knew it and the US militaries knew it - the American public and it's governance - not so much.

The myth of the Manchurian Candidate, if anything, enabled them to go either further with even less oversight because of the panic that was created by the idea of these all American boys could be "brainwashed" into believing that the USA could ever do anything so inhumane as use biological weapons.

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

Humans are simple creatures, and folks who have dedicated their lives to exploiting the masses know how to keep the majority occupied with trivial concerns that not only turn a tidy profit, and lead the majority around by the nose rings.

What I find astonishing is the cult like responses from members that claim to "deny Ignorance"....and then use a confirmation biased publication/site to back up their political/religious commentary...... At least that's better than an adolescent meme that seems to have become more popular than an authored response.

As alluded to before, but I wanted to emphasize it a bit more now:

Negative paintjobs (including character assassination) were a big component of the Stasi's Zersetzung campaigns (falling under the term "social undermining").

You paint something negative on the target (either about their character or their actions), and if you do that well and can generate a negative opinion in others about the target, you increase your pool of potential future "collaborators" (still quoting that term from the Stasi's Zersutzung's page on wikipedia, not sure if it's a term I would have chosen, see next sentence). In any case, you can accomplish the target to be seen and consequently treated by others in the way you want the target to be seen and treated (turning these others into "pawns" in this manipulation game, or "puppets" if you want to point out that those pulling the strings are the puppeteers, the most proficient manipulators). Discrediting the target is also part of the same manipulation game, so that the endresult is:

The most insidious aspect of Zersetzung is that its victims are almost invariably not believed.

And often ignored (or at least it's not getting through the barrier in the minds of others; even trying to fit what the target might say or do into the negative paintjobs a person might have been exposed to. By the way, popular influential entertainers are very useful "collaborators" or pawns in painting negative pictures of specific targets, because of the sway they hold over people, in particular their fans; they can also be useful in generating hatred, disdain, scoff, ridicule and for discrediting purposes. The same can be said of other authoritive or influential people, including community leaders or those with a high standing in the community as people contributing to it).

Source: Zersetzung - Wikipedia
A little more:

The various collaborators (Partner des operativen Zusammenwirkens) included branches of regional government, university and professional management, housing administrative bodies, the Sparkasse public savings bank, and in some cases head physicians.

I.e. "authoritive or influential people, including community leaders or those with a high standing in the community as people contributing to it." Well, my description includes a bit more than just the ones listed by wikipedia there.

The Stasi collaborated with the secret services of other Eastern Bloc countries to implement Zersetzung. One such example was the Polish secret services co-operating against branches of the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation in the early 1960s,[34] which would come to be known[35] as "innere Zersetzung"[36] ...

Ooh, the bigger picture (lost in the fineprint), 1 Peter 4:4,5:

They are puzzled that you do not continue running with them in the same decadent course of debauchery, so they speak abusively of you. But these people will render an account to the one who is ready to judge those living and those dead. (I think it's talking about those spiritually dead, given what it says in the next verse)

2 Peter 2:2,3:

Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct,* [Or “their acts of shameless conduct.”] and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping.

Romans 1:18-20:

For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; . . .

originally posted by: whereislogic
...
Source: Zersetzung - Wikipedia
...

The Stasi collaborated with the secret services of other Eastern Bloc countries to implement Zersetzung. One such example was the Polish secret services co-operating against branches of the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation in the early 1960s,[34] which would come to be known[35] as "innere Zersetzung"[36] ...

...

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

Jesus also said: “These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me also hates my Father. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have both seen me and hated me as well as my Father. But this happened in order to fulfill the word written in their Law: ‘They hated me without cause.’” (John 15:17-25)

Bringing us back to the line I bolded before from the Zersetzung's page:

People were commonly targeted on a pre-emptive and preventive basis, to limit or stop activities of dissent that they may have gone on to perform, and not on the basis of crimes they had actually committed.

“without cause”. If we bring this into the bigger picture, the "activities of dissent" that are desired to be limited or stopped would be dissent against the agenda of "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31). If you would be able to listen (see Matt 13:13-15, John 8:42-47 or 2 Tim 4:3,4 why that may not be the case), by now you should know who this is and who Jesus was referring to (see also Rev 12:9; and who is working for him, Eph 4:14; 1 Tim 4:1,2 and earlier quoted 2 Cor 10:3-5).