You want to understand Modern Air & Naval Warfare?

Sea state has no effect on your speed, or the enviroment when you are doing your ASW work. Nor does it prevent you from launching aircraft or missiles.

Sea State has a HUGE affect on ASW work, it reduces your passive systems next to nothing, even then i suppose you could use a towed array, but you have to be careful that the up down moment doesn't rip if of the ship.

In hi seas you can't launch your ASW aircraft, aka helicopters, sure... you might be able to launch it, but recovery would be a flat zero, it also reduces the ability to launch missiles as if you are launching you missile and the ship pitches down that missile will impact the water, not to far from your hull. Sea State has a HUGE effetc on ASW work.

- Phil

Originally posted by edsinger
Well I guess so......Just becuase I havent flown the good old 14, doesnt mean that I know that Phoenix's are not for Mig21's, if they were why did the Libyans get Sparrow's? And I would argue that a Mig21 is just as nimble as a Mig23.

Well?

Because:
1. The Tomcats in question were not loaded with Phoenixs
2. The engagement ranges were all done within visual ranges.

Originally posted by COOL HANDSea state has no effect on your speed, or the enviroment when you are doing your ASW work. Nor does it prevent you from launching aircraft or missiles.

Well you are correct there and Fleet Command does?

Not that I remember, but I know in DW your speed is affected by sea state. In addition, you also loose speed in your turns depending on how much rudder angle you use. Does any Harpoon version take that into account?

Well wouldn't we both love to play with the Database that the Aussies are using for the sim

Really if it has been a while since you played it, I would think it would be worth a re-look on your part. A whole bunch of the game has been redone, it even has 'nukes' now. You seem to be the type that would put it to good use. Maybe when Multiplayer comes out we can go around.......

No, it is not worth a re-look on my part. Those games were good, but they cannot compare to what the guys at Sonalysts are putting out.

As far as a MP game, DW already has that in it. Did you not happen to notice that?

I tried Fleet Command for about a week. I liked the Aegis symbology displays, but just couldn't get into the game. I guess I'm spoiled.

When I feel like shooting some SM-2's or popping off some 5" rounds I play on the real thing. I'm a defense contractor for the Aegis Weapon System and get to use the real equipment at work every day (simulated ordinance and hostiles, of course )

Originally posted by gooseuk
Sea State has a HUGE affect on ASW work, it reduces your passive systems next to nothing, even then i suppose you could use a towed array, but you have to be careful that the up down moment doesn't rip if of the ship.

I realize that, it was just that it was not taken into effect in the Harpoon games.

In hi seas you can't launch your ASW aircraft, aka helicopters, sure... you might be able to launch it, but recovery would be a flat zero, it also reduces the ability to launch missiles as if you are launching you missile and the ship pitches down that missile will impact the water, not to far from your hull. Sea State has a HUGE effetc on ASW work.

- Phil

If you have RAST gear you would be surprised at the sea states that you can operate helos in.

[edit on 16/4/05 by COOL HAND]

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Because:
1. The Tomcats in question were not loaded with Phoenixs
2. The engagement ranges were all done within visual ranges.

Very good. ROE... you do know then.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
Not that I remember, but I know in DW your speed is affected by sea state. In addition, you also loose speed in your turns depending on how much rudder angle you use. Does any Harpoon version take that into account?

No I do not think it does, but it cant control down to a gnats ass like that. DW lets you take control of a 'piece' of equipment, not a Fleet. These are to different products altogether.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
No, it is not worth a re-look on my part. Those games were good, but they cannot compare to what the guys at Sonalysts are putting out.

Well I cant argue with the quality of what Sonalsts have done but they are 2 different markets, If they were to do a "Fleet Command II" then I would listen. If I wanted to control a Seawolf, 688, or P-3 then I would look more seriously at DW, its a fine game for sure. If Harpoon is not your taste then fine, no sweat.

Originally posted by COOL HANDAs far as a MP game, DW already has that in it. Did you not happen to notice that?

Again, its s different game, MP has not been a harpoon option since the Harpoon Online Fiasco a while back, it soon will be though.

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTime

When I feel like shooting some SM-2's or popping off some 5" rounds I play on the real thing. I'm a defense contractor for the Aegis Weapon System and get to use the real equipment at work every day (simulated ordinance and hostiles, of course

)

So would that be the 5" 54 ?

How about the AGS 155mm?

Originally posted by COOL HANDIf you have RAST gear you would be surprised at the sea states that you can operate helos in.

As I have always said Navy Pilots have bigger balls, I know of what you speak and its gutsy as hell but not in 25' swells they dont.

Originally posted by edsinger
Very good. ROE... you do know then.

What are you talking about? ROEs are a entirely different matter. If the Tomcats would have had 54's onboard then the ROEs would have allowed them to shoot at them from outside visual range.

No I do not think it does, but it cant control down to a gnats ass like that. DW lets you take control of a 'piece' of equipment, not a Fleet. These are to different products altogether.

Then by your own admission you are saying that it is not a very realistic simulator. If you cannot control things down to that level, then you are playing in fantasy land at not the real world.

Well I cant argue with the quality of what Sonalsts have done but they are 2 different markets, If they were to do a "Fleet Command II" then I would listen. If I wanted to control a Seawolf, 688, or P-3 then I would look more seriously at DW, its a fine game for sure. If Harpoon is not your taste then fine, no sweat.

I never said it was not my taste. You are the one who is touting it as a very realistic simulator, and I am trying to show that it is not. I think that if it was the Navy would have chosen it as a training tool. As it was they did not. They probably saw all of its faults and determined that it was not useful because it does not deal in real world capabilities/limitations.

Originally posted by COOL HANDAs far as a MP game, DW already has that in it. Did you not happen to notice that?

Again, its s different game, MP has not been a harpoon option since the Harpoon Online Fiasco a while back, it soon will be though.

But who would want to play it? I would not, unless they fixed all the faults and offered to host various levels of experience.

Originally posted by COOL HANDThen by your own admission you are saying that it is not a very realistic simulator. If you cannot control things down to that level, then you are playing in fantasy land at not the real world.

What you are saying or implying doesnt exist in the civilian world. Oh it is fine enough to say simulate an attack on say an Iranian Nuclear reactor site. DW can not model the big picture like a harpoon can. You are comparing apples to oranges and you yourself said Fleet Command was much more accurate which is not the case. Fleet Command is the only one that can be compared to Harpoon in the 'type' sort of way.

I mean Seawolf was beaten by 688I which was then beaten by Sub Command which was then beaten by Dangerous Waters.......

And yet Harpoon serves a different purpose is all.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I never said it was not my taste. You are the one who is touting it as a very realistic simulator, and I am trying to show that it is not. I think that if it was the Navy would have chosen it as a training tool. As it was they did not. They probably saw all of its faults and determined that it was not useful because it does not deal in real world capabilities/limitations.

The Navy did not choose it for reasons other than realism, Many do still use it and the Harpoon Pro is a 'military only' product.

Did Dangerous Waters have to get permission to be exported?


12/4/2003: We learned that our products were exportable as long as they were not used for "military purposes." However, we were asked to file a classification request with the US Dept of State on H3 Pro or any of the products used for "military purposes". We are complying with this request and expect to have our paperwork wrapped up soon.

3/24/2004: We received word that the US State Department had decided not to classify us as a "munitions" and deferred to the US Department of Commerce to classify the Pro version of Harpoon for export to military users.

5/01/2004: The Department of Commerce has given us clarification as to what and where we can export. Some countries have more restrictions.
EXPORT Information

Originally posted by COOL HANDBut who would want to play it? I would not, unless they fixed all the faults and offered to host various levels of experience.

Thats fine - Play DW if that is your cup of tea. I for one will be one playing it and there will many many others, and I will make you a bet, in 5 years Dangerous Waters will be gone the same as 688I is now, and yet Harpoon will still be around.

Nice talking with ya! We just like different things.

Originally posted by edsinger
And yet Harpoon serves a different purpose is all.

What purpose does it serve other than entertainment?

The Navy did not choose it for reasons other than realism, Many do still use it and the Harpoon Pro is a 'military only' product.

That is a bunch of crap. Harpoon was found to be insuffiecent as a training tool by both NSWC and NUWC. They cited numerous reasons for not choosing it. At the same time they determined that Fleet Command was a better tool to use if the purpose was to train people.

Did Dangerous Waters have to get permission to be exported?

No, why would it? The game contains nothing classified. For that matter neither does Harpoon. Sounds to me like they are using that fact as a ploy to lure people into thinking it is a quality simulator of what the Navy can do.

Thats fine - Play DW if that is your cup of tea. I for one will be one playing it and there will many many others, and I will make you a bet, in 5 years Dangerous Waters will be gone the same as 688I is now, and yet Harpoon will still be around.

Nice talking with ya! We just like different things.

How about a counter bet? I bet in five years, Sonalysts will have more ex-Navy people working with and for them than the guys who make Harpoon.

Anytime you want to go against me in DW just say when.

Good talking with you to. Always like to see fellow Navy folks on the board.

Originally posted by COOL HANDWhat purpose does it serve other than entertainment?

There are many uses for it, just dig a little.

Originally posted by COOL HANDNo, why would it? The game contains nothing classified. For that matter neither does Harpoon. Sounds to me like they are using that fact as a ploy to lure people into thinking it is a quality simulator of what the Navy can do.

Well what the 'good' database has is why, and that is what is classified but you and I cant see it.

Originally posted by COOL HANDHow about a counter bet? I bet in five years, Sonalysts will have more ex-Navy people working with and for them than the guys who make Harpoon.

Well that could very well be true.....

Originally posted by COOL HANDGood talking with you to. Always like to see fellow Navy folks on the board.

Same here!

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTime

When I feel like shooting some SM-2's or popping off some 5" rounds I play on the real thing. I'm a defense contractor for the Aegis Weapon System and get to use the real equipment at work every day (simulated ordinance and hostiles, of course

)

So would that be the 5" 54 ?

How about the AGS 155mm?

Mk 160 Mod 6 or Mk 160 mod 8. We also have the Mk86, but that's old hat!

The AGS is still early in it's development but is coming soon...

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTimeThe AGS is still early in it's development but is coming soon...

Yeah I know and its a big one!

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTime

Originally posted by edsinger

How about the AGS 155mm?

The AGS is still early in it's development but is coming soon...

Well it would seem that the DDX might be scaled back and the CGX procured 10 years early, talking like 4-6 DDX's only as prove out boats.


AGS has already been fired and somewhat tested, could be brought on quickly if needed.

The thoughts of a 100 Mile gun are awesome.

Just noticed this.

Originally posted by edsinger
These missiles are for Backfires and Cruise Missiles, not highly agile tactical aircraft like a Mig 21.

Please take a look at all the AIM-54 kills by F-14s by IRIAF during Iran-Iraq war. Scores of MiG-21s, MiG-25s, etc shot down.
www.acig.org...

Originally posted by Taishyou
Just noticed this.

Originally posted by edsinger
These missiles are for Backfires and Cruise Missiles, not highly agile tactical aircraft like a Mig 21.

Please take a look at all the AIM-54 kills by F-14s by IRIAF during Iran-Iraq war. Scores of MiG-21s, MiG-25s, etc shot down.
www.acig.org...

Well I guess I am wrong then, I really didn't think the AIM54 could hit maneuverable targets like that. I wonder what the % of Shots/kills was.

Well it would seem that Harpoon Multiplayer has been released and is now available. I have purchased mine......I have waited so long for this.



Armchair Admirals unite...


Harpoon 3 Advanced Naval Warfare by Matrix