The I.R.S. and sec. 861

This is IMO a really good Flash animatino video explaining the governments refusal to answer the question about taxes and section 861. Most American asking this are not cheating or protesting, they just want to know what the law really states about what taxes you are required to pay. It's long but worth watching.

www.stopthelie.com...

Whats sec 861 and who's asking about it? I've never heard of this issue before.

Without looking at it yet (slow dialup connection) I think it's an old section of law that says paying federal tax is voluntary.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Whats sec 861 and who's asking about it? I've never heard of this issue before.

If you watch the video it will explain what sec 861 is and who's talking about it. It's too complex and complicated for me to explain it myself but basically sec 861 says only under certain circumstances are you required to pay income tax. Here are other links related to the same issue and about taxes in general.

www.taxableincome.net...

givemeliberty.org...

www.originalintent.org...

I can't believe this scam is still out there. The Feds have been prosecuting the promoters of the 861 scheme and now are turning their attention to the poor people who bought into it. Not only are they out the money they paid to learn this "secret" but now will get hit with back taxes, interest and civil penaltes.

NEW YORK -- The widely promoted claim that Americans are not required to pay income taxes on their wages is false, a federal judge has ruled in ordering one of its leading proponents to stop inciting tax evasion.

The judge, Christopher Conner, on Friday ordered the proponent, Thurston Paul Bell of Hanover, Pa., to post the court's order at his Web site (www.nite.org). Bell also was ordered to remove all language promoting the claim, known as the "861 position" after a section of the tax code, that only those working for foreign-owned companies owe taxes on their wages.

Bell must turn over to the Justice Department copies of his clients' tax returns, notify them that their returns were false and inform them that in addition to owing taxes they may face penalties for filing frivolous returns. Any refunds they obtained were erroneous, Conner said, and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) may take them back.

*snip*

Conner, of the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania, ruled that the 861 position is nonsense. At least a dozen other courts have taken the same position, but that has not stopped people from paying at least $ 1,000 to Bell and others who claim they have found a way to legally stop paying taxes.

Connor noted that Bell conceded that Section 861 specified that wages earned in the United States were taxable.

Bell said, however, that regulations implementing the law exempted wages paid by domestic companies from being taxed. Connor said that false claim "rests purely on semantics and takes the regulations under Section 861 out of context." Judicial accountability

B.

Wow, people can be so stupid. If the "loophole" or position 861 were actually ruled legal, what makes people think that the government wouldn't just change the law as soon as people started benefiting from it?

The government is going to make you pay your taxes. At least with death, you only have to go through it once.

Actually, if you're more interested in finding out more about these tax issues, check out We The People Foundation. You can also learn more about how the tax laws are stated & how the government is just simply refusing to answer those questions with anything but intimidation tactics.

I had to add this here, it's not about sec 861, but gives you another look at the IRS

Nondenial Denial: IRS Denies Withholding Documents It Refuses to Release

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Internal Revenue Service recently refused to provide two university researchers with records requested under the Freedom of Information while simultaneously asserting, "We are not denying the release" of the documents.

I dint get to hear the whole thing, but its like mrmulder pointed out, it regards basically, the definition of taxable income. A little loopdyloop the IRS doesn't want you to see. It was saying that the taxable income is defined as on money made by overseas commerce and from foreigners making money here in the US. The rest should be governed by the individual states. I'm no expert, but what I saw and read seems pretty clear. And that would make sense - if it has to do with foreign made money - its Federal gov. jurisdiction; otherwise, it's up to the states to regulate.

I wish we could get back to that. The gov.'s got too much power over the states. And man, if I got in my hand what the fed. gov. takes off my earnings, I'd be doing a helluva lot better.

They call it "income tax" but it's mostly a "payroll tax." Note the totally different taxes on "capital gains" and also note the discussion about not taxing dividends at all, nor taxing someone who inherits a half-billion $. Why, that would be mean to the dead people. (And a great boon to the one who inherits the half-billion $ but, see, it's not really "income"...)

[edit on 4/18/2005 by Noumenon]

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
check out We The People Foundation. You can also learn more about how the tax laws are stated & how the government is just simply refusing to answer those questions with anything but intimidation tactics.

Gee, I wonder if the mainstream media (like 60 minutes) actually cornered the IRS on this and pressed them with these questions, what would they say? Would enuff people become stirred up to make noise about it? And then what?

The tax system in this country is screwed up. The highest earners can afford to pay lawyers and accountants to hide their monies and then ya got the folks on the low end struggling to survive paycheck to paycheck at best and they wind up having to pay. For them to have to pay more at tax time is just wrong.

Just as an update, go back to the website that I linked earlier & look up the news articles concerning Joe Banister & the Schultz vs IRS trial...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
I wish we could get back to that. The gov.'s got too much power over the states. And man, if I got in my hand what the fed. gov. takes off my earnings, I'd be doing a helluva lot better.

Or, maybe not.
If the fed did it's real job, we'd be relying on our states to do what the fed now does.
So, I have a bad feeling the tax burden would remain to some extent, but it would be sent to your state capitol.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
So, I have a bad feeling the tax burden would remain to some extent, but it would be sent to your state capitol.

Which would benefit your State & the citizens which live in it. Federal Taxes wind up going to the Federal Reserve Bank, which is not Federal, Reserves nothing & doesn't put that money back into the nation for improvment...It goes back into the nation for the sole purpose of creating more debt to the Bank.

I came across an American who told me that only people who live in D.C. are elected officials, sell alchol, sell pistols and sell Cocaine&Morphine to hospitals, and people living in the Virgin Islands, are required to pay to the IRS, here's a site he gave me, www.imfdecoder.com...