What does freedom mean?

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: SprocketUK

May I reply again? You DO have much still...you're a valuable piece of humanity. Understand you're special, different, needed by others...because you really really are.

I wrote a song once that seems to fit called: "Find your Heaven in the sky"..meaning to look up: stay up there long enuff to look down and see yourself as an equal part of the total. Helped me....

God Bless. Jesus Saves...or whatever God you pray to.

Well that was nice, so thanks

originally posted by: ketsuko
Freedom to do what I want so long as I don't hurt someone ...

That seems really simple, but ...

Let's examine this from the perspective of the trans debate. To a transperson who has not done anything to change their outward appearance and only claims to mentally be the gender they say they are (biological man who feels like a woman), they aren't technically hurting anyone when they come into a women's crisis center. After all, we're all girls together, right?

But what about from the perspective of the women in that center? How do they feel about it? They see a man coming into their safe space when they've just suffered a massive psychological and physical hurt at the hands of a man. That's continuing mental trauma.

Is that transperson doing no harm? But this is what activists are demanding, and they've vandalized places like this.

It shows that one person's definition of "do no harm" necessarily does not match another person's. So that idea, while neat, isn't sufficient.

Qualifying a statement takes the freedom away really doesnt it?
You might as well say "Do what you like until someone bigger and stronger stops you"

Thats not real freedom.

Real freedom is understanding the consequences of what you are doing and accepting them as the price of doing what you want to do.

a reply to: SprocketUK

a reply to: SprocketUK

I'd say it's the or a difference between liberty and freedom.

Freedom is the removal or absence of oppression or restraint that prevents you from being at liberty.

Liberty is the ability to see the choices set before you and to freely make them, even if you choose not to because no responsible person would. Some people in this thread sneer at that thought and call it a lack of freedom. In a sense, they might be right, but that level of freedom invites the attempts of others to restrain it for the sake of society in general. It tends to be be disruptive at the least and destructive at its worst.

I'd rather stare into the abyss and be strong enough to choose to walk away than have some outside force impose itself between me and chaos. I like knowing I'm big enough not to walk there.

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: ITSALIVE
You really want to know? You might not like it, but freedom is the idea given by those with power to those without, in exchange for giving them more power. Freedom is the theft of your own power which is willingly handed over to someone else.

Freedom is double speak for servitude.

a reply to: greendust

I think you entirely missed the point of the Bill of Rights and why we fought a Revolution.

Don't fret about it... a lot of so-called Americans feel the same way that you do.

They are being screwed by the system.

What they don't understand is that they are weak and have brought it on themselves.

Don't get upset about it... if History is any lesson, it will balance itself out soon enough.

Don’t be upset, Biden proving me right isn’t something I’m happy about either. No surprises, his campaign is “freedom” what a lovey word that is.

a reply to: ketsuko


It comes down to what you are prepared to trade.

You can trade some of your freedom to do a job in exchange for money to buy food, shelter and nice things...You can trade some of your freedom to fit in with society and benefit from things like education, healthcare, a pension when you are old in exchange for taxes and obeying the laws...or you can choose the freedom of the outlaw and have no part of being in that society, forego everything, for instance, buy a yacht and sail off in it, you need only negotiate with society if you want to land anywhere.

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ketsuko


It comes down to what you are prepared to trade.

You can trade some of your freedom to do a job in exchange for money to buy food, shelter and nice things...You can trade some of your freedom to fit in with society and benefit from things like education, healthcare, a pension when you are old in exchange for taxes and obeying the laws...or you can choose the freedom of the outlaw and have no part of being in that society, forego everything, for instance, buy a yacht and sail off in it, you need only negotiate with society if you want to land anywhere.

Sort of like the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Just because you have something, it does not mean that you know what it is, or how to use it.

a reply to: greendust

Freedom is asking a hot chick to accompany me on a dinner date, and she says no.

Freedom is a choice to comply or consent to be governed by laws that restrict personal choice.

Either everyone is sovereign, or noone is.

a reply to: SprocketUK

You are discussing liberty.

Those who talk about social contracts abhor liberty. They want us bound without ever being able to decide to walk away and go off the the grid.

I may not ever take that option, most wouldn't, but it should always be mine to make. There is no social contract that I ever signed. I agree to work with society until it is no longer a mutually beneficial arrangement.

That is liberty.

a reply to: ketsuko

Liberty is a synonym of freedom.

This side of the pond we have a few people who "go on about social contracts" and most of them are unwritten and in their eyes these people are governed by assumed consent. They often claim to be 'freemen' since there's no documentation to be seen.

In the US you pledge to a flag from a very young age, couldn't that be construed as consent?

Anyways, my point is it's interesting what the US has worked on in regards of defining differences between liberty and freedom. In the UK and elsewhere there's serious consequences if a person were to attempt living naturally since within our law everything has ownership and the things one would need to acquire to live naturally could be in breach of many long-standing laws, which are often backed up by rights. Think animal rights, land rights or pollution laws.

Doesn't stop the individual from deciding to go fishing or burn some trees, maybe hunt a deer. We have access to freedom but we also have consequences for the actions. I imagine the US has similar issues depending where you live.

From my perspective liberty is a right. Freedom isn't. Rights are negotiable? I'd think so since liberty can be taken away but freedom can be a state of mind...

I've talked to a few lifers over the years, some of them expressed more freedom than the average Joe.

a reply to: RAY1990

Synonyms are very similar but can have small and profound differences in meaning and contextual usage.

To me, when progressives discuss freedom, they're discussing more superficial things like how you look and act and the absence of responsibility.

Liberty is the absence of restraint with all the responsibility it entails. I can do the meth and if I end up an addict, it's fully on me. That is liberty. Society has no responsibility to pick up my pieces.

There is little appetite for liberty.

You could say that freedom is gaming with endless reloads courtesy of society while liberty isgaming on ironman.

a reply to: ketsuko

Synonyms are very similar but can have small and profound differences in meaning and contextual usage.

I know, hence my mentioning of the differences between societies and how we interpret language or even build upon concepts. It's a big world full of diversity in ways of thinking.

Liberty is the absence of restraint with all the responsibility it entails. I can do the meth and if I end up an addict, it's fully on me. That is liberty. Society has no responsibility to pick up my pieces.

That's an illegal practice in the US so you're not exactly at liberty to do such things. Free to a certain extent. Has the the work done on meanings changed all that much? It wouldn't appear so.

You could say that freedom is gaming with endless reloads courtesy of society while liberty isgaming on ironman.

It's also the ability to switch the game off at any given moment for any frivolous reason. What happens to freedom and liberty if a person expresses the wish to stop?

Sounds like you're looking at this from a US-centric POV I'm just pointing out that context and interpretation will vary depending on the mind, which is often defined by the culture it is found within.

a reply to: [post=26978738]RAY199Ironman.

We are talking about the meaning of words. I explained what the shades of meaning are to me from what I take away in context.

I am sorry if you thought my descriptions were "real".

Although I am curious how we even know what meth, meth addicts, meth face, etc., even look like if the existence of the law was enough to stop people?

If that were all it took, the pen would be the biggest tyrant of all.

"I'd rather live with dangerous freedom than secure slavery."
-Internet

a reply to: ketsuko

We are talking about the meaning of words. I explained what the shades of meaning are to me from what I take away in context.

I know, hence my attempt at explaining that thought processes are intrinsically linked with language and culture. We share a language but our cultures have differences.

I am sorry if you thought my descriptions were "real".

I didn't. To me freedom is an illusion, I try not to repeat myself.

Although I am curious how we even know what meth, meth addicts, meth face, etc., even look like if the existence of the law was enough to stop people?

I think I quoted Plato earlier...
Perception around good and bad is an individual thing although influence plays a strong role. It's why I attempted to elevate the discussion to one of the more difficult questions humanity asks of itself.