Another Dark Tech Video The Most Brutal Beast of German Warfare

Ironically it doesn't look like it will replace the Leopard 2 in Germany but will be available to export to other countries, or that's what the video suggests. Not surprisingly they want to build a plant in Ukraine.

building-tech.org... stvu-tankov-panther-kf51

After over 40 years, Germany is finally bringing more firepower to its tanks program.

In 2022, Rheinmetall Defense unveiled its bold new creation: the Kettenfahrzeug 51, a lightweight tank expected to set new standards in lethality, survivability, and mobility.

Also known as the Panther, the main battle tank is bristling with all the most up-to-date technology in the market, including a much larger main gun, a digital computer backbone, and a state-of-the-art suite of defensive features.

After stunning more than one at a military hardware show in Europe's Eurosatory defense exhibit, the tank prompted much speculation and controversy, leaving many to wonder if it will replace Germany's current tank arsenal if it will be used only for exports, or even if such a tank is needed at all in today’s world…

German tanks will single handedly win the war for Ukraine!

...NVM...

originally posted by: putnam6
Not surprisingly they want to build a plant in Ukraine.

The same Ukraine Russia has air superiority over? That probably won't go the way they are envisioning it...

I find it odd they would name it that.

a reply to: JAY1980

They don't have air superiority.

Ukraine's Air Force is still flying missions


www.airandspaceforces.com...#:~:text=%E2%80%9CRussia's%20failure%20to%20gain%20air,15.



"Russia’s failure to gain air superiority has meant its forces have had to engage targets in Ukraine from long range, with extensive use made of cruise missiles and other weapons,” the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) wrote in its annual Military Balance report, released Feb. 15. “Air forces on both sides have suffered losses. Russia in 2022 lost some 6–8 percent of its active tactical combat aircraft inventory, but overall fleet size somewhat masks the loss to some individual types, including reductions reaching 10-15 percent for some pre-war active multirole and ground-attack aircraft fleets.”

Well, Military Industrial Complex... business is booming!

I thought about leaving that as the entire post, but I hate one-line posts that don't really address the topic.

I wonder which other countries are hard at work to develop and market "exportable" weapon systems now that the Ukraine has become the "new" Afghanistan...

Those poor people.

Is peace is such an ugly word?

I guess it is if your are hell bent of revenge and tit-for-tat carnage that only other 'little people" suffer.

It reminds me of all the concept cars they used to show at car shows. You know the ones that looked like something out of the Jetsons. It's one off, the chances of that becoming a major battle formation is, let me think,,,, ZERO. I really like the diesel motor. How will that work in 5 years time when governments are dropping petrol and diesel. I wont go into how Germany would produce this tank when they can only just afford energy for their population.

a reply to: putnam6

Got me at "or used for export".

I mean, maybe this is badassery by war standards (sarcasm) but when you build something like this to sell, you know the world took a wrong turn somewhere. Expose for war. Ironman couldn't be closer to the truth. Are we selling sports cars or are we selling weapons of death and destruction?

I'll take the carbon fiber trim and the blood red pinstripes please...


We need to end the reign of these people!

originally posted by: Maxmars
Well, Military Industrial Complex... business is booming!

I thought about leaving that as the entire post, but I hate one-line posts that don't really address the topic.

I wonder which other countries are hard at work to develop and market "exportable" weapon systems now that the Ukraine has become the "new" Afghanistan...

Those poor people.

Is peace is such an ugly word?

I guess it is if your are hell bent of revenge and tit-for-tat carnage that only other 'little people" suffer.

The MIC aspect is a definite burr in my boot, I think about its influence here in the US all the time but I would imagine it's influence in Europe maybe even more powerful than here in the states.

Regardless the Dark Dark video then served a purpose, it shows the MIC is indeed healthy elsewhere too. Wonder if Otto has stock in the company?

originally posted by: crayzeed
It reminds me of all the concept cars they used to show at car shows. You know the ones that looked like something out of the Jetsons. It's one off, the chances of that becoming a major battle formation is, let me think,,,, ZERO. I really like the diesel motor. How will that work in 5 years time when governments are dropping petrol and diesel. I wont go into how Germany would produce this tank when they can only just afford energy for their population.

FWIW Id check the company's stock price especially the last 6 months

As a long time armor amateur it's a good looking beast but it does sound ridiculously expensive and complex at the same time. Did they not learn anything from Russia in WW 2 with their cheap and expendable T34s? Where these designs usually fail is in the field during test conditions. Works great except if sand is blowing and clogs up air intakes, or during fog when range finders go whacky or on ice when the tread design becomes a liability. We'll see what the future holds but given the lethality of smaller munitions and prevalence of drones on the battlefield I wouldn't hold out too much hope for it.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
As a long time armor amateur it's a good looking beast but it does sound ridiculously expensive and complex at the same time. Did they not learn anything from Russia in WW 2 with their cheap and expendable T34s? Where these designs usually fail is in the field during test conditions. Works great except if sand is blowing and clogs up air intakes, or during fog when range finders go whacky or on ice when the tread design becomes a liability. We'll see what the future holds but given the lethality of smaller munitions and prevalence of drones on the battlefield I wouldn't hold out too much hope for it.

This is what happens when the MIC runs the wars, the parts, maintenance, and training for this alone would keep a team from Rheinmetall in every country and every base where this new battle tank is stationed.

Wasn't there a story about an American soldier on the phone with tech support for some weapons system, during the middle of a firefight?

That kind of customer service is superior and it isn't cheap.

Of course, they could have a special promo but 10 tanks and get 2 free hours of tech support.

Listen to this video sales pitch, this isn't Germany against the US its Rheinmetall vs General Dynamics. Nothing wrong with it, I do think it allows the west to hopefully develop better weapons systems as if no other reason we have various teams working on the answer for the problem. But it is still live in the field battle test if they can produce some in time

It's also ironic that durability and ease of maintenance aren't enough to save the A-10 in the skies of a 2023 war, but some expect a less sophisticated Main Battle Tank to still be the top dog in ground warfare. Though I am inclined to believe it is indeed a better strategy on the ground than in the air. Because at some point you have better have a surplus of trained crews, especially in the situation in Ukraine, where tanks are important but so is a veteran crew to run them.



Support: Reach Back Reliance In Ukraine. Very cool article about the "tech support" aspect now happening in Ukraine.

www.strategypage.com...

The current enhancement was the addition of group video software (like Zoom) so that groups of Ukrainians could participate in a tutorial by someone outside Ukraine on how to use, maintain or repair some new bit of equipment. The Ukrainians have been very resourceful and inventive themselves and recognized the enhanced reachback capability as yet another way to make their military more effective than the Russians.

Reachback has been heavily used by American forces for over two decades. This has been the case even when the United States has very few troops on the ground in places like Iraq and Syria. In those situations, the Americans had to be resourceful finding targets for the coalition (of NATO, Arab and other allied warplanes) to attack from above. Just because the attacks are being made with precision munitions does not eliminate the risk of civilian casualties. There have been few of these, and none are ignored on the ground because Arab Islamic terrorists will invent them if they can to rally more support to their cause. There have been so few civilian casualties because the coalition used new American intelligence techniques. This system uses many analysts based anywhere (often the United States) carefully examining the aircraft and UAV video and still photos for information that identifies Islamic terrorists and any nearby civilians. This is not easy just using overhead video and some electronic intercepts. The analysts do have software and electronic tools to get more out of the images and electronic chatter. Within minutes, hours or days the analysts can provide highly accurate (and safe from the possibility of civilian casualties) GPS coordinates. Sometimes armed UAVs or aircraft are already overhead, waiting to be directed to a specific target.

This concept, which the U.S. began developing in the 1990s and used with increasing frequency after September 11, 2001 was called reachback. Originally this meant that some parts of a unit ordered overseas would remain in the United States, and use Internet-like communications capabilities to do their work from their home base. Sending fewer people overseas is a major advantage, as it means less transportation, and supply effort is needed. Since the 1990s it has been noted that modern communications make it practical for some support units to stay behind, with no loss in effectiveness in the entire unit. Reservists make for better reachback troops, because they have to go through more additional combat training before being sent overseas. Moreover, the reservists can be taken on and off active duty, as the workload changes.

Rheinmetall's Panther KF51 seems to be an export design, or possibly an interim design, as Germany is already committed to working with the French for a new main battle tank (the Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) Programme). That programme's been going on since the early 2010s and will replace Germany's Leopard 2s and France's Leclercs by around 2035.

Or, I guess Rheinmetall is hedging their bets because working with the French on military projects can be tricky, so good to have a design ready should MGCS go sour.

Awesome tank, but I was concerned by the survivability aspect of having hatches covered over by the upper section of the tank when it is compromised in certain positions, blocking the hatch with potentially no alternative escape being possible. It gave me a rather dark thought that these designers simply don't care enough about the tank crews, knowing they're 'easily replaceable' if the tank itself is crippled & its crew trapped inside. Build another tank, send a few recruits into a simulator for a few weeks, and away they go. I'm certain that I'm hugely over-simplifying it, but as a person who is interested in design as a 'semi-professional' innovator, I know for a fact that if I began working on a tank design, the first priority I would have would be the safety of the crew, their survivability prospects being as high as possible. Designing a turret that blocks the escape hatch is the most absurd, ridiculous & stupid design flaw I've ever heard of. Just saying.

Also, I watched a good Netflix documentary a while ago which I would recommend to all members & viewers partaking in this thread - 'The Age of Tanks'. It highlights the entire progression of armoured tanks from WW1 to the present day, very interesting in & of itself. The filmmakers came to the conclusion that in light of modern warfare techniques, such as the use of drones, the 'age of tanks' may have come to a conclusion, there may simply be no role left for them to play on the majority of modern battlefields. Unless the rest of the Europeans start hammering each other again, though I'm fairly sure that won't happen.

Unless the whole world is gripped by a fever dream of irrational hatred & delusion. Errrm...