Michigan GOP panned for likening gun control legislation to Holocaust

Found this Associated Press news report regarding outcry at the Michigan Republican Party's comparison of gun control legislation to the Holocaust:
abcnews.go.com...

I remember that the argument laid out by former doctor Ben Carson in his book A More Perfect Union that Nazi gun control laws played a special role in bringing about the Holocaust has been rebuked by historians on the grounds that no serious work of scholarship on the Nazi dictatorship or on the causes of the Holocaust features Nazi gun control measures as a significant factor. The social media posts by the Michigan Republican Party denouncing the gun safety package introduced by Michigan State Democrats in response to two major school shootings in the US over the span of 15 months as being comparable to the Holocaust is utterly ridiculous because gun control legislation only seeks to tamp down on gun violence, not take away all people's guns.

a reply to: Potlatch

Ben Carson may be retired, but he still retains the title of 'doctor'.

As far as 'gun control' most crimes are committed with illegally procured guns. That, combined with not incarcerating criminals or giving them minimal sentences may be a factor in the gun violence problem.

If you're not going to be tough on crime it stands to reason crime will continue to increase.

a reply to: Potlatch

Agreed. Refering to gun legislation as akin to Nazi dictatorship is just like those far leftists that call every Trump Supporter and conservative a Nazi.

Calling everything you don't like a "Nazi" dilutes real totalitarianism, dictatorships, and nazis.

This only showcase how both sides are full of idiots that can't have real discussions and debate.

a reply to: nugget1

Many times, illegally procured guns are attained through indirect legal means.

Legal gun sales to mexico arming the cartels

It's not like criminals get their guns from illegal gun manufactoring companies. The guns are made legally, sold legally, and then eventually make their way to criminals.

Just blaming criminals and asking to be "tough on crime" is not really a progressive awnser to the problem.

a reply to: Potlatch

I remember that the argument laid out by former doctor Ben Carson in his book A More Perfect Union that Nazi gun control laws played a special role in bringing about the Holocaust has been rebuked by historians on the grounds that no serious work of scholarship on the Nazi dictatorship or on the causes of the Holocaust features Nazi gun control measures as a significant factor.

Dr. Carson's PHD not withstanding I suppose, you don't need a historian to tell you that fewer arms in the hands of people you wish to subjugate and commit genocide against is optimal. Furthermore, you can look at the infamous quote made by Japanese Admiral Yamamoto: "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Even if you don't want to apply logic or an enemies verbal statement, we still have a 2nd amendment.

The social media posts by the Michigan Republican Party denouncing the gun safety package introduced by Michigan State Democrats in response to two major school shootings in the US over the span of 15 months as being comparable to the Holocaust is utterly ridiculous because gun control legislation only seeks to tamp down on gun violence, not take away all people's guns.

Sure, I'll agree to the hyperbole stated. However that doesn't mean that they get to sugarcoat infringements of our Constitutional rights as "gun safety" or "gun control"

Murder is already illegal.

More laws don't magically fix things.

The thing is, gun control legislation was part of the Holocaust. That's just an historical fact, until history is re-written, of course.

If gun control advocates are upset about an historical fact, then that's their choice. I'm not going to argue. I fully support their right to feel any way they want about any thing they want.

If gun control advocates are upset about being compared with Nazis, then I have to ask: Is this your first time? Nobody wants to compared with Nazis, but it happens a lot.

But here's another historical fact. Not every Nazi was a bad person. There were a lot of good people pre-war Germany. But step by step, a lot of good people made the same mistake. They assumed that the vision of their government was best for the country. They overlooked the decline in their freedoms thinking it was best for the country. Eventually, when the government told them they no freedoms, they didn't have the freedom to disagree.

I can appreciate and respect those who want to do something to curb gun violence. How can you not? But we have to be leery of a government that says, "We can have weapons, but you can't." Government passes gun control laws to curb gun violence. Gun violence increases. Government says we need to pass more laws. Rinse and repeat. It's obvious that the end goal is all weapons are in the hands of government and criminals, and you can be shot for having a toothpick in your pocket.

So before you get upset about being compared to Nazis, ask yourself, "How much do I trust this government?" Has your government proved itself to be honest? Has your quality of life improved under your government? Do you have more or less rights and personal freedom than you did 10 years ago?

I don't have a solution to gun violence. But the government's solutions aren't working because we still have the same problem. They actually say, "Well, this probably won't work, but we've got to do something!" I'm sorry, but I wouldn't accept that from anyone I was paying to do a job. What we really need is someone to analyze the problem and look for common factors. Anecdotally, it seems to me that there has been a huge uptick in senseless violence every since COVID was in full swing. Stupid stuff, like pushing a random stranger on a subway track, sucker punches at little league games, etc. I can't be the only one who has noticed that.

Are the vaccines or lockdowns a factor in the increase in violence? I don't know, but maybe someone should look into it. Maybe we need to re-examine the assumption that guns are the problem, because so far, this assumption has not led us to a working solution.

originally posted by: Turquosie
a reply to: nugget1

Many times, illegally procured guns are attained through indirect legal means.

Legal gun sales to mexico arming the cartels

It's not like criminals get their guns from illegal gun manufactoring companies. The guns are made legally, sold legally, and then eventually make their way to criminals.

Just blaming criminals and asking to be "tough on crime" is not really a progressive awnser to the problem.

Thank you for a respectful and honest discussion on this hot-button topic, but you do know its political aspect is one reason we don't see our government trying different solutions, instead, neither side wants to compromise and both want all or nothing.

You are partially correct but even those purchasing for others are breaking the law. Don't get me wrong we can definitely do better than we are currently doing. I've got a daughter and niece who are both teachers, their family is extremely concerned and every time we hear of a school shooting, we stop and watch the news.

I am afraid the reality is if we could snap our fingers and have every legal gun taken from every legal gun owner, the murder rate for the next ten years would still be embarrassingly high. In any country, the black market sales would go through the roof, but especially in a country like America. While stricter incarceration terms stop an individual, with drugs and gangs the is an endless supply to replace them. But if the snippet below is true, a complete ban isn't likely to stop the suicides which as of now account for more gun deaths than homicides and accidents.

A ban isn't going to end all gun deaths. Because respectfully most of those suicides and homicides will happen and even the accidents there is no way of knowing how many illegal guns were ones that a kid found and there was an accident. Even a ban is going to be a limited partial solution for years if not decades before America can be weaned off its gun habit. we got to understand parts of America both rural-urban and suburban are still wild dangerous places.

It has to be a multifaceted approach and we need to realize we need to just try some possible partial solutions to see what could work and what doesn't. Signs saying "gun-free zone" is just not cutting it. Honestly, I'm thinking MP trainees or vets in conjunction with local police. Is something that could be done now and perhaps we could see if it was effective or not. Metal detectors as well all with screening well outside the school buildings, especially in high-risk areas.

usafacts.org...

Firearm deaths
Firearm deaths include all deaths involving guns, such as homicide, suicide, and accidents. More people in the US die from suicide involving a firearm than homicides or accidents.
There were a total of 45,222 firearm deaths in the US in 2020, an increase of 14% or 5,155 firearm deaths from 2019.

We have lots of issues in America, likely solvable issues that have many more deaths than that. and we really need to work on mental health NOW.

www.pbs.org...

In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."

The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.

Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is through family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.

Someone who knew about subjugating people once said:

"To conquer a nation, First disarm it's citizens." -Adolf Hitler

And then the little saying by Mao who thought, "all power comes out of the barrel of a gun" seems to come to mind anytime they want to ban law abiding citizens from owning and protecting themselves with fire arms. Most of the Asia countries made it impossible for citizens to own arms and with just a brief look at history both recent and past should tell anyone concerned to have the mind set of "Come and get them!"

Oh and the idea of bring an Axe to a gun fight !

Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
Are the vaccines or lockdowns a factor in the increase in violence?

Might as well blame them. I'm pretty sure vaccines did 9/11 at this point.

a reply to: Potlatch

Holocaust, Holodomor, holograms.
I honestly pictured being this deep into the "21st century" being paradisaical with spaceships.

I went out searching, looking for one good man
A spirit who would not bend or break
Who would sit at his father's right hand.
I went out walking with a Bible and a gun
The Word of God lay heavy on my heart
I was sure I was the one

- Johnny Cash, The Wanderer

Saint Luke, 22:36-38

a reply to: [post=26934064]Potlatch[/post

It will not tamp down any more gun violence.
And the comparison did make a point, as if the Dems had their way, they would take our guns. Just ask one.

We have plenty of laws, that could work.
But, they have to be enforced.
You know, like the MSU SHOOTING WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED, IF THE INGHAM COUNTY PROSICUTER WAS NOT AN IDIOT.

But for some reason, nobody wants to go after her.

originally posted by: Turquosie
a reply to: nugget1

Many times, illegally procured guns are attained through indirect legal means.

Legal gun sales to mexico arming the cartels

It's not like criminals get their guns from illegal gun manufactoring companies. The guns are made legally, sold legally, and then eventually make their way to criminals.

Just blaming criminals and asking to be "tough on crime" is not really a progressive awnser to the problem.

Operation Fast and Furious

originally posted by: Potlatch
I remember that the argument laid out by former doctor Ben Carson

As has been explained, he is still a Doctor, not sure why you chose to denigrate him in such a manner - maybe you just don't like people with dark skin?

in his book A More Perfect Union that Nazi gun control laws played a special role in bringing about the Holocaust has been rebuked by historians on the grounds that no serious work of scholarship on the Nazi dictatorship or on the causes of the Holocaust features Nazi gun control measures as a significant factor.

No 'serious work of scholarship'??? You mean, no group that is responsible for not just towing, but creating and even managing the government'a propaganda machine/narrative?

As to whether or not it was a 'significant factor', I guess that depends on whether or not you understand that the very first thing that every tyrant that has ever existed has done is disarm the populace before implementing their tyrannical regime.

The social media posts by the Michigan Republican Party denouncing the gun safety package introduced by Michigan State Democrats in response to two major school shootings in the US over the span of 15 months as being comparable to the Holocaust is utterly ridiculous because gun control legislation only seeks to tamp down on gun violence, not take away all people's guns.

Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight - and if you really believe that, I have a bridge for sale... CHEAP!