France = "Little USSR"

"Just like big cities often have their own peculiar neighborhoods -- Little Italy, Chinatown, Greek Town, etc. -- the EU has its own Little USSR. It's called France.

In my country, anti-free-trade policies are up front and collectivist dogma is repeated ad nauseam. Consider the statement made by French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin at the EU's spring economic summit on March 22: "The French society as a whole rejects the Anglo-Saxon financial model since its main feature lies in an excessive hold of markets on economic life and does not pay enough attention to human being and social cohesion."

Recently, Jean-Marie Cavada, a well-known French MEP from the center-right who was formerly a popular TV presenter, went so far as to proclaim that Europe needs a "social economy for the market". This echoes French President Jacques Chirac vilifying economic liberalism by saying, at the end of the summit, that this system cannot be possibly sustained."

www.techcentralstation.com...

OH my gawd, I am so shocked and amazed as such a concept. France and "Communisim"?

If they want socialism let them have it. When their already shacky economy crumbles even further, we can say, I told you so.

Its true that even the right wing has quite a leftist discourse in France. But Chirac and his government are in a difficult situation. In the last elections, the preliminary run-offs resulted in a fractionalized left, which led the right (Chirac) and the extreme right (Le Pen, you could think of him as the French equivalent to the KKK's leader) to the final elections. So, Chirac was voted in power by an 80% vote.

However, if the last regional elections sweep by the socialists are any indicator, he's ruling a country that is much further to the left than he is. So, is he just adopting socialist styled discourse to keep the protesting French from hitting the streets again?

When he says that he rejects the Anglo-American financial model, the French hear that as protection for their culture's cafes and small shops from Starbucks and Walmart. But isn't this understandable, and shouldn't the Republic make its own decisions about these matters? Its not forcefully communist to think that capitalism should be limited in some way.

I think a middle model bewteen the extreme capitalism of the US and the Marx's communism is available. In today's day and age, the government is responsible for a large amount of infrastructure (not as much as in France, maybe), and the economy is dependant upon this infrastructure. While capitalism is undoubtedly the strongest force for generating wealth on our planet, its weakness include the rise of corporatism and a tendancy to increase the imbalance of wealth.

Many European nations have adopted this leftist capitalism to meet basic needs for all citizens (shelter, food, water, electricity): Norway, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Spain, and to a lesser extent, France and Germany.

After these provisions, provided out of simple decency and compassion on a societal level. I would actually prefer to pay the 69.4 percent taxes I pay to the French government and know that my healthcare is free and that I am helping to take care of my fellow, less fortunate brothers and sisters in humanity. My experiences in the states were paying considerably lower taxes, but meeting homeless veterans in the streets, seeing the price of a top-tier education, and seeing that 49 cents out of every federal tax dollar supports the country's bloated military budget!

France has to choose how far left of American capitalism it wants to place itself, but it is France's choice as a democracy. My inclination is that the privatizations I've seen since my arrival in Paris two years ago will not be so effective. To stimulate the French economy and take into account the reality of a class of high income worker that is highly mobile between countries, a decrease in taxes offset by major reforms of the governments forty-something different ministries to increase administrative efficiency would be the best move, I think.

I can assure you that France is not communist. It more democratic than the US because it has political diversity. There are 12 or more notable political parties in France. The leftists in the US are forced to settle for a democrat in its majoritarian system, while third or fourth parties are not included.

I wonder how many tens of thousands of elderly the
French will allow to die this summer? If that happened
here in America you know the moonbats there would
be jumping up and down about satanic America.
July is just 3 months away ... wonder if France has done
ANYTHING to stop the mass deaths of those poor elderly
who can't help themselves?????

(yeah, their system is better alright! )

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
Its true that even the right wing has quite a leftist discourse in France. But Chirac and his government are in a difficult situation. In the last elections, the preliminary run-offs resulted in a fractionalized left, which led the right (Chirac) and the extreme right (Le Pen, you could think of him as the French equivalent to the KKK's leader) to the final elections. So, Chirac was voted in power by an 80% vote.

*snip*

Do you think that America and France will ever improve our relations? By the way, I hope so.

EDITED to shorten quote of complete post

[edit on 10-4-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

I sure hope we improve our relations. People here often debate ifs it is a historical divide since Iraq or just a minor difficulty. Officially the relations have gone very well. Mostly, I think there's a part of the human mind that gains pleasure in looking down on other people, and the Republican party used the French (or rather their strawman version of the French) to mock at their convention last year. For me, this is fueling the fire and flagrantly irresponsible of this political party.

If America continues to throw around its weight as a hyperpower, relations with most foreign countries are going to deline. I would say this is true for France as well. Americans would do well to realize that from a foreigner's perspective, the we're-the-biggest-and-best-mentality comes off as a (potentially dangerous) global bully. This policy combined with lies about WMD's, Guantanimo Bay, and Abu Gharib is enough to put Europe on edge about Bush's intentions and methods. The PNAC is the embodiment of these bullies force in the government, so I wouldn't count on the current administration to heal Euro-American relations in any sort of real way.

Leaders will always smile and swear relations are good for trade reasons.

I think a real change in the way French society at large views Pro-Bush Americans (because there is a sense comradery with the anti-Bush Americans ) would take a very different president and foreign policy. For anti-French Americans to change their views, it takes an open mind, lots of questioning and compassion, true honesty to oneself. I believe the anti-French are merely being led to those conclusions by their government and not their sense of reason because its convenient for manipulation.

So, if the presidency went to the Democrats in 2008, and the new president made lots of efforts to rebuild the relationship, I think both parties would heal. The government would lead the ultra-patriots away from the hatred against France, and France would appreciate a less hegemonic world order.

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
For anti-French Americans to change their views, it takes ..

something that France just isn't capable of. France has to get
over itself. Poor Chirac thinks that France is the center of the world
and it isn't. France thinks America needs to be socialist and european
like them. We DON'T! My ancestors left Europe, I don't want to be
European ... not in the least. That's something that has to change
within France, before any of us anti-French-government Americans
will change our views of your government.

Yet again another anti-france/UN/EU/anyone who isnt my lapdog style thread
How come anyone america doesnt like gets dubbed a "comunsit"? There's nothing wrong with comunism...

Nothing more than an OP/ED piece that is pure diatribe. France in the enlightenment was one of the leading intellectual countries promoting economic liberalism and meritocracy. Even at the conclusion of the French revolution ending in the napoleonic era, Jefferson in his letters made it apparent for his distaste for napoleon but was more concerned of the return of the old order.

Welfare statist and socialist policies in our times can be drawn as a reaction to great periods of war and suffering (i.e wwi, wwii) and this can be seen all around europe and even in the US.

While I will agree France is in need of reform to make itself more internationally competitive and to kickstart a healthy growth rate, I find myself growing weary of the generalising of the word socialist to equal communist.

The fact is here that most of you if not all of you agree with many socialist policies, so do not be so quick to denounce them. Socialism is not one system, it is not marxist-leninism, it is not marxism, socialism encompasses a broad spectrum of beliefs and models. If you wish to denounce something you disagree with, denounce marxist-leninism or welfare-statism. Socialism means many things to many people's and it has many different definitions.

If they want socialism let them have it. When their already shacky economy crumbles even further, we can say, I told you so

The US is a socialist country in that it has many socialist policies, though not to the same extent as the welfare states of europe and the rest of the first world.

France and "Communisim"?

France doesnt have communism, as in that their isnt collective ownership of the economy or in the marxist-leninist view (as you would be coming from) as in that the market isnt centrally controlled by the state and the mode of production in the hands of the state. It is a market economy and has many prominent corporations and multi-nationals. Most of the country is employed in the private sector. It's level of protectionism in some circumstances however and the large state bureaucracy (i'm not one to call France minimalist :lol

All states practice protectionism in some form or shape, because that is what many people or interest groups believe in. The US is also guilty of protectionism, if you wish to look into a recent case is a dispute between many nations and the US at the world bank because of US protectionism and the 'Byrd Amendment', which will have trouble getting repealed because it is something that may be in the best interests of the constituents of the elected officials.

I wonder how many tens of thousands of elderly the
French will allow to die this summer? If that happened
here in America you know the moonbats there would
be jumping up and down about satanic America.

July is just 3 months away ... wonder if France has done
ANYTHING to stop the mass deaths of those poor elderly
who can't help themselves?????

This is a favourite of those who love to pick at France and find fault with their healthcare system. By no means perfect, it is rated by the WHO to be superior of that to the United States. Also, many medical professionals (and including medical experts on FOX News) have commented that the US wouldn't of been able to handle this any better and would of been likely to of been worse to handle such crises if given the same circumstances. In countries like US and Australia, air conditioners are commonplace to make really hot days bearable for comfort and for the elderly. However in France such heat isnt a common occurance and a major factor to these deaths was that it a) wasnt a common yearly occurance to have such high temperatures and b)home air conditioning isn't commonplace in France due to the relatively cool temperature.

something that France just isn't capable of. France has to get over itself. Poor Chirac thinks that France is the center of the world
and it isn't

The French people are a very proud people, and may seem arrogant. They have a long proud history and pride themselves on their national sense of culture and sophistication. Honour is very important to them and it shows. They are a lot like the US in these respects. Isn't it funny that those who are most alike can hate eachother the most. You are making a lot of generalisations as well, that are your opinions drawn from biased reporting of France (good news about france doesnt sell in the US, it's much more profitable to publish the latest outrage by the french). France is important as it has a lot of influence in many african nations and its former colonies. It also is a player in the EU bloc of nations. It has a seat on the UN security council. It has nuclear weapons. It has a 1.6 trillion dollar economy, one of the largest and most technologically advanced in the world. The list goes on.

This diatribe really doesnt help IMO, if we want a better world this is gotta stop and we gotta give eachother credit where credit is due and not find fault with everything.

thanks,
drfunk



[edit on 8-4-2005 by drfunk]

The Dr exposes his pathetic anti-Europe/EU/France/Germany mentality once again.

It's rather ridiculous, sad and getting very very boring Doc.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Poor Chirac thinks that France is the center of the world
and it isn't. France thinks America needs to be socialist and european
like them. We DON'T! My ancestors left Europe, I don't want to be
European ... not in the least. That's something that has to change
within France, before any of us anti-French-government Americans
will change our views of your government.

For someone who once stated in a post that you were a "psychologist", why do your posts very often come across as written by a simpleton?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
France thinks America needs to be socialist and european
like them. We DON'T! My ancestors left Europe, I don't want to be
European ... not in the least.

And aren't posters like DrHoracid saying that France needs to be conservative and American like the U.S.? Because that seems to be a big part of the criticism levelled at France. They don't want to become Americans no more than the Americans want to become Europeans, expect a lot of Americans are baffled by that "rejection" of the Anglo-Saxon economic/cultural model. "Damn, they don't want to be like the U.S., how could anybody not want to be like us Americans?"

Originally posted by FlyersFanThat's something that has to change within France, before any of us anti-French-government Americans
will change our views of your government.

Given what kind of criticism I've heard from Americans regarding French policies (it goes from trade deals with countries the U.S. disapproves of, to opposing the war on Iraq, to having air controllers to speak French in France's airspace), I take your statement to mean that France should put the United States' national interests before its own national interests.

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
I think a real change in the way French society at large views Pro-Bush Americans (because there is a sense comradery with the anti-Bush Americans ) would take a very different president and foreign policy. For anti-French Americans to change their views, it takes an open mind, lots of questioning and compassion, true honesty to oneself. I believe the anti-French are merely being led to those conclusions by their government and not their sense of reason because its convenient for manipulation.

So, if the presidency went to the Democrats in 2008, and the new president made lots of efforts to rebuild the relationship, I think both parties would heal. The government would lead the ultra-patriots away from the hatred against France, and France would appreciate a less hegemonic world order.

It's funny, but it seems that you left out the anti-AMERICAN French. You make them sound so justified, you package everything into a nice neat little anti-Bush package. I'm sorry, but the FRENCH have hated AMERICA looooooooong before they even knew who his father was.

I was doing buisness in France during the Clinton years. Your people were still rude to me for no reason once they heard my accent. They still gave me dirty looks and said nasty things to each other about me, thinking that niether I, nor anyone I was with could understand a word they were saying. I'll tell you what, when I hear someone speaking in French in the US if I say anything at all it is usually in French to try to keep up my fading bilingual skills and it would ALWAYS be nice and friendly.

Do not try to make it out as if "Right wing nut jobs hate France for no reason, and the French just dislike Bush and his followers". That is not so. The French disslike us more then we could ever disslike them, and have since well before Bush took office.

Frankly, I find the whole French attitude complete hypocricy. They cry that the US is arrogant. Well guess what - the French are every bit as arrogant as we are, and probably more so. The French are every bit as currupt and fallable as we are. It's just plain funny to hear them talk about how we went to Iraq only for oil, only to find out the reason they object so much is secret illegal oil deals with Saddam.

As for French anti-Americanism, I'm not pretending that it doesn't exist.

Mad Man, I am an American myself. "My people" here in Paris really haven't given me a single bit of trouble over my nationality in the two years I have been here. In fact, at the times I am most frustrated about my country, it is usually a French person that reminds me about the redeeming qualities of Anglo-American culture.

Instead of just trying to justify our American arrogance by pointing at the French and saying "they've been hating us longer," we would do better to try to understand the French sentiment. I think that there are two important differences between the arrogance on the French side and on the American side. Both countries have been influential at periods in occidental history, so this sort of cultural arrogance might be expected. However, the US acts militarily upon this arrogance. This mediates the reality of the contemporary French perception of American hypocracy.

American Mad Man, you can generalize all you want about the French hating "us", but the French I see and talk politics with every week only have a problem with the right-wing nut-jobs. Then again, to see that, I guess you'd have to be a left-winger. Given that your screen name is "American Mad Man" I can somehow understand that you got the impression the French weren't so crazy about you when you visited the country. The nationalism you display in your screen name is questioned in France, and valorized in the US, for example. Just remember that you are only representative of 51% of the US, AMM. (hehe, its only that portion the French have beef with.)

Both countries could take a lesson from the other. I just wish the ego's of citizens (French or American) and their generalizations didn't block the path of communication quite so much.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Your people were still rude to me for no reason once they heard my accent. They still gave me dirty looks and said nasty things to each other about me, thinking that niether I, nor anyone I was with could understand a word they were saying. I'll tell you what, when I hear someone speaking in French in the US if I say anything at all it is usually in French to try to keep up my fading bilingual skills and it would ALWAYS be nice and friendly.

I know several Americans who have been to France and have no tales of horror to tell at all. I have another Belgian friend who has told me on numerous occassions that those Americans who claim the majority of France hates them is grossly exaggerating. I suspect people do that to justify their own hate for the French. Sure, there are plenty of bigots in France but probably more in the US, purely based on Per Capita. Generally it would be about the same as anywhere in the world.

AMM, perhaps it was you the "trigger happy cowboy" who they didn't like. Maybe you were just being loud, obnoxious and arrogant? We don't know, we weren't there. We can only go on how you present yourself in this forum.

Why do these other Americans have nothing but pleasant experiences in France, but yours was so terrible? Perhaps you went over there psyched up for some hostility, and as a result that is what you got.